The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Saiga]

That's not relevant to the implication that Gohan gets extra power from anger even as a Super Saiyan 2, though. And I don't think Goku would get Super Saiyan 2 by being angry because he wasn't as strong as Gohan and doesn't get rage boosts like Gohan does. So he's probably further off.

Goku used a "rage boost" to hit SSJ in the first place. ;P

No, he didn't. That's part of Super Saiyan's requirements. Goku doesn't get rage boosts, so there's no reason to think he'd get Super Saiyan 2 that way. Only Gohan was shown to be able to transform like that, and he's a special case when it comes to anger.

[Cursed Lemon]

We saw enough to see that Cell couldn't lay a hand on Gohan. He explicitly had to power up to do so, and complimented Gohan for being so far above Goku. If he could hit him without powering up, why would he? Not to mention that even when he does power up enough to actually touch Gohan, his hits do no real damage.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”

Gohan demonstrated no ability to damage Cell at that point either. If Gohan was that much stronger than Cell even as a regular SSJ, he could've gotten through Cell and killed the Cell Jrs. without needing to transform first.

[Cursed Lemon]

No, he didn't. That's part of Super Saiyan's requirements. Goku doesn't get rage boosts, so there's no reason to think he'd get Super Saiyan 2 that way. Only Gohan was shown to be able to transform like that, and he's a special case when it comes to anger.

Gohan is a special case when it comes to dormant power. He doesn't have a monopoly on anger.

[Saiga]

No, he didn't. That's part of Super Saiyan's requirements. Goku doesn't get rage boosts, so there's no reason to think he'd get Super Saiyan 2 that way. Only Gohan was shown to be able to transform like that, and he's a special case when it comes to anger.

Gohan is a special case when it comes to dormant power. He doesn't have a monopoly on anger.

It's the same shit. He's the only one who draws dormant power from his anger and that is how he turned into a Super Saiyan 2. Goku turned into a Super Saiyan because it requires anger. Super Saiyan 2 is never said to be unlocked that way, and has been unlocked without it, so there's no reason to assume Goku will become one no matter how angry he gets.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan demonstrated no ability to damage Cell at that point either. If Gohan was that much stronger than Cell even as a regular SSJ, he could've gotten through Cell and killed the Cell Jrs. without needing to transform first.

We don't know that because he never even tried to throw a hit at Cell. The one time he actually did, he floored Cell with one kick and made him bleed. Whereas we actually saw Cell pound on Gohan to little effect.

Did he even try to go after the Cell Jrs?

[Cursed Lemon]

It's the same shit. He's the only one who draws dormant power from his anger and that is how he turned into a Super Saiyan 2. Goku turned into a Super Saiyan because it requires anger. Super Saiyan 2 is never said to be unlocked that way, and has been unlocked without it, so there's no reason to assume Goku will become one no matter how angry he gets.

Erm'kay. First of all...



Secondly, Gohan did it, so it's obviously possible. SSJ2 is not exclusive to Gohan, so ultimately it really doesn't matter in the slightest how any one particular saiyan reaches it.

The point is that IF Goku got angry like Gohan did, he was strong enough that he could've hit SSJ2 as well. That is my assertion. Obviously Goku is not prone to being as emotional as Gohan but he did flip out and reach SSJ because of it, so it's not outside the realm of possibility. And if Goku hit SSJ2 in that battle, he would've taken out SPC just like Gohan did. Maybe not in the same circumstances necessarily, but he also probably would've been more in control of himself and not let the fight drag out.

[Cursed Lemon]

We don't know that because he never even tried to throw a hit at Cell. The one time he actually did, he floored Cell with one kick and made him bleed. Whereas we actually saw Cell pound on Gohan to little effect.

Did he even try to go after the Cell Jrs?

I don't know why he would've just stood there and looked so desperately helpless if he had the capabilities, really.

[Saiga]

It's the same shit. He's the only one who draws dormant power from his anger and that is how he turned into a Super Saiyan 2. Goku turned into a Super Saiyan because it requires anger. Super Saiyan 2 is never said to be unlocked that way, and has been unlocked without it, so there's no reason to assume Goku will become one no matter how angry he gets.

Erm'kay. First of all...

Secondly, Gohan did it, so it's obviously possible. SSJ2 is not exclusive to Gohan, so ultimately it really doesn't matter in the slightest how any one particular saiyan reaches it.

The point is that IF Goku got angry like Gohan did, he was strong enough that he could've hit SSJ2 as well. That is my assertion. Obviously Goku is not prone to being as emotional as Gohan but he did flip out and reach SSJ because of it, so it's not outside the realm of possibility. And if Goku hit SSJ2 in that battle, he would've taken out SPC just like Gohan did. Maybe not in the same circumstances necessarily, but he also probably would've been more in control of himself and not let the fight drag out.

Goten and Trunks are tailless hybrids, who do not need anger to reach the form. Gohan did it, so it's obviously possible for the dormant power-type hybrids who draw power from anger. Goku isn't one of these.

The only reason he unlocked Super Saiyan in his anger is because that's the trigger for it (excluding tailless hybrids who have it easier). It's not the trigger for Super Saiyan 2. There's no evidence that he can reach it if he gets angry enough.

Furthermore, if he did somehow have it, Cell would beat him just like he beat Goku before, if not worse. He's already stronger than Goku before he gets his SS2-equivalent, so the difference, at best, remains the same. At worse he's twice as strong as his full power and he absolutely smashes Goku into the ground.

[Cursed Lemon]

Goten and Trunks are tailless hybrids, who do not need anger to reach the form. Gohan did it, so it's obviously possible for the dormant power-type hybrids who draw power from anger. Goku isn't one of these.

I present Exhibit B:

The only reason he unlocked Super Saiyan in his anger is because that's the trigger for it (excluding tailless hybrids who have it easier). It's not the trigger for Super Saiyan 2. There's no evidence that he can reach it if he gets angry enough.

First of all, anger boosts power. That's just...a fact. Human beings are "stronger" when they are angry, and fictional characters are the same. If you are literally arguing that it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE for a pure-blooded saiyan to ever, EVER reach the level of super saiyan, no matter how much he trains and no matter even if his base state is past that of a SSJ2, he won't get the golden hair until he gets pissed off...then I don't really know what to tell you. I don't think that's how SSJ levels work.

Secondly, how exactly do "tailless hybrids" have it easier if not for the simple fact going SSJ doesn't necessarily require anger, regardless of what the guidebooks say? Anger may very well be the easiest way of pushing yourself to a new level, but that doesn't mean it has to be the only way.

Furthermore, if he did somehow have it, Cell would beat him just like he beat Goku before, if not worse. He's already stronger than Goku before he gets his SS2-equivalent, so the difference, at best, remains the same. At worse he's twice as strong as his full power and he absolutely smashes Goku into the ground.

I refuse to believe that SPC got a 2x boost from his regeneration because that just makes zero sense given how the beam struggle played out.

[Saiga]

I present Exhibit B:

Manga version: he has it before Gohan's death, even when he's a weakling.

First of all, anger boosts power. That's just...a fact. Human beings are "stronger" when they are angry, and fictional characters are the same. If you are literally arguing that it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE for a pure-blooded saiyan to ever, EVER reach the level of super saiyan, no matter how much he trains and no matter even if his base state is past that of a SSJ2, he won't get the golden hair until he gets pissed off...then I don't really know what to tell you. I don't think that's how SSJ levels work.

It doesn't boost battle power unless you're Gohan. It doesn't draw out dormant power unless you're Gohan. That's how Super Saiyan officially works - Goku straight up says it doesn't happen by just powering up, and you need anger.

Secondly, how exactly do "tailless hybrids" have it easier if not for the simple fact going SSJ doesn't necessarily require anger, regardless of what the guidebooks say? Anger may very well be the easiest way of pushing yourself to a new level, but that doesn't mean it has to be the only way.

Well, that's not only what Goku but guidebooks say. The tailless hybrids are the exception to the rule, and can master it easily without the anger.

I refuse to believe that SPC got a 2x boost from his regeneration because that just makes zero sense given how the beam struggle played out.

Why? Gohan was losing that. I don't see how it can't fit, say my numbers:

Goku - 2
Cell (vs Goku) - 2.25
SS2-esque - 4.5
Gohan - 2.5
SS2 - 5
+rage - 6
injured - 3

Again, the Boo arc strongly implies that Gohan does get more strength from his anger even while a Super Saiyan 2.

[RandomGuy96]

We don't know that because he never even tried to throw a hit at Cell. The one time he actually did, he floored Cell with one kick and made him bleed. Whereas we actually saw Cell pound on Gohan to little effect.

Did he even try to go after the Cell Jrs?

I don't know why he would've just stood there and looked so desperately helpless if he had the capabilities, really.

So, "no" in other words?

He didn't want to fight. He explicitly said that.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Imperfect Cell Vs Super Saiyan Vegeta

This is the Cell that fought Piccolo in the city. Cell said that Vegeta was more powerful than he thought, and Vegeta thought he had an "absurdly large" power. How would the battle look if Vegeta ended up finding Cell while he was escaping from Piccolo?

[dbgtFO]

I think Cell might not be that much stronger, if at all, but I do think Cell could catch Vegeta by surprise with his tail, so Cell wins.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku says that he definitely can't beat Cell before he does that power up, but I don't know what he's basing that on. If it's true, that would probably make Cell marginally stronger than Vegeta at this point, since he said he definitely couldn't win, whereas there was barley any difference in his and Vegeta's powers. Cell was also weaker than Piccolo, but not so much weaker that Piccolo could one-shot him, or that he wouldn't have any chance of winning, since Piccolo only says that Cell "under these circumstances, has no chance of winning" after Trunks arrives as back-up. Implying he would have a chance, though a slim one, if they fought it out.

Combine those two comments implying superior strength with better physical attributes and abilities, as well as the energy consumption of the SS form, and Cell has a pretty solid victory.

[dbgtFO]

Oh right Goku does say that, so I guess Cell could win in a proper fight, instead of having a gameplan revolve around absorbing his power somehow.

[Kaboom]

I would think that Vegeta's weaker than Cell at that point, but still strong and close enough to him in power that Cell wasn't willing to risk fighting him. Especially because, if I'm remember the timing right, Cell had only JUST escaped from Piccolo in Ginger Town, and letting another high-power fight break out would just lead Piccolo right back to him.

So as far as a fight goes, I think Vegeta would be at a moderate disadvantage in power. He'd have a shot at winning, but only a small one.

[Rocketman]

It might come down to how much power Cell loses when he regenerates.

[Saiga]

I think with Vegeta having a disadvantage in power, he'd have a hard time avoiding Cell's tail, and Cell would eventually steal his energy (probably crippling Vegeta at the same time) leading to his victory.

[Kid Buu]

21st Budokai:

Yamcha Vs. Bacterian

Kuririn Vs. Nam

[Kamiccolo9]

21st Budokai:

Yamcha Vs. Bacterian

Kuririn Vs. Nam

Bacterian. Yamcha has a nose.

Nam beats Krillin. He gave Goku a good fight, and Goku's got durability that Krillin couldn't hope to match at that point.