Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[CatouttaHell]

That's fine, because there was a time where I made the boost work as well. However, this boost makes everyone above base Gotenks absurdly strong. The problem I had working on a list is how Super Buu gets so much stronger in comparison to Fat Buu. I really had no answer.

Nothing says Boo's absorptions are additive. In fact, the exact opposite is implied IMO.

Both of the Kaioshins that actually get some screen time are below Base Goku by a huge degree.

Unless South Kaioshin was thousands of times stronger than them for some crazy reason, there's no way Boo absorbing him was additive.

Absorbing Dai Kaioshin made Boo weaker due to his gentle nature, so IMO it's likely South Kaioshin gave Boo an insanely massive boost from his burly, strength-obsessed nature.

Gotenks-Boo flat-out says a hypothetical Metamorian fusion of Goku and Gohan can't beat him. Piccolo said earlier that a very small increase for the fusees could yield a massive increase for the fusion (which explains Base Gotenks >>> SSjin Gotenks) so Gokan could be worlds above Gotenks despite Goku not being much stronger.

Since Gotenks alone was beating Evil Boo black and blue, that implies that even his non-Kaioshin fusions aren't additive.

It's very possible that absorbing South Kaioshin gave Boo some gargantuan boost that made him thousands, if not millions of times stronger. I'm starting to lean towards the latter lately myself.

Let's be honest here, we're talking about a guy who's long since forgotten the majority of the characters he's created. And while I by no means am implying that I know more than the author of the series, I'm just saying that taking quotes and events as he was writing the story at face value as opposed to his thoughts well after the point where he stopped caring seems more beneficial to me.

Toriyama having a bad memory is definitely true and I would agree if there was anything that suggested the boost got smaller.

Toriyama always makes things like this clear to us. There'd be at least one statement somewhere that alluded to the boost shrinking if this was so IMO.

I can definitely see why people would use it, since otherwise you have to pretend stuff like Base Saiya-jins > Piccolo and Base Gotenks (Post) >>> SSjin Gotenks (Pre) wasn't stated or you wind up having the Super Saiya-jins in the hundred billions and Gotenks in at least the quadrillions.

I mean, I'd love some criticism or breakdown of my list because I'm honestly not thrilled with it.

I didn't read most of it yet, but you have Goten and Trunks insanely weak.

Goten was shown sparring evenly with Gohan in a panel in the manga and the Daizenshuu even said they're equal.

Piccolo also flat-out said they're the Earth's last hope before Goku even told him about fusion, which automatically makes Goten and Trunks > Piccolo.

If Piccolo is weaker even than base Trunks, how come he can stand at all against the Cell Jrs, who only (U)SS Vegeta could fight 'evenly'.

Yeha, they were goofing around, but the humans got trashed completely, while Piccolo didn't.

There's a huge gaps between the Earthlings and Piccolo.

Piccolo standing up against the Cell Juniors doesn't mean much when you consider even Yamucha was still on his feet for half of the fight.

By the end of the fight he's bleeding and bruised while his Cell Junior hasn't even broken a sweat. In a manga title page he even looks like he's about to double over.

Piccolo standing up against the Cell Juniors is no different from Base/SSjin 2 Vegeta taking multiple hits from Pure Boo or Base/SSjin Gotenks taking multiple hits from Evil Boo.

Piccolo considered Initial Second Form Cell to an unnatural power that nobody can reach, so I seriously doubt he ever even got anywhere near that level.

[Rocketman]

Piccolo standing up against the Cell Juniors is no different from Base/SSjin 2 Vegeta taking multiple hits from Pure Boo or Base/SSjin Gotenks taking multiple hits from Evil Boo.

In that the former isn't very far behind the latter? I agree (with a dash of gag for Gotenks).

[CatouttaHell]

In that the former isn't very far behind the latter? I agree (with a dash of gag for Gotenks).

Base Vegeta is worlds below Pure Boo and Base/SSjin Gotenks are both worlds below Evil Boo.

[Vice]

Base/SSjin Gotenks are both worlds below Evil Boo.

I'm sorry... what?

[CatouttaHell]

I'm sorry... what?

Evil Boo is the official name the ridiculously tall Boo who kept absorbing everybody.

Gotenks needed SSjin 3 to kick his ass, so clearly his base/SSjin forms are worlds below him (unless you assume he gets smaller boosts or whatever of course.)

[Vice]

Ah. The guy I refer to as Super Buu, gotcha.

[Godo]

Hell, Piccolo did even better against the Cell Jrs than a weakened FPSSJ Goku did. So if you believe that the base Saiya-jins surpassed Piccolo, you'd have to imply that a weakened FPSSJ Goku is weaker than base Goku.
So with a common enemy to measure their powers with, we have a pretty much certain way of telling that base Saiya-jins are weaker than Piccolo, and also to add all the other evidence that have been brought up to Piccolo's favor.

[dbgtFO]

That's fine, because there was a time where I made the boost work as well. However, this boost makes everyone above base Gotenks absurdly strong. The problem I had working on a list is how Super Buu gets so much stronger in comparison to Fat Buu. I really had no answer.

Of course not, but that's not the only problem. The problem is Super Buu and where all of this extra power he'd have to have with a 50x multiplier comes from.

I can see that you put Fat Buu at 50 billion and Super Buu at 800 billion, making Super Buu 16 times stronger than Fat Buu. Wouldn't you consider that quite a gap as well? One could ask the same question here about, where he's getting that much power from.

Regardless, not having knowlegde about how Super Buu got so much stronger than Fat Buu doesn't mean, that he didn't.
It doesn't invalidate the official multipliers etc. either.

This again makes Super Buu absurdly powerful in comparison to his original counterpart.

Which there's nothing wrong with.

[Vice]

Well, we're talking about the difference between being 16x stronger as opposed to being 160x stronger that would exist with a 50x multiplier to a base Gotenks I already have pretty weak compared to Fat Buu...

[Piccolo Daimao]

The only reason you guys think a x50 multiplier for Super Saiyan can't work in the Boo arc is because it doesn't work for your numbers. It's got nothing to do with the story, it's just that people like to hold onto their precious opinionated numbers without realizing that Toriyama didn't think about those restricted numbers that he'd already disposed of when he was writing the Boo arc.

Nothing implies that the Super Saiyan multiplier ever decreased but fans' bullshit theories to make things fit their opinionated battle power lists.

And CatouttaHell, why do you continue to bullshit about Piccolo's performance against the Cell Juniors? "Oh, Piccolo was bloody and had x5 more bruises than Vegeta and Trunks, he did no better than Yamcha, and if you look really closely, he even looks like he's about to double over!" Pfft. It's clear as day that only Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks were able to hold their own against the Cell Juniors, and that's why they were the only ones who were standing at the end of the battle with the Cell Jrs. while the Earthlings and even a weakened Goku were lying defeated on the ground.

[CatouttaHell]

And CatouttaHell, why do you continue to bullshit about Piccolo's performance against the Cell Juniors? "Oh, Piccolo was bloody and had x5 more bruises than Vegeta and Trunks, he did no better than Yamcha, and if you look really closely, he even looks like he's about to double over!" Pfft. It's clear as day that only Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks were able to hold their own against the Cell Juniors, and that's why they were the only ones who were standing at the end of the battle with the Cell Jrs. while the Earthlings and even a weakened Goku were lying defeated on the ground.

Saying Piccolo holding his own as well as the Super Saiya-jins is absolutely absurd. Cell himself said nobody but them was holding their own.

It's clear as day that Piccolo was doing far worse than anyone else. On a chapter page he looked like he was about to double-over and we see multiple times that he's far more injured than Vegeta and Trunks while his Cell Junior doesn't have a scratch.

This same kind of one-sided beat down happened with Base Vegeta vs. Pure Boo but I don't see you saying it's clear as day that Base Vegeta is SSjin 3 tier.

Nothing indicates Piccolo is anywhere near Vegeta or Trunks. He himself thought Initial Second Form Cell was an unnatural power nobody could reach and Goku ROFL'd at his power and wanted him to defuse, feeling his power isn't even worth keeping around.

And again, the Earthlings were standing up and taking hits for half of the battle but that doesn't mean they're not in the hundred thousands.

[Piccolo Daimao]

And CatouttaHell, why do you continue to bullshit about Piccolo's performance against the Cell Juniors? "Oh, Piccolo was bloody and had x5 more bruises than Vegeta and Trunks, he did no better than Yamcha, and if you look really closely, he even looks like he's about to double over!" Pfft. It's clear as day that only Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks were able to hold their own against the Cell Juniors, and that's why they were the only ones who were standing at the end of the battle with the Cell Jrs. while the Earthlings and even a weakened Goku were lying defeated on the ground.

Saying Piccolo holding his own as well as the Super Saiya-jins is absolutely absurd. Cell himself said nobody but them was holding their own.

It's clear as day that Piccolo was doing far worse than anyone else. On a chapter page he looked like he was about to double-over and we see multiple times that he's far more injured than Vegeta and Trunks while his Cell Junior doesn't have a scratch.

This same kind of one-sided beat down happened with Base Vegeta vs. Pure Boo but I don't see you saying it's clear as day that Base Vegeta is SSjin 3 tier.

Nothing indicates Piccolo is anywhere near Vegeta or Trunks. He himself thought Initial Second Form Cell was an unnatural power nobody could reach and Goku ROFL'd at his power and wanted him to defuse, feeling his power isn't even worth keeping around.

And again, the Earthlings were standing up and taking hits for half of the battle but that doesn't mean they're not in the hundred thousands.

Shall I direct you to this again?

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell: “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind

Furthermore, Piccolo thinking that second-form Cell was hot shit means nothing, considering that most fighters say that about the main villains until they train and eventually surpass them.

And he's not "far more injured" than Vegeta and Trunks. I don't know where you got to that conclusion, other than over-analyzing the fuck out of a title page just to fuel your strange opinion. All the Cell Juniors had barely a scratch on them or whatever. In fact, the only time we ever see a Cell Junior get hit is when Vegeta manages to land a punch on his Cell Junior.

Goku "ROFL'd" at his power because both he and Piccolo himself knew he was nothing compared to Cell, and that's right. But he was able to hold his own against his Cell Junior. I don't know whether you're reading a different manga, but you're denying facts here. Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks were the last ones standing against the Cell Juniors, who had beaten Goku and the Earthlings. Whether or not they were holding back, the fact of the matter is that Goku and the Earthlings went down, while Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks stayed up.

Are you just biased against Piccolo or something? I'm seriously asking this, because I don't know how anyone can look at that battle and not see how blatantly it's made out that Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones who can put up a fight against the Cell Juniors, and that's why they're the only ones still standing at the end.

End of story.

EDIT: Sorry, Kaboom, for some reason, the forum didn't notify me of your post. Anyway, I'm done with this debate now.

[Rocketman]

Why didn't Goku fall out of Super Saiyan if he's so weak that he's below someone weaker than his base form?

[Kaboom]

In spite of everything, I still like this thread. I don't want to see it ruined. So let's try to "keep it shonen" and not just repeat the same tired old argument again and again okay?

Like I told Vice on the last page, the Boo arc is a goofy mess. It will never be 100% coherent no matter what you do. So just go with whatever you're most comfortable with and rest easy knowing that you're no more or less "right" or "wrong" about it than anyone else. That advice should be taken as both encouragement by some and a warning by others.

[p123]

Bardock- The Father of Goku




Baby Goku 2

Nappa 6,500

Bardock 10,000

King Vegeta 12,000

Prince Vegeta 12,500










Emperor Pilaf Saga




Kuririn 8

Yamcha 9

Goku 10

Ox King 15

Oozaru Goku 100










21st Tenkaichi Budokai





Orin Temple Bully 10

Yamcha 14

Giran 15

Kuririn 16

Nam 18

Goku 20

Jackie Chun 20

Oozaru Goku 200











Red Ribbon Saga: Part 1








Ninja Murasaki 18

Sergeant Metallic 20

Goku 22

Android 8 25












Red Ribbon Saga : Part 2



Bora 15

Kuririn 16

General Blue 18

Goku 24

Tao Pai Pai 30

Goku ( Post Karin Training ) 36













The Fortune Teller Baba







Dracula Man 12

Invisible Man 13

Yamcha 14

Kuririn 16

Mummy 21

Devil Man 26

Gohan 35

Muten Roshi 35

Goku 36














22nd Tenkaichi Budokai





Chaozu 30

Yamcha 32

Kuririn 33

Crane Hermit 35

Jackie Chun 44

Tien 45

Goku 45












Piccolo Daimaio Saga


Cymbal 30

Yajirobe 35

Tambourine 40

Muten Roshi 44

Tien 45

Goku ( Post Tambourine Fight ) 48

Drum 55

Goku ( Post Piccolo Daimao Fight ) 58

Karin 60

Piccolo Daimao
~ 40% ( Against Goku ) 60
~ Full Power 150

Piccolo Daimao ( Youth Restored ) 200

Goku ( Super Sacred Water ) 204









Doesn't seem like Neo has any clue about DB, so I'm hoping to get some good feedback and back and forth over here. Any errors guys? I think I got this Dragonball thing down now, trying to actually make the statements work.

[lash]

Bardock- The Father of Goku

Bardock 10,000

He was stated to be approaching 10,000, not already at 10,000.

21st Tenkaichi Budokai

Jackie Chun 20


The Fortune Teller Baba

Gohan 35

Muten Roshi 35

Goku 36

How did Roshi get that powerful doing nothing? He didn't climb Karin's tower like Goku did. You know actually, despite how long those chapters were, it's truly only been 4 days since the 21st tournament.

Red Ribbon Saga : Part 2

Goku 24

Tao Pai Pai 30

Goku ( Post Karin Training ) 36

If you're really going with stated increases, and think "power" equates to Ki/battle power...then Goku should be many times stronger after this training.

Chapter: 89, P14.1
Context: Goku accuses Karin of lying about the increase in power he should have received from the Holy Water.
Karin: “Nyahhahha! I didn’t trick you!! Your power has already become many times greater!”

Doesn't seem like Neo has any clue about DB, so I'm hoping to get some good feedback and back and forth over here. Any errors guys? I think I got this Dragonball thing down now, trying to actually make the statements work.

Interesting, I used to do this too. But there's actually a bypass to it. If you think of "Power" as different then "Ki"(in which battle power numbers are a direct representation of), the Daizenshuu levels can actually be used without a contradiction. If you go back and check, most of the users in early dragonball say things like I haven't even used half of my power(Piccolo), or my power has increased many times etc. Power isn't always exactly synonymous with Ki in the Japanese sense. Since they aren't saying their Ki has done that...you don't have to have Piccolo using half his battle power/Ki to beat Goku. He might have used most of his full Ki, and just half his power(whatever that relates to), which could be roughly 3/4s or so of Piccolo's full Battle power/Ki.

You don't necessarily have to use this little loophole to make both statements and official statements work...you can carry on with what you're doing, just saying that's how I reasoning Dragonball power levels nowadays at least, since I used to think the same way you're doing now. Makes it a lot easier in the number sense, after all Toriyama wasn't even thinking up battle powers when in comes to early Dragonball. You also won't have to have Roshi getting a ridiculous amount stronger from the 22nd tournament to the start of Dragonball Z, when it's evident he probably did next to nothing to increase his battle power to such a level.

[dbgtFO]

21st Tenkaichi Budokai

Jackie Chun 20


The Fortune Teller Baba

Gohan 35

Muten Roshi 35

Goku 36

How did Roshi get that powerful doing nothing? He didn't climb Karin's tower like Goku did. You know actually, despite how long those chapters were, it's truly only been 4 days since the 21st tournament.

I've debated this with him. He thinks AT had a change of heart concerning Roshi's power. At the tournament it'd be slightly superior to Goku's, but in the Uranai Baba arc it'd be equal to Gohan's, because A, they used to be rivals B, Gohan isn't stated to have gotten stronger and C, Goku(post Karin)'s power is commented on as perhaps surpassing Roshi's.

Though like I pointed out in that same debate, I think this:

Chapter: 97, P10.1-6
Bulma: “That boy just keeps getting stronger, doesn’t he?”
Yamcha: “He’s quite a fellow indeed.”
Roshi: “He may even be stronger than me at this point…”
Kuririn: “W-What--?! Are you serious--?!”
Roshi: “He wiped out the entire Red Ribbon Army on his own…I don’t think even I have the stamina to take on such a large military force...Ho ho ho… He is an inestimable lad already…and I suspect he has a long way to go yet!”

Chapter: 103, P10.1-3
Context: Goku defeated Mummy-kun in a single blow.
Kuririn: “…A s-single blow…?”
Yamcha: “Th-that’s impossible… Wh-what’s this about…?”
Roshi: “I never thought he’d be this powerful…That darn Goku, he’s become an outrageous heavy weight…”
Bulma: “You mean…Son’s that strong?”
Roshi: “I’m as shocked as you are… No wonder he was able to decimate the Red Ribbon Army all by himself…”

...makes it pretty clear that Toriyama was going for:

Roshi < Roshi's estimation of Goku << Goku.

I think it's best to just stick with that, instead of using speculation to try and justify a change of heart.

Interesting, I used to do this too. But there's actually a bypass to it. If you think of "Power" as different then "Ki"(in which battle power numbers are a direct representation of), the Daizenshuu levels can actually be used without a contradiction. If you go back and check, most of the users in early dragonball say things like I haven't even used half of my power(Piccolo), or my power has increased many times etc. Power isn't always exactly synonymous with Ki in the Japanese sense. Since they aren't saying their Ki has done that...you don't have to have Piccolo using half his battle power/Ki to beat Goku. He might have used most of his full Ki, and just half his power(whatever that relates to), which could be roughly 3/4s or so of Piccolo's full Battle power/Ki.

The irritating thing is that Daizenshuu 7 does say that Tambourine's BP is many times greater than Cymbal's, so does that mean that "many times stronger" in every case simply means many times the battle power? Or is it only in this one specific case? Or it's a mistranslation.

Everything's going to get ridiculously cramped if those statements should be taken solely that way. I tried yesterday to make one with all those statements fitting with the beginning of Z BPs, but then I remembered Karin's "many times stronger" statement and I immediately scrapped it, when Goku(21st Budokai) would end up with a BP about 11, barely above his beginning of DB BP.

[lash]

Yeah, dunno how he got the idea Gohan was a rival to Roshi, when he was merely just his star pupil. And we all know pupils have the potential to surpass their masters...
Furthermore, this quote seems to imply 21st Tournament Goku > Son Gohan, at least in toughness(and as far as Roshi last remembered him):

Chapter: 50, P12.2
Context: as Goku is about to give up while suffering from the Bankoku-Bikkuri-Sho
Kame-sennin: “A-alright…You held out well…Even Son Gohan couldn’t endure it for this long…!”

Gohan is powerful, but he simply isn't in Goku's tier anyway. Aside from grabbing his tail, he was still absolutely no match for Goku...he even says so.
Grandpa Gohan: “In any case, you really have gotten strong! I never thought I’d be no match for you! Did you receive training from Lord Muten-Roshi?”

But if we want to reason he put up a better fight against a far stronger Goku than 21st Tournament Roshi ever could, then it must mean Gohan got stronger. I don't think he could get stronger in heaven without a body. So perhaps, Gohan plain surpassed his master while he lived on his own with Goku. I honestly think that's the most likely answer then any change of heart or w.e.

I see it as : Goku post Karin > Gohan > Tao > What Roshi initially thought of Goku post Karin >=Baba arc Roshi = 21st Roshi > 21st Goku


As for Tambourine, he really was many times stronger(in battle power) than Cymbal, even in the manga:

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard. We don’t know the nature of this enemy…”

Notice there is no use of the single "power". And we've seen many times strength/how strong one is can be a synonym for Ki/battle power. That's not the case for "power" apparently (of course don't ask me to explain what the difference is...beats me ).
So apparently Tambourine is one exception that actually does have to have a "many times" greater than another one's power level attributed to it. Shouldn't be much of a problem though, nothing merits Cymbal being all that powerful anyway. (I mean, I even have his Battle power at only 45 & Tambourine at 135, compared to Goku's and Yaji's 170-180.)

[p123]

I don't know. Roshi defeated Gohan, and was pushed as far as to need to use that technique he used against Gohan. As well as Roshi being mentioned as the God of Martial Arts multiple times, I just don't see how he would be so weak.

I think we are probably dealing with differing versions of Roshi here. Perhaps a Base Roshi, which would be the one who competed at the 21st Budokai, then a Semi Buff version, the one who competed against Tien, the obvious Fully Buff one, which might not be battle applicable, and perhaps something in between Semi and Full. Unless he can really fight using that Fully Buff form, which is at least plausible.



On the approaching 10,000, I think that's similar to Vegeta's nearing 30,000 mark or whatever. I'm thikning probably something liek 9,865 or something of that nature. A clean 10k is ok with me considering that. Same as if someone has Goku at 8,000 and not 8,001 , I think that's acceptable as well.




Yea, the many times stronger for Goku Pre and Post Karin is really tough with Piccolo Daimao's already cramping statement of less than half. COH mentioned that many times stronger, does not always equate to ki, as with Kaioken what Kaio says about that, so I'm doing my best, it's awfully tough though...


Cymbal being many times weaker is crazy as well. I mean, Goku is probably using his match level power against Yajirobe, and his battle power against Tambourine, but one wouldn't think that it was a multi folded difference.

[p123]

Dracula Man 9

Invisible Man 10

Yamcha 11

Kuririn 13

Mummy 16

Devil Man 25

Gohan 37

Goku 38














22nd Tenkaichi Budokai





Chaozu 32

Yamcha 34

Kuririn 35

Crane Hermit 37

Jackie Chun 55

Tien 55

Goku 55












Piccolo Daimaio Saga


Cymbal 25

Yajirobe 27

Tambourine 50

Muten Roshi 55

Tenshinhan 55

Goku ( Tambourine Zenkai ) 60

Drum 65

Goku ( Piccolo Zenkai ) 70

Karin 75

Piccolo Daimao
~ 40% ( Against Goku ) 75
~ Full Power 160

Piccolo Daimao ( Youth Restored ) 200

Goku ( Super Sacred Water ) 204

Goku ( Piccolo Zenkai ) 225





How you like me now! I think I got the statements down. Many times stronger is acceptable as a 2x boost ala Kaioken. Haha!