Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

No, he's just using less power. He doesn't feel weaker in the sense that he actually lost that power. Beerus says the same thing in the movie. When Goku reverted from SSJG, he didn't get much weaker, but he reverted from SSJG to base and even SSJ Goku was below SSJG Goku.

Yes Goku absorbed SSJG. Not seeing your point. That doesn't mean that he possesses SSJG level power in all his forms.

Not really since Super Saiyan Goku performed better against Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku. The only thing Super Saiyan God did better was absorbing Beerus' final technique.

He would be beyond Super Saiyan God in most of his forms.

[Marlowe89]

Goku and Beerus nearly destroyed the planet during their spar in Episode 42, and Goku was in his base form. Destroying just a field as a Super Saiyan is holding back.

That's an extremely weak counterpoint. We've seen Goku fight with actual multitudes of more power than what he used in base against Beerus in Episode 42, with plenty of field destruction to boot, and the planet was never once mentioned to be in any danger during those specific fights. That was never an indicator of power in the series.

Meanwhile, Gohan complains that Goku is holding back and Goku responds by saying he was just testing Gohan moments before addressing his complaint by turning into a Super Saiyan. Nobody was holding back after this point and it's mind-numbingly obvious to everyone watching this that Goku and Gohan's sparring match becoming unrestrained -- to the point that both characters weren't even conscious of their own surroundings anymore -- was the whole context and intention of the scene.

The only reason you're even denying this is because it blatantly contradicts your viewpoint of the power scale.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Goku and Beerus nearly destroyed the planet during their spar in Episode 42, and Goku was in his base form. Destroying just a field as a Super Saiyan is holding back.

That's an extremely weak counterpoint. We've seen Goku fight with actual multitudes of more power than what he used in base against Beerus in Episode 42, with plenty of field destruction to boot, and the planet was never once mentioned to be in any danger during those specific fights. That was never an indicator of power in the series.

Meanwhile, Gohan complains that Goku is holding back and Goku responds by saying he was just testing Gohan moments before addressing his complaint by turning into a Super Saiyan. Nobody was holding back after this point and it's mind-numbingly obvious to everyone watching this that Goku and Gohan's sparring match becoming unrestrained -- to the point that both characters weren't even conscious of their own surroundings anymore -- was the whole context and intention of the scene.

The only reason you're even denying this is because it blatantly contradicts your viewpoint of the power scale.

Marlowe89, you are 100% right on everything. To anyone who is concerned about power scaling the Retcon Theory answers the questions that the One-Base Theory and Two-Base Theory couldn't. It is a good melding of the two. HeroR is just unwilling to even consider the other side of things. All he's doing is over-analyzing plainly obvious things.

SS Goku Pre-Retcon = SSGod Goku
SS Goku Post-Retcon = SS Goku Buu Saga
(Disincluding the few filler episodes after the U6 Tournament)

No, he's just using less power. He doesn't feel weaker in the sense that he actually lost that power. Beerus says the same thing in the movie. When Goku reverted from SSJG, he didn't get much weaker, but he reverted from SSJG to base and even SSJ Goku was below SSJG Goku.

Yes Goku absorbed SSJG. Not seeing your point. That doesn't mean that he possesses SSJG level power in all his forms.

Not really since Super Saiyan Goku performed better against Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku. The only thing Super Saiyan God did better was absorbing Beerus' final technique.

He would be beyond Super Saiyan God in most of his forms.

That's not canon. Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again. You're thinking of the Battle of Gods movie. The Battle of Gods sagas is canon.

[Marlowe89]

As I see it, either the two base theory is true or the retcon theory is true. There are literally no other alternatives at this point unless people would rather believe that Gohan is now God level, which is preposterous.

[ekrolo2]

As I see it, either the two base theory is true or the retcon theory is true. There are literally no other alternatives at this point unless people would rather believe that Gohan is now God level, which is preposterous.

I go with the retcon theory cause that's clearly what's happened here. In the same year F the movie came out and Toriyama started work on U6, he went from abandoning the golden line entirely and having Goku & Vegeta relatively close to Beerus in power to bringing the golden line of SS back and perpetually retconning Beerus into being leaps ahead of the two main characters. I believe this was done because the old tiers would've required the sudden appearance of a bunch of Beerus and even Whis tier opponents to challenge Goku & Vegeta and Toriyama clearly didn't like the feel of that.

[Animelover5487]

You know something strange about Kuririn being injured by the gun shot. In that same episode Kuririn is shown blitzing the Robbers speeding vehicle despite it being behind them and then dodging it in an instant. So this is a big inconsistency. The only cop out I can think of is if we treat it in the same vein as Sorbet's laser gun nearly killing Goku.

[Lord Beerus]

Yeah, I'm think gonna side with that Goku's power, outside of SSJB, got retconned hard back down to Majin Boo arc tier. That's the only real way I can see any kind of scenario like SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan fighting on level pegging making any kind of sense. I guess when Goku absorbed the power of SSJG into him it was only temporarily he managed to retain the power before it dissipated right after he fought Beerus. And at some point he and Vegeta learned how to tap into God ki while training with Whis. But the problem is that Whis' training in the matter of how to tap into and utilise Godly Ki itself is very vague. All Goku and Vegeta were taught about is not leaking their ki and controlling it to level where they could raise their strength greatly. That's it. Then they were sent into a Whis' staff which seemed to have an environment that simulated God ki and they trained in there. After that, there is no further elaboration or exactly when or how you tap into God ki.

Which then leads to the major inconsistency of how Super Saiyan Blue is truly attained. Goku's explanation to Freeza of how he obtained Super Saiyan Blue outright contradicts what Vegeta went through. Goku outright states when he became a Super Saiyan Blue, that the form was the result of a “Saiyan who’s a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”. Then when Vegeta attains the form, Goku explains that he just trained to achieve Super Saiyan Blue. Which make no sense because there is no indication he actually attained God ki prior to him transforming into a Super Saiyan Blue.

The anime seriously treads on its own toes far too often. I mean, you either have to believe that Goku lost his Godly ki after fighting Beerus, which is never implied, and gained it back after training in Whis' staff or that Goku was full of shit when explaining how he achieved Super Saiyan Blue. If they were truly tapping into God ki at any stage prior to to facing Golden Freeza, then they should have had a some kind of different aura when either sparring with each other, fighting Whis together or while they were in Whis' staff. But they didn't on any of those occasions. So it just makes figuring out whether Goku and Vegeta are tapping into God Ki in their base form or any SSJ form that isn't Super Saiyan Blue bloody impossible. God Ki has made things insanely fucking confusing.

My God, even after all this fucking time, we still don't know how God ki works or when Goku and Vegeta use God ki outside of Super Saiyan Blue. The entire utilisation and implementation of God Ki is fucked up in the show. The writing department of Super royally fucked up this plot point because there is no consistency on how or when God ki even works. And all it would take to sort out all this shit would be a quick thirty second explanation . But they ain't got time for that...

[ChiefWamsutta]

As I see it, either the two base theory is true or the retcon theory is true. There are literally no other alternatives at this point unless people would rather believe that Gohan is now God level, which is preposterous.

I go with the retcon theory cause that's clearly what's happened here. In the same year F the movie came out and Toriyama started work on U6, he went from abandoning the golden line entirely and having Goku & Vegeta relatively close to Beerus in power to bringing the golden line of SS back and perpetually retconning Beerus into being leaps ahead of the two main characters. I believe this was done because the old tiers would've required the sudden appearance of a bunch of Beerus and even Whis tier opponents to challenge Goku & Vegeta and Toriyama clearly didn't like the feel of that.

The Retcon Theory makes the most sense. It's almost like Saiyan Beyond God (obviously with no god ki, but I use this to describe the strong base) and SSBlue were the only forms. Then it became Base, SS1, SS2, SS3, and SSBlue.

A lot of this probably stemmed from Toriyama wanting to make Beerus stronger. He needed a much bigger gap and Goku Black, Merged Zamasu, the other Gods of Destruction, and other Angels fit into that slot. The retcon may have come from the choice to make DBSuper instead of just having the occasional movie every two years. It is easier to power Goku and Vegeta up if you have a movie, but TV shows need more balance.

[Hugo Boss]

I always said it's easier to defend the retcon theory over the others, but I believe the anime (specially) will go back and forth with the powerscale, depending on which kind of tension the context demands.

In another hand, while the manga tends to be more consistent with powerlevels, it has been creating huge differences when handling Black's power. I prefer to think his Super Saiyan form is different from the others like his Super Saiyan Rosé is different from Super Saiyan Blue.

[SansrivaaL]

I dont really understand this anymore.
Goku in base was able to put up a fight against Beerus (Monaka costume)
Gohan SSJ got toyed around by Freeza 1st form
Goku base form was an equal match for final form Freeza
Now for some magical reason SSJ Gohan is equal to SSJ Goku.
Either Goku was using 1% of his power to amuse Gohan or that saiyaman shiz gave him a hell of a boost.

[Lord Beerus]

I dont really understand this anymore.
Goku in base was able to put up a fight against Beerus (Monaka costume)
Gohan SSJ got toyed around by Freeza 1st form
Goku base form was an equal match for final form Freeza
Now for some magical reason SSJ Gohan is equal to SSJ Goku.
Either Goku was using 1% of his power to amuse Gohan or that saiyaman shiz gave him a hell of a boost.

- You can put down the Goku/Beerus!Monaka fight as a case of them not fighting all that seriously or just ignore it as it filler.
- The situation with Freeza and Gohan is a tricky one. You could say Freeza's death beams are the sort of technique that pieces through anything irregardless of the gap of strength, much like Krillin's Kienzan. Or that Gohan at that stage was really, really, really weak and bit fatigued from fighting Tagoma and Freeza's soldiers at that stage.
- Goku's base form was not really hyped up to be anything special as was Freeza's final form at that stage.

[HeroR]

Goku and Beerus nearly destroyed the planet during their spar in Episode 42, and Goku was in his base form. Destroying just a field as a Super Saiyan is holding back.

That's an extremely weak counterpoint. We've seen Goku fight with actual multitudes of more power than what he used in base against Beerus in Episode 42, with plenty of field destruction to boot, and the planet was never once mentioned to be in any danger during those specific fights. That was never an indicator of power in the series.

Meanwhile, Gohan complains that Goku is holding back and Goku responds by saying he was just testing Gohan moments before addressing his complaint by turning into a Super Saiyan. Nobody was holding back after this point and it's mind-numbingly obvious to everyone watching this that Goku and Gohan's sparring match becoming unrestrained -- to the point that both characters weren't even conscious of their own surroundings anymore -- was the whole context and intention of the scene.

The only reason you're even denying this is because it blatantly contradicts your viewpoint of the power scale.

My point is that both Goku and Beerus got into the match and careless, so the fight ended early. People are saying that Goku and Gohan got into it, so they weren't holding back. However, they had to be in some control of themselves since neither nearly nuked the planet, especially since Goku was a Super Saiyan.

Goku said in a dramatic voice that Gohan was holding back and he was testing him. Why would Goku say that since, of course Gohan is holding back since he isn't even a Super Saiyan. Seems like building drama because he was play acting.

No one outside this thread remotely thinks that Goku was going all out. And saying I am in denial is something since people here are willing to say Goku has a second strong base form that has never been referenced or saying a retcon happened and Toei only learned about it recently.

Goku and Beerus nearly destroyed the planet during their spar in Episode 42, and Goku was in his base form. Destroying just a field as a Super Saiyan is holding back.

That's an extremely weak counterpoint. We've seen Goku fight with actual multitudes of more power than what he used in base against Beerus in Episode 42, with plenty of field destruction to boot, and the planet was never once mentioned to be in any danger during those specific fights. That was never an indicator of power in the series.

Meanwhile, Gohan complains that Goku is holding back and Goku responds by saying he was just testing Gohan moments before addressing his complaint by turning into a Super Saiyan. Nobody was holding back after this point and it's mind-numbingly obvious to everyone watching this that Goku and Gohan's sparring match becoming unrestrained -- to the point that both characters weren't even conscious of their own surroundings anymore -- was the whole context and intention of the scene.

The only reason you're even denying this is because it blatantly contradicts your viewpoint of the power scale.

Marlowe89, you are 100% right on everything. To anyone who is concerned about power scaling the Retcon Theory answers the questions that the One-Base Theory and Two-Base Theory couldn't. It is a good melding of the two. HeroR is just unwilling to even consider the other side of things. All he's doing is over-analyzing plainly obvious things.

SS Goku Pre-Retcon = SSGod Goku
SS Goku Post-Retcon = SS Goku Buu Saga
(Disincluding the few filler episodes after the U6 Tournament)

No, he's just using less power. He doesn't feel weaker in the sense that he actually lost that power. Beerus says the same thing in the movie. When Goku reverted from SSJG, he didn't get much weaker, but he reverted from SSJG to base and even SSJ Goku was below SSJG Goku.

Yes Goku absorbed SSJG. Not seeing your point. That doesn't mean that he possesses SSJG level power in all his forms.

Not really since Super Saiyan Goku performed better against Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku. The only thing Super Saiyan God did better was absorbing Beerus' final technique.

He would be beyond Super Saiyan God in most of his forms.

That's not canon. Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again. You're thinking of the Battle of Gods movie. The Battle of Gods sagas is canon.

If you read the entire conversation, we were talking to about the movie in relation to the manga where Goku has Super Saiyan God. Not the anime. And BOG is 'canon' in the sense that Toriyama had more direct involvement with it.

I have considered it and I wrote why it doesn't make much sense. The retcon side hasn't addressed why Toriyama would retcon this and not tell Toei who did the retellings and Toei retcon Beerus' strength by removing a few lines. Goku not absorbing godhood is a big plot point in Reserrection 'F' that can't be handwave as 'filler'.

I dont really understand this anymore.
Goku in base was able to put up a fight against Beerus (Monaka costume)
Gohan SSJ got toyed around by Freeza 1st form
Goku base form was an equal match for final form Freeza
Now for some magical reason SSJ Gohan is equal to SSJ Goku.
Either Goku was using 1% of his power to amuse Gohan or that saiyaman shiz gave him a hell of a boost.

- You can put down the Goku/Beerus!Monaka fight as a case of them not

That's an extremely weak counterpoint. We've seen Goku fight with actual multitudes of more power than what he used in base against Beerus in Episode 42, with plenty of field destruction to boot, and the planet was never once mentioned to be in any danger during those specific fights. That was never an indicator of power in the series.

Meanwhile, Gohan complains that Goku is holding back and Goku responds by saying he was just testing Gohan moments before addressing his complaint by turning into a Super Saiyan. Nobody was holding back after this point and it's mind-numbingly obvious to everyone watching this that Goku and Gohan's sparring match becoming unrestrained -- to the point that both characters weren't even conscious of their own surroundings anymore -- was the whole context and intention of the scene.

The only reason you're even denying this is because it blatantly contradicts your viewpoint of the power scale.

Marlowe89, you are 100% right on everything. To anyone who is concerned about power scaling the Retcon Theory answers the questions that the One-Base Theory and Two-Base Theory couldn't. It is a good melding of the two. HeroR is just unwilling to even consider the other side of things. All he's doing is over-analyzing plainly obvious things.

SS Goku Pre-Retcon = SSGod Goku
SS Goku Post-Retcon = SS Goku Buu Saga
(Disincluding the few filler episodes after the U6 Tournament)

Not really since Super Saiyan Goku performed better against Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku. The only thing Super Saiyan God did better was absorbing Beerus' final technique.

He would be beyond Super Saiyan God in most of his forms.

That's not canon. Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again. You're thinking of the Battle of Gods movie. The Battle of Gods sagas is canon.

all that seriously or just ignore it as it filler.
- The situation with Freeza and Gohan is a tricky one. You could say Freeza's death beams are the sort of technique that pieces through anything irregardless of the gap of strength, much like Krillin's Kienzan. Or that Gohan at that stage was really, really, really weak and bit fatigued from fighting Tagoma and Freeza's soldiers at that stage.
- Goku's base form was not really hyped up to be anything special as was Freeza's final form at that stage.

We both know that Death Beams don't work that way. They couldn't pierce Super Saiyan Goku on Namek and the power gap was must smaller. Goku also easily deflected the same Death Beam like it was nothing in his base form and Freeza was trying to kill Gohan. And Gohan wasn't that weak since he two shotted Tagoma effortlessly.

Goku and Freeza being freakishly strong even before they went all out was a plot point in Reserrection 'F'.

Like I said. This is the only place in the community that reads Goku and Gohan fight as Goku going all out.

[TheMikado]

We've been saying that the power levels were retconned months, I specifically remember being told there's no way that such a gross error could have been made in production yet here we are...

[HeroR]

We've been saying that the power levels were retconned months, I specifically remember being told there's no way that such a gross error could have been made in production yet here we are...

No has proven this supposed retcon happened. If a retcon happened, the show isn't going to act like everything previously didn't happen like Vegito's time limit or why he defused early.

[Marlowe89]

My point is that both Goku and Beerus got into the match and careless, so the fight ended early. People are saying that Goku and Gohan got into it, so they weren't holding back. However, they had to be in some control of themselves since neither nearly nuked the planet, especially since Goku was a Super Saiyan.

I know what your point is, and I just explained exactly why your example with Beerus is both erroneous and incredibly nonsensical. Go back and read the post.

Goku said in a dramatic voice that Gohan was holding back and he was testing him. Why would Goku say that since, of course Gohan is holding back since he isn't even a Super Saiyan. Seems like building drama because he was play acting.

No, Gohan was the one who complained about Goku holding back and Goku responded by saying he was just testing him - I know they have the same voice actress, but the speaker in question is made evident by the shifts in focus during their conversation; it's also very apparent from the flow of the dialogue that "I was just testin' you" was a specific reply to "You're still holding back it seems!". Nothing in their tone ever indicated that they were "play acting" or whatever argument it is that you're trying to push here, in fact it was the exact opposite according to their dialogue before, during, and after their skirmish. Goku needed a sparring partner and Gohan gave him one as the Great Saiyaman.

No one outside this thread remotely thinks that Goku was going all out.

Stop mentioning unseen posts outside of the topic and go with the facts at hand. You're the only person in this entire thread, it seems, who believes that Goku was holding back tremendously. Everyone else apparently interpreted this scene completely wrong and only you understand what is actually going on, despite the fact that you're literally ignoring context and even verbs that are explicitly referred to in past-tense while simultaneously pulling an unverified "play acting" argument out of nowhere.

[Cipher]

I'm still scratching my head over the idea that Goku would go Super Saiyan 2 against Black, only to use a minuscule fraction of the power he could have in base? Like, that just seems really hard to justify? (Not that that one scene would be enough, but it's probably the most baffling without a retcon, with which I think everything else lines up fairly seamlessly as well.)

Either the "two-base" thing is true, despite no mention being made of it in the series and super-strong bases not being seen for two entire arcs, or, you know.

I have considered it and I wrote why it doesn't make much sense. The retcon side hasn't addressed why Toriyama would retcon this and not tell Toei who did the retellings and Toei retcon Beerus' strength by removing a few lines. Goku not absorbing godhood is a big plot point in Reserrection 'F' that can't be handwave as 'filler'.

I wrote a paragraph about that last page. I'm still not sure what your reading of the Black fight is.

This is the smallest hill to die on; obviously people can watch Super however they want. I think I'm just kind of intrigued and baffled by the miscommunications that seem to have gone into production.

I remember bringing up the retcon thing as early as the Black fight, but it always seems to get drowned out again since I don't care for detailed strength debates to keep it going.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'm just organizing my thoughts here.

1) We know Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his Base.
2) He has the Godly Strength Base he uses against Frieza. Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < Godly Strength Base < SSBlue
3) He uses normal Base against Botamo.
4) He uses Godly Strength Base against Hit at first.
5) Godly Base Goku fights Monaka-Beerus.
6) Copy Vegeta's Godly Strength Base fights SS3 Gotenks.
7) We don't see any instance of Godly Strength Base in Future Trunks Arc.

We know that Gods are not allowed to Time Travel, as told by Beerus and Whis. What if ... and bear with me here ... because Goku and Vegeta had the power of Gods, they lost their Godly Strength Base because of time traveling.

It is purely speculative, but I like the theory idea. It can explain the retcon.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm still scratching my head over the idea that Goku would go Super Saiyan 2 against Black, only to use a minuscule fraction of the power he could have in base? Like, that just seems really hard to justify? (Not that that one scene would be enough, but it's probably the most baffling without a retcon, with which I think everything else lines up fairly seamlessly as well.)

Either the "two-base" thing is true, despite no mention being made of it in the series and super-strong bases not being seen for two entire arcs, or, you know.

Their feats in base don't magically cease to exist when a retcon happens, if there's even actually a retcon. Base Goku was outclassing Final Form Frieza back in the F Arc and Base Vegeta completely stomped SSJ3 Gotenks in the Copy Vegeta Arc.

I'm just organizing my thoughts here.

1) We know Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his Base.
2) He has the Godly Base he uses against Frieza. Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < Godly Base < SSBlue
3) He uses normal Base against Botamo.
4) He uses Godly Base against Hit at first.
5) Godly Base Goku fights Monaka-Beerus.
6) Copy Vegeta's Godly Base fights SS3 Gotenks.
7) We don't see any instance of Godly Base in Future Trunks Arc.

We know that Gods are not allowed to Time Travel, as told by Beerus and Whis. What if ... and bear with me here ... because Goku and Vegeta had the power of Gods, they lost their Godly Base because of time traveling.

It is purely speculative, but I like the theory idea. It can explain the retcon.

Why would they lose their powered up base but not SSBlue?

[Cipher]

Their feats in base don't magically cease to exist when a retcon happens, if there's even actually a retcon. Base Goku was outclassing Final Form Frieza back in the F Arc and Base Vegeta completely stomped SSJ3 Gotenks in the Copy Vegeta Arc.

I guess I don't really care about everything strictly lining up in-universe. "How did Goku fight final form Freeza but also need Super Saiyan 2 against Black?" or "How can Goku and Vegeta have Super Saiyan God strength, while no one wants to comment on Cabba?" aren't really questions I care about having answers to.

All I'm trying to get at is what approach the series is supposed to be written from, and will continue to be written from moving forward.

If the rest of the series doesn't seem to line up with the initial 2/5ths, I'm just going to employ Occam's Razor and figure it genuinely doesn't, especially with all the production factors in play with Super.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Their feats in base don't magically cease to exist when a retcon happens, if there's even actually a retcon. Base Goku was outclassing Final Form Frieza back in the F Arc and Base Vegeta completely stomped SSJ3 Gotenks in the Copy Vegeta Arc.

I guess I don't really care about everything strictly lining up in universe. "How did Goku fight final form Freeza but also need Super Saiyan 2 against Black?" isn't really a question I care about having an answe to.

All I'm trying to get at is what approach the series is supposed to be written from, and will continue to employ moving forward.

It could be that Black is just 100x stronger than SSGod level, and Trunks is too.