Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

It could be that Black is just 100x stronger than SSGod level, and Trunks is too.

Yeah, but that's, pardon my French, fucking dumb.

As I outlined a few pages ago, it's basically pick-your-poison. Either:

There was a retcon that's gone unaddressed.

There's an intended second base form that's gone unaddressed (and unused since the Copy Vegeta filler).

There are a bunch of characters who are suddenly radically strong, and that's gone unaddressed.

Or you just have to assume there's still one super-strong base and come up with wonky reasons for Goku and Vegeta to hold back radically ... while still transforming, for some reason ... in multiple scenarios, all of which are unaddressed.

I find the first the least unlikely, and it makes for the cleanest read of everything after the adaptations.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It could be that Black is just 100x stronger than SSGod level, and Trunks is too.

Yeah, but that's, pardon my French, fucking dumb.

As I outlined a few pages ago, it's basically pick-your-poison. Either:

There was a retcon that's gone unaddressed.

There's an intended second base form that's gone unaddressed (and unused since the Copy Vegeta filler).

There are a bunch of characters who are suddenly radically strong, and that's gone unaddressed.

Or you just have to assume there's still one super-strong base and come up with wonky reasons for Goku and Vegeta to hold back radically ... while still transforming, for some reason ... in multiple scenarios, all of which are unaddressed.

I find the first the least unlikely, and it makes for the cleanest read of everything after the adaptations.

Or a slightly different version of the fourth one: Both Black and Goku were holding back a massive amount of power against Trunks, thus Black was actually a match for uber beefed up SSJ2 Goku.

[Noah]

Like I said. This is the only place in the community that reads Goku and Gohan fight as Goku going all out.

Mate, nobody is saying that Goku was all serious in that fight, just that is silly to assume that he would turn into SSJ if his base was thousand times stronger SSJ Gohan. So the recton theory is valid or just believe that Gohan is now God-tier, your choice.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'm still scratching my head over the idea that Goku would go Super Saiyan 2 against Black, only to use a minuscule fraction of the power he could have in base? Like, that just seems really hard to justify? (Not that that one scene would be enough, but it's probably the most baffling without a retcon, with which I think everything else lines up fairly seamlessly as well.)

Either the "two-base" thing is true, despite no mention being made of it in the series and super-strong bases not being seen for two entire arcs, or, you know.

Their feats in base don't magically cease to exist when a retcon happens, if there's even actually a retcon. Base Goku was outclassing Final Form Frieza back in the F Arc and Base Vegeta completely stomped SSJ3 Gotenks in the Copy Vegeta Arc.

I'm just organizing my thoughts here.

1) We know Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his Base.
2) He has the Godly Base he uses against Frieza. Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < Godly Base < SSBlue
3) He uses normal Base against Botamo.
4) He uses Godly Base against Hit at first.
5) Godly Base Goku fights Monaka-Beerus.
6) Copy Vegeta's Godly Base fights SS3 Gotenks.
7) We don't see any instance of Godly Base in Future Trunks Arc.

We know that Gods are not allowed to Time Travel, as told by Beerus and Whis. What if ... and bear with me here ... because Goku and Vegeta had the power of Gods, they lost their Godly Base because of time traveling.

It is purely speculative, but I like the theory idea. It can explain the retcon.

Why would they lose their powered up base but not SSBlue?

Lmao, dude, I have no idea. None of us know what is going on. Like what was just said, why SS2 Goku vs. Goku Black yet Base Goku vs. Post-Training Final Form Frieza?

Perhaps, it is because they absorbed it from SSGod vs. SSB being created on its own.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Perhaps, it is because they absorbed it from SSGod vs. SSB being created on its own.

Vegeta never even got SSGod, if he has a God base he would have obtained it through training, the same as his SSBlue.

[HeroR]

I'm still scratching my head over the idea that Goku would go Super Saiyan 2 against Black, only to use a minuscule fraction of the power he could have in base? Like, that just seems really hard to justify? (Not that that one scene would be enough, but it's probably the most baffling without a retcon, with which I think everything else lines up fairly seamlessly as well.)

Either the "two-base" thing is true, despite no mention being made of it in the series and super-strong bases not being seen for two entire arcs, or, you know.

Their feats in base don't magically cease to exist when a retcon happens, if there's even actually a retcon. Base Goku was outclassing Final Form Frieza back in the F Arc and Base Vegeta completely stomped SSJ3 Gotenks in the Copy Vegeta Arc.

I'm just organizing my thoughts here.

1) We know Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his Base.
2) He has the Godly Base he uses against Frieza. Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < Godly Base < SSBlue
3) He uses normal Base against Botamo.
4) He uses Godly Base against Hit at first.
5) Godly Base Goku fights Monaka-Beerus.
6) Copy Vegeta's Godly Base fights SS3 Gotenks.
7) We don't see any instance of Godly Base in Future Trunks Arc.

We know that Gods are not allowed to Time Travel, as told by Beerus and Whis. What if ... and bear with me here ... because Goku and Vegeta had the power of Gods, they lost their Godly Base because of time traveling.

It is purely speculative, but I like the theory idea. It can explain the retcon.

Why would they lose their powered up base but not SSBlue?

This is what I have been trying to say. A retcon doesn't make what happened previously disappear. There needs to be an in-universe reason because this isn't like the original anime that ignores it own filler when the manga goes against it. Especially when a major story arc is build around Goku getting a ultra powerful base form. The retcon with Vegetto in both Z and Super got acknowledged and explained. The same with the time traveling rules.

[Marlowe89]

Or a slightly different version of the fourth one: Both Black and Goku were holding back a massive amount of power against Trunks, thus Black was actually a match for uber beefed up SSJ2 Goku.

I find that unlikely. For one, it was mentioned that Trunks was beginning to overpower Goku. Afterwards when Trunks said his attacks weren't working anymore, he attributed that to Goku's trait of growing stronger as his battles drag on and not necessarily an inherent difference in power.

I'm of the belief that the scene was mostly consistent with the manga's, in which Trunks and Goku are fairly evenly matched until Goku transforms again - only in the anime's case, there doesn't appear to be some stronger variation of Super Saiyan 2 on par with Super Saiyan 3 for Trunks.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Bros ... there is no other way to explain anything.

1) Retcon Theory doesn't have an in-universe answer.
2) There is no explanation for how strong some characters get.
3) One-Base Theory has gaping holes in it.
4) Two-Base Theory doesn't have visual evidence or is ever talked about.

There is nothing to explain any of this. We are screwed.

We need an explanation in the next arc.

[Cipher]

Or a slightly different version of the fourth one: Both Black and Goku were holding back a massive amount of power against Trunks, thus Black was actually a match for uber beefed up SSJ2 Goku.

Trunks says Goku displayed more power against him than he does in his fight against Black. No matter what, the Super Saiyan 2 power Goku fights Black with is lower than the Super Saiyan 3 he used to end the sparring match with Trunks.

[HeroR]

Bros ... there is no other way to explain anything.

1) Retcon Theory doesn't have an in-universe answer.
2) There is no explanation for how strong some characters get.
3) One-Base Theory has gaping holes in it.
4) Two-Base Theory doesn't have visual evidence or is ever talked about.

There is nothing to explain any of this. We are screwed.

We need an explanation in the next arc.

Most characters in the show get strong for no other reason that they train. And Goku having a strong base isn't full of holes unless you think Goku can't hold back or you believe everyone is massively weaker than what was shown.

My point is that both Goku and Beerus got into the match and careless, so the fight ended early. People are saying that Goku and Gohan got into it, so they weren't holding back. However, they had to be in some control of themselves since neither nearly nuked the planet, especially since Goku was a Super Saiyan.

I know what your point is, and I just explained exactly why your example with Beerus is both erroneous and incredibly nonsensical. Go back and read the post.

Goku said in a dramatic voice that Gohan was holding back and he was testing him. Why would Goku say that since, of course Gohan is holding back since he isn't even a Super Saiyan. Seems like building drama because he was play acting.

No, Gohan was the one who complained about Goku holding back and Goku responded by saying he was just testing him - I know they have the same voice actress, but the speaker in question is made evident by the shifts in focus during their conversation; it's also very apparent from the flow of the dialogue that "I was just testin' you" was a specific reply to "You're still holding back it seems!". Nothing in their tone ever indicated that they were "play acting" or whatever argument it is that you're trying to push here, in fact it was the exact opposite according to their dialogue before, during, and after their skirmish. Goku needed a sparring partner and Gohan gave him one as the Great Saiyaman.

No one outside this thread remotely thinks that Goku was going all out.

Stop mentioning unseen posts outside of the topic and go with the facts at hand. You're the only person in this entire thread, it seems, who believes that Goku was holding back tremendously. Everyone else apparently interpreted this scene completely wrong and only you understand what is actually going on, despite the fact that you're literally ignoring context and even verbs that are explicitly referred to in past-tense while simultaneously pulling an unverified "play acting" argument out of nowhere.

Let me lay everything out.

It was said back in the Reserrection 'F' Saga by Whis that you need to be a certain power to sense God ki and Goku and Vegeta were barely at that point. They both could sense Whis in their base forms and Goku can now teleport to Whis.

Trunks couldn't sense God ki when he spared with Vegeta, but he could after getting his rage transformation. He also easily caught a punch by Vegeta before he left and Vegeta was clearly trying to take him off- guard.

Gohan in Episode 71 couldn't sense God ki. If he was base form was approaching Goku he should have at this point. Even his base form only being as strong as Goku's base form in the Reserrection 'F' Saga should allow him to feel something by now, especially when even Freeza could sense God ki.

Which is why I don't believe that Gohan is equal to Goku. Maybe he is and the show is not acknowledging it, but these are the facts the show gave us. Also, within the same episode, Goku is shocked that Krillin won't let him go Super Saiyan, despite how overkill that is. Why would Goku be distress over that since his base form can cream Krillin.


And I was talking about this place being the only forum to think a retcon happened without any acknowledgement since that is a massive change that efforts a major story arc. Not an one-shot 'filler' episode, which is referenced within the show as happening.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Bros ... there is no other way to explain anything.

1) Retcon Theory doesn't have an in-universe answer.
2) There is no explanation for how strong some characters get.
3) One-Base Theory has gaping holes in it.
4) Two-Base Theory doesn't have visual evidence or is ever talked about.

There is nothing to explain any of this. We are screwed.

We need an explanation in the next arc.

Most characters in the show get strong for no other reason that they train. And Goku having a strong base isn't full of holes unless you think Goku can't hold back or you believe everyone is massively weaker than what was shown.

Everyone has been over this again and again. E.g. Gohan can't jump to god level, and Goku wouldn't use Super Saiyan if his Base was much, much stronger. I'm not addressing this point again with you. I don't even understand how you have the energy to debate all these people constantly. You're not going to convince me by posting just one more time.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No, he's just using less power. He doesn't feel weaker in the sense that he actually lost that power. Beerus says the same thing in the movie. When Goku reverted from SSJG, he didn't get much weaker, but he reverted from SSJG to base and even SSJ Goku was below SSJG Goku.

Yes Goku absorbed SSJG. Not seeing your point. That doesn't mean that he possesses SSJG level power in all his forms.

Not really since Super Saiyan Goku performed better against Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku. The only thing Super Saiyan God did better was absorbing Beerus' final technique.

He would be beyond Super Saiyan God in most of his forms.

No, SSJ Goku didn't do better.

SSJG Goku withstood an attack that SSJ Goku couldn't. He is stronger regardless of your opinion on their respective fights. SSJG being needed to stop Beerus' attack shows that Goku wouldn't have been able to stop it in SSJ2 or SSJ3. SSJG Goku was still over 8x stronger than SSJ Goku post god.

Goku getting way over 50x weaker still warranted Beerus' comment on Goku not getting much weaker since a comment like that is relative.

Pre god base goku: 1
pre god ssj goku: 50
pre god ssj2 goku: 100
pre god ssj3 goku: 400

SSJG goku: 1,000,000

post god base goku: 1,000
post god ssj goku: 50,000
post god ssj2 goku: 100,000
post god ssj3 goku: 400,000

That's not canon. Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again. You're thinking of the Battle of Gods movie. The Battle of Gods sagas is canon.

Yes, the movie is canon, so is the manga and anime. Canon has nothing to do with the point I made anyway.

[HeroR]

Everyone has been over this again and again. E.g. Gohan can't jump to god level, and Goku wouldn't use Super Saiyan if his Base was much, much stronger. I'm not addressing this point again with you. I don't even understand how you have the energy to debate all these people constantly. You're not going to convince me by posting just one more time.

Goku was distressed that Krillin forbid him from using Super Saiyan during their match, despite it being overkill.

I am not trying to convince anyone. I am pointing out the flaws in the theories around here. And a forum is for debating, not singing to the choir.

[ChiefWamsutta]

That's not canon. Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again. You're thinking of the Battle of Gods movie. The Battle of Gods sagas is canon.

Yes, the movie is canon, so is the manga and anime. Canon has nothing to do with the point I made anyway.

I was talking to HeroR in that comment. Whatever, it's no big deal.

[HeroR]

[
No, SSJ Goku didn't do better.

SSJG Goku withstood an attack that SSJ Goku couldn't. He is stronger regardless of your opinion on their respective fights. SSJG being needed to stop Beerus' attack shows that Goku wouldn't have been able to stop it in SSJ2 or SSJ3. SSJG Goku was still over 8x stronger than SSJ Goku post god.

That's not canon. Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again. You're thinking of the Battle of Gods movie. The Battle of Gods sagas is canon.

Yes, the movie is canon, so is the manga and anime. Canon has nothing to do with the point I made anyway.

Super Saiyan Goku got more hits in on Beerus than he did as a Super Saiyan God. Even base form Goku did better. If Goku's base is higher, than his Super Saiyan God form would naturally be stronger. Meaning Super Saiyan God Goku at the end of the movie is stronger than Super Saiyan God at the start of the battle.

[Marlowe89]

Maybe he is and the show is not acknowledging it

The show OPENLY acknowledged it the moment Gohan made it clear that he didn't want Goku to hold back anymore, followed by Goku responding in kind by going Super Saiyan and proceeding to have a relatively serious sparring match, all of which was confirmed by their dialogue, the context of the scene and even the reason for their entire skirmish to begin with. You then tried to deflect from this fact by pretending that there was some sort of play acting involved which was never implied and wasn't even what Goku was looking for in the episode.

And I was talking about this place being the only forum to think a retcon happened without any acknowledgement since that is a massive change that efforts a major story arc.

Except that's not what you said at all in regards to the quote I was replying to. Your statement, word-for-word, was "No one outside this thread remotely thinks that Goku was going all out" which is hardly the same thing as saying "Oh nobody mentioned they thought a retcon happened". Goku may not have been going "all-out", at least not to the degree that he'd use a subsequent transformation, but he was hardly holding back his base strength either. In fact he was just fulfilling Gohan's request.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Or a slightly different version of the fourth one: Both Black and Goku were holding back a massive amount of power against Trunks, thus Black was actually a match for uber beefed up SSJ2 Goku.

Trunks says Goku displayed more power against him than he does in his fight against Black. No matter what, the Super Saiyan 2 power Goku fights Black with is lower than the Super Saiyan 3 he used to end the sparring match with Trunks.

You know how a little while later in the future Trunks is able to put up a fight against SSRose Black and Future Zamasu as a mere SSJ2? Maybe he gained that powerup after fighting Goku but didn't realize it, so relatively speaking it seemed to him that Goku was using less power against Black but in reality Goku had actually powered up tremendously. This theory holds zero weight but at this point it's about as valid as any of the other ones.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

[
No, SSJ Goku didn't do better.

SSJG Goku withstood an attack that SSJ Goku couldn't. He is stronger regardless of your opinion on their respective fights. SSJG being needed to stop Beerus' attack shows that Goku wouldn't have been able to stop it in SSJ2 or SSJ3. SSJG Goku was still over 8x stronger than SSJ Goku post god.

That's not canon. Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again. You're thinking of the Battle of Gods movie. The Battle of Gods sagas is canon.

Yes, the movie is canon, so is the manga and anime. Canon has nothing to do with the point I made anyway.

Super Saiyan Goku got more hits in on Beerus than he did as a Super Saiyan God. Even base form Goku did better. If Goku's base is higher, than his Super Saiyan God form would naturally be stronger. Meaning Super Saiyan God Goku at the end of the movie is stronger than Super Saiyan God at the start of the battle.

The final burst Goku did at the end of the movie was just tapping into the SSJG power he possessed earlier. Nothing indicates that it was stronger in any way. The only time it could be argued to properly boost off his current power is when he mastered it from his training with Whis and could actually access the form of his own free will.

The point of the discussion has been lost. The original point was Goku saying that he doesn't feel weaker doesn't have to mean that SSJ Goku=SSJG Goku. It could just be referring to his state of being. The same way that Goku wouldn't feel weaker if he was in base instead of using SSJ. He simply isn't using the extra power, he doesn't feel weaker in the sense that he can't access that level of power.

Similarly, Beerus stated in the movie that Goku didn't get much weaker from SSJG to Base despite the power gap being over 400x. A statement like that is relative.

Pre god base goku: 1
pre god ssj goku: 50
pre god ssj2 goku: 100
pre god ssj3 goku: 400

SSJG goku: 1,000,000

post god base goku: 1,000
post god ssj goku: 50,000
post god ssj2 goku: 100,000
post god ssj3 goku: 400,000

It would still be more appropriate to compare Goku after he lost SSJG to SSJG Goku instead of his pre god self.

[HeroR]

Maybe he is and the show is not acknowledging it

The show OPENLY acknowledged it the moment Gohan made it clear that he didn't want Goku to hold back anymore, followed by Goku responding in kind by going Super Saiyan and proceeding to have a relatively serious sparring match, all of which was confirmed by their dialogue, the context of the scene and even the reason for their entire skirmish to begin with. You then tried to deflect from this fact by pretending that there was some sort of play acting involved which was never implied and wasn't even what Goku was looking for in the episode.

And I was talking about this place being the only forum to think a retcon happened without any acknowledgement since that is a massive change that efforts a major story arc.

Except that's not what you said at all in regards to the quote I was replying to. Your statement, word-for-word, was "No one outside this thread remotely thinks that Goku was going all out" which is hardly the same thing as saying "Oh nobody mentioned they thought a retcon happened". Goku may not have been going "all-out" but he was hardly holding back his base strength either.

And yet, he can't sense God ki despite his base form surpassing the power requirement if his base form is equal to Goku's. I didn't deflect, that is how I read the fight since Goku said he's goes all out and he tends not to. And he wanted to go Super Saiyan against Krillin, despite it being unneeded, otherwise he wouldn't have been shocked that Krillin said no Super Saiyan.

And thought it was obvious that I was talking about the retcon and going all out since we have seen what Goku can do when he gets serious. Like he didn't go all out against Beerus in Episode 42.

The final burst Goku did at the end of the movie was just tapping into the SSJG power he possessed earlier. Nothing indicates that it was stronger in any way. The only time it could be argued to properly boost off his current power is when he mastered it from his training with Whis and could actually access the form of his own free will.

The point of the discussion has been lost. The original point was Goku saying that he doesn't feel weaker doesn't have to mean that SSJ Goku=SSJG Goku. It could just be referring to his state of being. The same way that Goku wouldn't feel weaker if he was in base instead of using SSJ. He simply isn't using the extra power, he doesn't feel weaker in the sense that he can't access that level of power.

Similarly, Beerus stated in the movie that Goku didn't get much weaker from SSJG to Base despite the power gap being over 400x. A statement like that is relative.

Pre god base goku: 1
pre god ssj goku: 50
pre god ssj2 goku: 100
pre god ssj3 goku: 400

SSJG goku: 1,000,000

post god base goku: 1,000
post god ssj goku: 50,000
post god ssj2 goku: 100,000
post god ssj3 goku: 400,000

It would still be more appropriate to compare Goku after he lost SSJG to SSJG Goku instead of his pre god self.

It would be more since Super Saiyan God is a multiplier and Goku's base power got stronger, meaning his Super Saiyan God form is naturally stronger, especially since Beerus acknowledge little to no power drop within Goku after he lost his god form. And it was so brief that it's impossible to do a power comparison between his performance before he lost the form.

It is more than a state of being since in the movie, Goku fought Beerus for several minutes and had to be told he lost his god power, which shocked Goku. He didn't realized at all that he lost it because his overall power didn't drop. If Goku dropped out of Super Saiyan in the middle of a fight, he would feel the power different. It was more than a sense of being in this context.

And my original point is that Goku having Super Saiyan God in the manga despite necessarily mean that Goku didn't absorbed its power since that is what happened in the movie. In other words, Goku's base form in the manga is not the same as it was during the beginning of BOG, weaker than Freeza according to Beerus. It would be much stronger, but not up to par with what he was as a Super Saiyan God if we follow the movie.

[Bullza]

If he did, he would do what he did with Beerus and made him stronger by removing the 70% line and Goku Vegeta working together, which Super did.

We don't know if Toriyama removed the 70% line. That could have just happened by chance, plenty of lines from the movie were omitted in the series. The 10% was still there.

They're born without tails, which is said to make Saiyans stronger. Frost is a lair and anything out of his mouth is suspect. Megetta is strong for his race, which is why he was chosen. We also don't even know if Metal Men still exists in U7.

When was it said to make Saiyans stronger? It's farfetched that just because he didn't have a tail he is somehow stronger than five Super Saiyans put together, much stronger her actually.

You can't really dismiss Frost's comment like that, that'd just be for convenience. He did lose stamina pretty quickly so his comment made sense.

He took the power of godhood in the movie and he still became a golden Super Saiyan.

That was in Battle of Gods though. He hadn't thought of Super Saiyan Blue or it being the Super Saiyan form of such and such at the time.

There was nothing more said about Super Saiyan Blue. At the time it was merely supposed to be Goku as a Super Saiyan. The anime didn't give in any extra information about it really either. That's why everyone was surprised to see Super Saiyan come back.

If Goku was retconned so he didn't absorb the power of God then he wouldn't have to automatically turn Blue when transforming so Super Saiyan 1-3 could be brought back. It might be no coincidence that in the manga that he wasn't said to have absorbed it either even though that was a major plot point.