Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[dario03]

Yeah Vegeta was shocked by a technique that let Goku move so fast. If Goku could have made that trip with pure speed then the technique wouldn't be shocking to Vegeta and he would have kept up with his theory of it just being high speed movement.

1 - I actually went and watched the scene with the building again. I will say that it was smaller than I recalled but it was definitely bigger than that building.

- I would say we have a good bit of evidence saying Superman is faster. And when I say how strong I meant how much lifting power do you think Goku has since you are saying that the building scene in GT is to weak of a showing. That doesn't really have anything to do with speed.

4 - what do you not understand?

He was shocked because it was a teleporting technique , not because of it's speed .

Even if what you are saying is right ,still that dosen't mean my calcs are wrong .

1-In which episode did you watched the building ?

4-What are superman's power sources ?

if the sun was the only power source he has ,then he would die without it .

That doesn't fit with what happened. Vegeta said it was just high speed movement. Goku then shows everyone Roshi's glasses which shocks everybody because it was 10,000km away. If Goku could simply move that fast with speed alone then why would Goku travelling 20,000km shock Vegeta and make him believe that it was teleportation?
And it actually does make your calcs wrong (not the actual numbers but the premise of them). But even if we ignore that and do go by your calcs it doesn't matter either way, because either we go by feats for Goku and Superman or we do the math for both. Either way Superman comes out being faster and stronger. He has far more stated feats and if you do the math he is even more powerful.
You said that Goku would be something like 1000x faster than light, I showed you that doing math you could put Superman in the millions or even trillions of times faster than light.
Stated feats have Superman moving the Earth and even benching the equilvent weight of the Earth for 5 days straight while underground and only getting one drop of sweat and quitting because he had things to do. Goku on the other hand can't even come remotely close to that.

1 - 61

-I'm still waiting for your numbers on Goku's strength.

4 - His super powers are solar powered.

- What makes you think he would die without the sun? That doesn't even make sense. He would eventually lose his powers but it wouldn't kill him and the drain on his powers takes a long time so its not like putting him inside is all of a sudden going to drop his powers 99.999999%

[TonyTheTiger]

Not to mention that Goku would die without the sun long before Superman would.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Not to mention that Goku would die without the sun long before Superman would.

Lol so true .

[GoKu.SaMa]

Not to mention that Goku would die without the sun long before Superman would.

Why would Goku die without the sun ???

Yeah Vegeta was shocked by a technique that let Goku move so fast. If Goku could have made that trip with pure speed then the technique wouldn't be shocking to Vegeta and he would have kept up with his theory of it just being high speed movement.

1 - I actually went and watched the scene with the building again. I will say that it was smaller than I recalled but it was definitely bigger than that building.

- I would say we have a good bit of evidence saying Superman is faster. And when I say how strong I meant how much lifting power do you think Goku has since you are saying that the building scene in GT is to weak of a showing. That doesn't really have anything to do with speed.

4 - what do you not understand?

He was shocked because it was a teleporting technique , not because of it's speed .

Even if what you are saying is right ,still that dosen't mean my calcs are wrong .

1-In which episode did you watched the building ?

4-What are superman's power sources ?

if the sun was the only power source he has ,then he would die without it .

That doesn't fit with what happened. Vegeta said it was just high speed movement. Goku then shows everyone Roshi's glasses which shocks everybody because it was 10,000km away. If Goku could simply move that fast with speed alone then why would Goku travelling 20,000km shock Vegeta and make him believe that it was teleportation?
And it actually does make your calcs wrong (not the actual numbers but the premise of them). But even if we ignore that and do go by your calcs it doesn't matter either way, because either we go by feats for Goku and Superman or we do the math for both. Either way Superman comes out being faster and stronger. He has far more stated feats and if you do the math he is even more powerful.
You said that Goku would be something like 1000x faster than light, I showed you that doing math you could put Superman in the millions or even trillions of times faster than light.
Stated feats have Superman moving the Earth and even benching the equilvent weight of the Earth for 5 days straight while underground and only getting one drop of sweat and quitting because he had things to do. Goku on the other hand can't even come remotely close to that.

1 - 61

-I'm still waiting for your numbers on Goku's strength.

4 - His super powers are solar powered.

- What makes you think he would die without the sun? That doesn't even make sense. He would eventually lose his powers but it wouldn't kill him and the drain on his powers takes a long time so its not like putting him inside is all of a sudden going to drop his powers 99.999999%

That might be right , but still that dosen't prove that my calcs are wrong .

1-It was smaller than the building in picture , even if it was 100 times bigger ,the building's weight wouldn't be 160,000 tons .

4-What ever ...

the important thing is that Goku will know that superman's power is increasing

----------

I'm confused about superman's speed .

Things i heard about Superman's speed :

1-Superman is as fast as the light .

2-Superman in outer space is 20 times faster than the light .

3-Superman's maximum speed on Earth is almost 3000 km/s , and that is not even close from the lightning .

4-Superman is more than 4000 times faster than the light (you said that) .

[Puto]

Not to mention that Goku would die without the sun long before Superman would.

Why would Goku die without the sun ??? :eh:

Because he would freeze to death?

[dario03]

That might be right , but still that dosen't prove that my calcs are wrong .

1-It was smaller than the building in picture , even if it was 100 times bigger ,the building's weight wouldn't be 160,000 tons .

4-What ever ...

the important thing is that Goku will know that superman's power is increasing

----------

I'm confused about superman's speed .

Things i heard about Superman's speed :

1-Superman is as fast as the light .

2-Superman in outer space is 20 times faster than the light .

3-Superman's maximum speed on Earth is almost 3000 km/s , and that is not even close from the lightning .

4-Superman is more than 4000 times faster than the light (you said that) .

Again, yes it actually does prove your calcs wrong. You might of done the math right but the numbers you used to start with are not. Or we ignore how nobody thinks Goku using just movement speed could travel 20,000km so fast and assume your calcs are completely right. But it still wouldn't matter because then we just do some math with Superman based on things that were actually done in the comics and he is still far far faster.

1 - I'm going to say that it is not smaller than the building pictured. Its not like we can make a exact comparison but the building in GT looks to be about as long maybe a little less but wider and much taller. And your right if the building in GT was 100 times the size of your 6000 ton building it wouldn't be 160,000 tons, it would be 600,000 tons.

- And again I'm still waiting on those strength numbers...

4 - Actually we still don't know that for sure and the important thing is if that would actually matter or not. I say it doesn't because Superman wouldn't need to sun dip.

----

That has been covered already. Superman's speed varies greatly because all of his powers vary greatly. They vary mostly because the different writers give him different feats but the in universe explaination is that Superman holds back greatly and has mental blocks that he put on himself. Eventually he gets rid of the mental blocks though so if he wants to go all out he can. So its not exactly the same thing but you could compare it to listing off the wildly varying feats of Goku without listing when they occured. You know like how it took him months to travel 1,000,000km one time and another time it took about a day.
Thats why I have said that some versions of Superman could lose to some versions of Goku (for Goku it more depends on when in the story) but if we are using their best showings Superman wins. And Death Battle usually uses the best showings of the characters usual powers. They don't usually use special power ups unless its something that was permanent or could easily be done again though. So Superman and Goku can amp themselves up with a sundip and spirit bomb absorbtion but Spawn and Kratos didn't have their full on god powers IIRC.

[dbzfan7]

I don't know why calculations are still going on. The final statistic on their characters was enough to convince me. Also for people suggesting because of SSJ God they should do a rematch ITS NOT HAPPENING. You'd be lucky if they tweeted something about it, other then that the odds of a rematch are slim to none. Goku would still demolish the DCAU version if it makes the fans happy. (its probably the only version they know)

[GoKu.SaMa]

That might be right , but still that dosen't prove that my calcs are wrong .

1-It was smaller than the building in picture , even if it was 100 times bigger ,the building's weight wouldn't be 160,000 tons .

4-What ever ...

the important thing is that Goku will know that superman's power is increasing

----------

I'm confused about superman's speed .

Things i heard about Superman's speed :

1-Superman is as fast as the light .

2-Superman in outer space is 20 times faster than the light .

3-Superman's maximum speed on Earth is almost 3000 km/s , and that is not even close from the lightning .

4-Superman is more than 4000 times faster than the light (you said that) .

Again, yes it actually does prove your calcs wrong. You might of done the math right but the numbers you used to start with are not. Or we ignore how nobody thinks Goku using just movement speed could travel 20,000km so fast and assume your calcs are completely right. But it still wouldn't matter because then we just do some math with Superman based on things that were actually done in the comics and he is still far far faster.

1 - I'm going to say that it is not smaller than the building pictured. Its not like we can make a exact comparison but the building in GT looks to be about as long maybe a little less but wider and much taller. And your right if the building in GT was 100 times the size of your 6000 ton building it wouldn't be 160,000 tons, it would be 600,000 tons.

- And again I'm still waiting on those strength numbers...

4 - Actually we still don't know that for sure and the important thing is if that would actually matter or not. I say it doesn't because Superman wouldn't need to sun dip.

----

That has been covered already. Superman's speed varies greatly because all of his powers vary greatly. They vary mostly because the different writers give him different feats but the in universe explaination is that Superman holds back greatly and has mental blocks that he put on himself. Eventually he gets rid of the mental blocks though so if he wants to go all out he can. So its not exactly the same thing but you could compare it to listing off the wildly varying feats of Goku without listing when they occured. You know like how it took him months to travel 1,000,000km one time and another time it took about a day.
Thats why I have said that some versions of Superman could lose to some versions of Goku (for Goku it more depends on when in the story) but if we are using their best showings Superman wins. And Death Battle usually uses the best showings of the characters usual powers. They don't usually use special power ups unless its something that was permanent or could easily be done again though. So Superman and Goku can amp themselves up with a sundip and spirit bomb absorbtion but Spawn and Kratos didn't have their full on god powers IIRC.

No actually , Goku's speed at that time was almost 6000 km/s (according to my calcs) .

-OK

4-Yes we do .

I say it doesn't because Superman wouldn't need to sun dip.

We will know that later.

--------------

Every thing about Superman is complicated.

I want to know his real speed -his real strength-his real abilities -his toughest fights .

[Zephyr]

I don't know why calculations are still going on. The final statistic on their characters was enough to convince me.

Same here. And to add to that, TonyTheTiger's post a while back even further convinced me:

Given how high Superman's numbers are, I can't conceive of any calculations, using any criteria, that could get Goku anywhere near high enough to cause doubt in the results. Let's say GT base Goku is equal to Z-era Super Saiyan 3. So, for his strength, we take the 40 tons at base in Z, multiply it by 400 (SSJ3 multiplier), and we get 16,000 tons. Now we make that his base strength and multiply it by 4000 to reach his Super Saiyan 4 strength to get 64,000,000 tons. He's still 1,040,625,000,000 times weaker than Superman. How in the world is any feat from GT or any math whatsoever going to prove Goku is over one trillion times stronger than what I just calculated? You have the same problem with the durability rating.

Hell, let's even use Gogeta and assume Goku and Vegeta are straight up multiplied together. Assuming Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta has the same strength as Goku, 64,000,000 X 64,000,000 gives us 4,096,000,000,000,000 tons. Still about 16,260 times weaker than Superman's 66.6 quintillion.

Am I missing something? Is there any way to measure Goku's power (that doesn't involve random guessing) that puts him anywhere close to Clark's numbers?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Are we seriously asking why Goku needs the sun? Well for one he kinda needs to stay warm or He'll you know die. Furthermore if he destroyed the sun, he would likely incinerate himself. Goku obviously has a lower tolerance to heat since he can barely stand lava.

[dario03]

Again, yes it actually does prove your calcs wrong. You might of done the math right but the numbers you used to start with are not. Or we ignore how nobody thinks Goku using just movement speed could travel 20,000km so fast and assume your calcs are completely right. But it still wouldn't matter because then we just do some math with Superman based on things that were actually done in the comics and he is still far far faster.

1 - I'm going to say that it is not smaller than the building pictured. Its not like we can make a exact comparison but the building in GT looks to be about as long maybe a little less but wider and much taller. And your right if the building in GT was 100 times the size of your 6000 ton building it wouldn't be 160,000 tons, it would be 600,000 tons.

- And again I'm still waiting on those strength numbers...

4 - Actually we still don't know that for sure and the important thing is if that would actually matter or not. I say it doesn't because Superman wouldn't need to sun dip.

----

That has been covered already. Superman's speed varies greatly because all of his powers vary greatly. They vary mostly because the different writers give him different feats but the in universe explaination is that Superman holds back greatly and has mental blocks that he put on himself. Eventually he gets rid of the mental blocks though so if he wants to go all out he can. So its not exactly the same thing but you could compare it to listing off the wildly varying feats of Goku without listing when they occured. You know like how it took him months to travel 1,000,000km one time and another time it took about a day.
Thats why I have said that some versions of Superman could lose to some versions of Goku (for Goku it more depends on when in the story) but if we are using their best showings Superman wins. And Death Battle usually uses the best showings of the characters usual powers. They don't usually use special power ups unless its something that was permanent or could easily be done again though. So Superman and Goku can amp themselves up with a sundip and spirit bomb absorbtion but Spawn and Kratos didn't have their full on god powers IIRC.

No actually , Goku's speed at that time was almost 6000 km/s (according to my calcs) .

-OK

4-Yes we do .

I say it doesn't because Superman wouldn't need to sun dip.

We will know that later.

--------------

Every thing about Superman is complicated.

I want to know his real speed -his real strength-his real abilities -his toughest fights .

4 - No actually we don't, you can assume he can all you want but there is no way you can 100% prove that Goku is able to sense the power level of a guy that is from a completely different fiction, is from a alien race, and does not get his super powers from ki. Possible? Yes. guaranteed? No.

When? You keep saying later but you're not really ever saying anything. What exactly is your point now? I've already shown you that by feats or by math the best showings of Superman out does the best showings of Goku but you still seem to think that Goku would some how out do him or at least make him need a sun dip which you say Goku could stop. But you haven't really given any reasons about why he could (heck you're not even talking about points 1-3 anymore).

----

Yes everything about Superman is complicated, nobody ever said it wasn't and a bunch have said that he varies so much that it depends on what version of him you are using. He doesn't have a real speed, a real strength, and his toughest fights are hard to say because of that and the fact that his enemies also vary in power. I mean what was a harder fight for Goku, him vs Raditz, him vs Vegeta, or SS Goku vs Frieza? Freeza was by far the strongest opponent but Goku was by far at his strongest compared to the earlier fights and its also the only time where he had a steady power level that was higher than his opponents.
Plus even if I did list off some fights (like Doomsday, Darkseid, Imperix) what would that even tell you? If you don't know who those other characters are, what happened in the fights, and what they can do in the various stories you won't be able to gauge them or Superman. Think of this way, if you never seen anything to do with Dragon Ball and I told you something like "Hey man, Goku is so powerful he fought Frieza, Buu, Cell, Bebi, Omega Shenron, and Super 17 and he can turn Super Saiyan and then later even Super Saiyan 4!" what does that tell you? Answer, it tells you nothing because you wouldn't know who or what any of that is.

[TonyTheTiger]

Are we seriously asking why Goku needs the sun? Well for one he kinda needs to stay warm or He'll you know die. Furthermore if he destroyed the sun, he would likely incinerate himself. Goku obviously has a lower tolerance to heat since he can barely stand lava.

Even without the temperature changes, would the Earth be able to maintain a breathable atmosphere if it went hurdling through dark space?

[Rocketman]

Even without the temperature changes, would the Earth be able to maintain a breathable atmosphere if it went hurdling through dark space?

In the long term, no. But it would take months for the Earth to cool enough for oxygen to fall as rain.

[Bussani]

Bussani

I believe they came to that conclusion by applying the transformation multipliers to his speed. I should mention that, like a lot of their calculations, I don't agree with that--but I disagree with them for somewhat different reasons from yours.

SSJ = Base form x 50

SSJ2=SSJ X 2

SSJ3=SSJ2 X 4

SSJ4=SSJ3 X 10

That means when Goku start using the SSJ4 he double his speed and strength 4000 times , and that is almost the same thing i'm saying .

And I don't agree with them either, really.

Numbers like ??

How about working out the speed from the feats instead of extrapolating and coming up with results that don't match the feats?

Other strong characters like ??

Super Saiyan Trunks when he flew to get the dragon radar. Buu when he chased after Goku, who had teleported to Vegeta.

He was shocked because it was a teleporting technique , not because of it's speed .

You keep missing the point. Vegeta didn't even believe it was teleportation until they proved it by showing that Goku went somewhere that would be impossible to get to that fast with speed alone.

[valfranx]

@Warcry80:

Comic book debators have a different mentality than Manga/ Anime debators do.

Comic Book debator

The comic book debator is used to having several writers write their character. Because this may cause inconsistencies between writer and writer, handbooks or specific guidelines are made for each character and how they should operate. For example, Captain America and Batman have been consistent characters since day 1. They perform and operate the nearly the same 20 years ago than today. Therefore anything that a writer says or anything said or done by the character in one arc my be disproven or contradictory in other arcs or several arts.

Comic book debators are used to these kind of inconsistencies and often argue against each other to determine a standard base for their favorite comic book characters.

A summary:

The comic book character is handled by several different writers yearly. The comic book debator is used to identifying what is in character and what isn't.
A comic book character usually if not always operates around a standard guideline such as handbook or databook entries. Because of that, the comic book debator is not used to their characters getting power amps that often.
Thanks to said guidelines, the comic book debator usually doesn't have to rely on math, physics or calculations as to how powerful their characters are as most times a narrator will clearly write out a explanation of a feat.
Manga/Anime debator

The manga/anime debator is used to one author that starts and finishes a series. The manga/anime debator is also used to one artist or the creator of the series over seeing all artwork done by their staff. Manga/Anime creators usually elaborate on their own universe or world by writing handbook or databooks themselves (DBZ and Naruto). Because of this, the Manga/Anime debator usually takes what the creator says or does at face value because the creator is solely responsible for the entire Universe they have created and usually do not have anyone else responsible for their own work or stories.

Manga's usually if not always follow a typical shonen style manga where the main character has a eternal rival and as the story progresses both characters continue to get stronger than one another raising the bar and limits each story arc. This is where Manga and Comics defer.

A summary:

Manga/Animes are handled by one writer and artist or their staff that they over see. Feats, interviews and statements from the creators are taken at face value and are not considered hyperbole.
Manga stories are not on going and have a beginning and ending. Because of this, we see the characters progress and outdo not only each other but themselves on a regular basis as they train and getting power upgrades.
Where the Manga and Comic book debator defer

The comic book debator is use to their characters performing feats around a standard guideline as their stories are continuous and ongoing for over 1000s of issues. Captain America will always be around the peak of human evolution, and Batman will always be a genius with a level 10 intellect and the peak of man. Feats are often times more consistent as they have been consistent for 50+ years due to a number of appearances in several comics. Manga/Anime debators are use to their characters starting at level 1 and finish at level 1+ by the end of the series.
Comic book debators are used to several writers taking on their characters storylines and abide by guidelines to determine what is PIS/WIS/AIS/CIS. Manga/Anime characters do no have to worry about this as only one writer or sole creator usually handles their work.
So you see, when mixing the two together, both have different standard and guidelines to analyzing feats.

[Kakarot88]

Hi, I am new to this forum but wanted to contribute:

About a month back I created a blog which discusses how Death Battle erred: first by not accurately calculating Goku and how had they done so the Goku they used, which includes SS3 Goku from Wrath of the Dragon with Super Dragon fist and ease with which he maintains SS3, is the clear winner. Let alone how GT Goku is just ludicrously over powered for the fight. Here's the blog: http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-b ... s-superman


I then follow up with an analysis debunking Ben's "logic" based on his misinterpretation of "the core of Goku and Superman" which was their official reasoning:

If any of you are interested check out the blog here: http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-b ... s-superman

[VegettoEX]

I immediately closed the tab the first time I saw it because of all the terribly-old Japanese->Korean->English and Japanese->Spanish->English scanlations done by people who had no grasp on any of those languages.

It doesn't even matter if the rest of what you wrote is even remotely interesting or persuasive, because you've lost me at that point right there.

[Kakarot88]

That's unfortunate, I used what was available as taking the time to scan all of the pages would never have been posted in time. In the end if you know Dragonball Z you do not even really need to read the scans as they are mostly there to confirm I am not making stuff up.

You being a site administrator I think would actually really enjoy it because you obviously have a passion for Dragonball.

[Rocketman]

I still don't see why it's so terrible that Superman wins.

Could it be that the people arguing this aren't actually fans of the series, but of the strength? They've sunk so much time and effort into their power level lists they HAVE to defend Goku's prowess?

I mean, if Goku's not the strongest ever...then why powerleveltize?

[Kakarot88]

The problem is this:

The extreme margin by which Superman won by Death battle’s estimates is ludicrous and based on "core of the character" and not actual calculations and feats. Seriously, see him say so at the end of the Death Battle video.

So since Wiz did not do the conclusion off of HIS ERRONEOUS NUMBERS but off of "the core of their character" admitting on facebook the numbers were arbitrary: http://i.imgur.com/c416EXF.png “as expressed in the most important part of our recap (after the arbitrary yet expected measurements)."

And based his whole reasoning on plot induced stupidity: “Whenever Goku did these kinds of things it was really really hard on him and like that was clearly his limit at the time that was kind of the deciding factor “ ~Ben "Wiz" Singer (Creator of Death Battle) 56:53 http://youtu.be/ns6POKq2XzY?t=56m53s


We never got a real answer.

Only a misappreciation of both characters.

See the reasoning is inherently flawed because it is not true and actually contradicts itself : for instance: If superman has reached his full potential (which is essentially limitless) and Goku’s potential is limitless then Goku can go further beyond…more at: http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-b ... s-superman


And if one looks through my blog at actual calcs you'll see how diff the fight is.

But Ben essentially threw any type of legitimate calculations out the window because he did not know enough about Goku and only learned about him for this fight rather than having a working knowledge of the character where he could see what they could do rather than in his Superman vacuum or heck consulting his “experts” for his final rationale (http://youtu.be/ns6POKq2XzY?t=56m53s)


ALSO,

consider this:


DC heavily relies on physics and actually talks about how Superman’s mass reduces when he goes above light speed hence why his fists are kept under light speed to do maximum damage. Instead of taking that into consideration I assume Superman’s fist go light speed and he can generate the same damage despite the fact that the Comics disagree with that notion in order for Superman to generate the power needed at the speed needed to fight Goku. Conversely, Toriyama kept amping up his character (physics be damned) and henceforth they are able to generate enhanced force at FTL speed without mass reduction because of their Ki abilities. However, this essentially Toon Force of Goku places Superman at a distinct disadvantage which I did not take into consideration in my blog as that would be unfair to place Superman within the limits of his own verse and instead high ended Superman.