Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

This doesn't make sense because Black is leagues stronger than Goku, if what you say is true they'd be equals. The potential Black is unlocking isn't Goku's, it stems from Zamasu.

I'm not discounting the possibility that it might have something to do with Zamasu's potential as opposed to Goku's or some weird combination thereof, but it seems to go against some of the ideas that were presented in the narrative. I recall a throw-away line in the anime mentioning that Black may have been as strong as he was because he comes from one year in the future, and then in Chapter 20, Black says "It's just as you said, Vegeta. I had thought that I'd immediately gain all of Son Goku's power the moment I took his body. But... I was wrong" moments before powering up from regular Super Saiyan to Rosé.

I just find it a bit hard to imagine this not being the case if it's the only idea the anime and manga attempted to convey, unless I'm missing something.

[TheUltimateNinja]

This doesn't make sense because Black is leagues stronger than Goku, if what you say is true they'd be equals. The potential Black is unlocking isn't Goku's, it stems from Zamasu.

I'm not discounting the possibility that it might have something to do with Zamasu's potential as opposed to Goku's or some weird combination thereof, but it seems to go against some of the ideas that were presented in the narrative. I recall a throw-away line in the anime mentioning that Black may have been as strong as he was because he comes from one year in the future, and then in Chapter 20, Black says "It's just as you said, Vegeta. I had thought that I'd immediately gain all of Son Goku's power the moment I took his body. But... I was wrong" moments before powering up from regular Super Saiyan to Rosé.

I just find it a bit hard to imagine this not being the case if it's the only idea the anime and manga attempted to convey, unless I'm missing something.

Goku and Vegeta were already stated to have trained to their limits multiple times in the manga. Two prominent examples are in this very chapter and when they trained in the RoSAT for 3 years before the U6 tournament.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I just double checked and the line about them hitting their limits in the RoSAT is anime-only. Anyway, there's still this chapter.

[Marlowe89]

I just double checked and the line about them hitting their limits in the RoSAT is anime-only. Anyway, there's still this chapter.

I took that to mean they'd both just reached their present limits, not necessarily that those limits couldn't increase over time with training. After all, Black is from a whole year in the future. In a franchise that's all about growing stronger, it doesn't seem very likely to me that Goku and Vegeta would remain at a stagnant level of power throughout the rest of their lifetimes.

Zenkai (at least as it's currently portrayed) is a way to reach one's ceiling, but that ceiling could always be raised, no?

[TheUltimateNinja]

I just double checked and the line about them hitting their limits in the RoSAT is anime-only. Anyway, there's still this chapter.

I took that to mean they'd both just reached their present limits, not necessarily that those limits couldn't increase over time with training. After all, Black is from a whole year in the future. In a franchise that's all about growing stronger, it doesn't seem very likely to me that Goku and Vegeta would remain at a stagnant level of power throughout the rest of their lifetimes.

Zenkai (at least as it's currently portrayed) is a way to reach one's ceiling, but that ceiling could always be raised, no?

I don't think a single year is close to enough for Goku's base to suddenly jump to SSJ3 level, especially since all signs point to his growth rate actually becoming slower over time.

[The gr]

I got into a debate with ultimate ninja about tagoma vs Dabura and I say tagoma win this one what are thoughts on this

[RandomGuy96]

I'm beginning to think that Gotenks, Gohan, Piccolo and the rest are really just extremely weak rather than Goku's base being really strong. When a Zarbon-tier fighter was stronger than Piccolo, people dismissed it. When Freeza's 1st form was stated to have a likely power level of 1.3 million, and that same form effortlessly trounced Piccolo and SS Gohan, people dismissed it. When Roshi and Jaco were able to fight the same goons that could give Krillin trouble, people ignored it. When Mr. Buu was referred to as "amazingly strong" in the context of the U6 tournament and lasted longer against Beerus than any of the non-Gokus while both Ultimate-ish Gohan and Piccolo were treated as being so weak as to not even be worth mentioning, people ignored it.

But now Krillin has been hurt by a bullet and it's been blamed on decay, which is a far bigger jump than any of those. I think they really might have just been that weak.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I honestly have come to the belief that we need to step back and look at this from a production stand-point.

1) Battle of Gods: Goku's Super Saiyan was supposed to be SSG level.

2) Resurrection 'F': Goku's Base form was supposed to be SSG level. He gains SSBlue to replace SSGod. It is implied the SSBlue and strong Base are his only forms now.

3) U6, Monaka-Beerus, Copy-Vegeta: SS1, SS2, and SS3 make an appearance. Goku's Base can be called SSGod level or pre-DBSuper. Both are seen.

4) Future Trunks and beyond: pre-DBSuper Base, SS1, SS2, SS3, and SSBlue are shown. They have stayed consistent with this the whole time.

The first two sagas were probably closer to the movies to respect Toriyama-sensei, as is custom in the culture. The third part of this was probably a transition until they had a better idea production-wise. The fourth section is probably what they will keep until DBSuper ends. It was probably also their intent from the beginning that they were trying to sort through.

This leaves:

Weak Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < SSGod = Strong Base supposed to be at SSGod level = SS supposed to be at SSGod level < SSBlue

The two forms not underlined can be seen as forms when the production was not clear on what was happening. In order to explain the absence of them since Copy-Vegeta, we may have to see them in-universe as forms that Goku had, but just went away through accumulation into SSBlue. Sadly, we can't ignore that they happened in-universe.

[HeroR]

I honestly have come to the belief that we need to step back and look at this from a production stand-point.

1) Battle of Gods: Goku's Super Saiyan was supposed to be SSG level.

2) Resurrection 'F': Goku's Base form was supposed to be SSG level. He gains SSBlue to replace SSGod. It is implied the SSBlue and strong Base are his only forms now.

3) U6, Monaka-Beerus, Copy-Vegeta: SS1, SS2, and SS3 make an appearance. Goku's Base can be called SSGod level or pre-DBSuper. Both are seen.

4) Future Trunks and beyond: pre-DBSuper Base, SS1, SS2, SS3, and SSBlue are shown. They have stayed consistent with this the whole time.

The first two sagas were probably closer to the movies to respect Toriyama-sensei, as is custom in the culture. The third part of this was probably a transition until they had a better idea production-wise. The fourth section is probably what they will keep until DBSuper ends. It was probably also their intent from the beginning that they were trying to sort through.

This leaves:

Weak Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < SSGod = Strong Base supposed to be at SSGod level = SS supposed to be at SSGod level < SSBlue

The two forms not underlined can be seen as forms when the production was not clear on what was happening. In order to explain the absence of them since Copy-Vegeta, we may have to see them in-universe as forms that Goku had, but just went away through accumulation into SSBlue. Sadly, we can't ignore that they happened in-universe.

There is literally no evidence of this since Goku didn't fight in his base form in the Future Trunks Saga. Also, why would Gowasu say that Goku rivals a God of Destruction as a Super Saiyan 2 if he was only capable to South Supreme Kai who was the strongest Supreme Kai seen in the series before Zamasu? And why would Zamasu be called special if he was still that much weaker than South Supreme Kai?

In fact, if Goku was all the way down to where he was at pre-BOG, his Super Saiyan 2 would be considered weak since all the U7 Supreme Kais outside of East Supreme Kai was stronger than that. And it goes against what Toriyama said about Goku working on making his base form stronger along with his Super Saiyan form if all his gains are literally just going into his god form. Which no Super Saiyan form works like that since they're multipliers of a Saiyan's base form.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I honestly have come to the belief that we need to step back and look at this from a production stand-point.

1) Battle of Gods: Goku's Super Saiyan was supposed to be SSG level.

2) Resurrection 'F': Goku's Base form was supposed to be SSG level. He gains SSBlue to replace SSGod. It is implied the SSBlue and strong Base are his only forms now.

3) U6, Monaka-Beerus, Copy-Vegeta: SS1, SS2, and SS3 make an appearance. Goku's Base can be called SSGod level or pre-DBSuper. Both are seen.

4) Future Trunks and beyond: pre-DBSuper Base, SS1, SS2, SS3, and SSBlue are shown. They have stayed consistent with this the whole time.

The first two sagas were probably closer to the movies to respect Toriyama-sensei, as is custom in the culture. The third part of this was probably a transition until they had a better idea production-wise. The fourth section is probably what they will keep until DBSuper ends. It was probably also their intent from the beginning that they were trying to sort through.

This leaves:

Weak Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < SSGod = Strong Base supposed to be at SSGod level = SS supposed to be at SSGod level < SSBlue

The two forms not underlined can be seen as forms when the production was not clear on what was happening. In order to explain the absence of them since Copy-Vegeta, we may have to see them in-universe as forms that Goku had, but just went away through accumulation into SSBlue. Sadly, we can't ignore that they happened in-universe.

There is literally no evidence of this since Goku didn't fight in his base form in the Future Trunks Saga. Also, why would Gowasu say that Goku rivals a God of Destruction as a Super Saiyan 2 if he was only capable to South Supreme Kai who was the strongest Supreme Kai seen in the series before Zamasu? And why would Zamasu be called special if he was still that much weaker than South Supreme Kai?

In fact, if Goku was all the way down to where he was at pre-BOG, his Super Saiyan 2 would be considered weak since all the U7 Supreme Kais outside of East Supreme Kai was stronger than that. And it goes against what Toriyama said about Goku working on making his base form stronger along with his Super Saiyan form if all his gains are literally just going into his god form. Which no Super Saiyan form works like that since they're multipliers of a Saiyan's base form.

Looking at it from a production standpoint though, can you see how all of us could be over-complicating this by looking too deeply?

[HeroR]

Looking at it from a production standpoint though, can you see how all of us could be over-complicating this by looking too deeply?

As I said, why would they retcon their entire power scale when no such thing has been hinted? Or have Gowasu say that Goku rivals a God of Destruction if he was only as strong as he was during the Buu Saga, which is actually pretty weak or mediocre for a Supreme Kai if the U7 Supreme Kais are anything to go by. Which in turn would make Zamasu weak since he's supposed to be a prodigy Supreme Kai, yet he's only as strong a Dabura.

If anything, they would simply make everyone stronger like Toriyama did for Piccolo in the Android Saga where he went from being stomped by third form Freeza to wiping the floor with Android 20 who was stated to be stronger than Freeza. Toriyama didn't gimp Goku or Vegeta to keep the story going, he made everyone else stronger. So why would he suddenly make everyone weaker now?

And even if rushed, Toriyama literally had months to tell the anime staff that he changed his mind about Resurrection 'F' since that saga didn't aired until the fall and Super started in the summer. Not to mentioned the Champa Saga that didn't air until January of last year and Toriyama could have told them then that he changed his mind.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Looking at it from a production standpoint though, can you see how all of us could be over-complicating this by looking too deeply?

As I said, why would they retcon their entire power scale when no such thing has been hinted? Or have Gowasu say that Goku rivals a God of Destruction if he was only as strong as he was during the Buu Saga, which is actually pretty weak or mediocre for a Supreme Kai if the U7 Supreme Kais are anything to go by. Which in turn would make Zamasu weak since he's supposed to be a prodigy Supreme Kai, yet he's only as strong a Dabura.

If anything, they would simply make everyone stronger like Toriyama did for Piccolo in the Android Saga where he went from being stomped by third form Freeza to wiping the floor with Android 20 who was stated to be stronger than Freeza. Toriyama didn't gimp Goku or Vegeta to keep the story going, he made everyone else stronger. So why would he suddenly make everyone weaker now?

I see your points, and I can be totally wrong on this whole thing, haha. If I were to look at it differently, I don't understand how Future Trunks as a Super Saiyan 2 could not sense God Ki. SSGod level is supposed to be around where you can sense God Ki, yet Future Trunks should have been higher than that as an SS2.

[HeroR]

I see your points, and I can be totally wrong on this whole thing, haha. If I were to look at it differently, I don't understand how Future Trunks as a Super Saiyan 2 could not sense God Ki. SSGod level is supposed to be around where you can sense God Ki, yet Future Trunks should have been higher than that as an SS2.

There was no indication that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku since Goku did nothing but block and caught Trunks' fists with eased. It was barely a sparring match since Goku literally did nothing until he went Super Saiyan 3 and stomped Trunks.

We also saw Super Saiyan 2 Goku fight Black to a standstill, while Black smashed Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in seconds when they first met, and he was weaker then. Now, Black was holding back, but he wouldn't have been impressed by Goku's power if he was only equal to Trunks at that point.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I see your points, and I can be totally wrong on this whole thing, haha. If I were to look at it differently, I don't understand how Future Trunks as a Super Saiyan 2 could not sense God Ki. SSGod level is supposed to be around where you can sense God Ki, yet Future Trunks should have been higher than that as an SS2.

There was no indication that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku since Goku did nothing but block and caught Trunks' fists with eased. It was barely a sparring match since Goku literally did nothing until he went Super Saiyan 3 and stomped Trunks.

We also saw Super Saiyan 2 Goku fight Black to a standstill, while Black smashed Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in seconds when they first met, and he was weaker then. Now, Black was holding back, but he wouldn't have been impressed by Goku's power if he was only equal to Trunks at that point.

So you'd say:

When SS2 Goku fought SS2 Future Trunks he was using around Buu Saga SS2 power? When SS2 Goku fought Black he was using around SS2 with God Essence power?

Like this (I understand that only SSGod and SSBlue have God Ki. I'm just using these names for simplicity):

Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Saiyan Beyond God
SSGod = Super Saiyan Beyond God
Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God
Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God
Super Saiyan Blue

[HeroR]

So you'd say:

When SS2 Goku fought SS2 Future Trunks he was using around Buu Saga SS2 power? When SS2 Goku fought Black he was using around SS2 with God Essence power?

Like this (I understand that only SSGod and SSBlue have God Ki. I'm just using these names for simplicity):

Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Saiyan Beyond God
SSGod = Super Saiyan Beyond God
Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God
Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God
Super Saiyan Blue

No, I doubt Goku has several forms of Super Saiyans or anything like 'Super Saiyan Beyond God'. IMO, it's the standard suppressed state we have seen all the time in Z. Like Super Saiyan Goku in the Cell Games didn't go all out against Cell until later despite being a Super Saiyan. Or Cell who managed to hold back a lot of power to the point that everyone was shocked when he powered-up against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Going back even further, Goku had a power level of 5,000 when he confronted the Saiyans and then it jumped to over 8,000 once he powered-up.

In other words, he wasn't going all out against Trunks, while Black pushed him far more.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So you'd say:

When SS2 Goku fought SS2 Future Trunks he was using around Buu Saga SS2 power? When SS2 Goku fought Black he was using around SS2 with God Essence power?

Like this (I understand that only SSGod and SSBlue have God Ki. I'm just using these names for simplicity):

Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Saiyan Beyond God
SSGod = Super Saiyan Beyond God
Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God
Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God
Super Saiyan Blue

No, I doubt Goku has several forms of Super Saiyans or anything like 'Super Saiyan Beyond God'. IMO, it's the standard suppressed state we have seen all the time in Z. Like Super Saiyan Goku in the Cell Games didn't go all out against Cell until later despite being a Super Saiyan. Or Cell who managed to hold back a lot of power to the point that everyone was shocked when he powered-up against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Going back even further, Goku had a power level of 5,000 when he confronted the Saiyans and then it jumped to over 8,000 once he powered-up.

In other words, he wasn't going all out against Trunks, while Black pushed him far more.

I apologize. I don't think I was making my last post very clear. Based on the theory of Goku absorbing SSGod power ... I was renaming his new base form Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God, and Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God (bear with me on the naming; again, none of these have god ki).

I use the name Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God to represent Goku's new SS2 form and how powerful it could get if he went all out in this form now. This list was meant to represent what I understand to be the upper limits of each form in comparison to each other power-wise. Meaning, if Goku tapped into his DBZ Super Saiyan 3 to the fullest potential, he could never reach the maximum power of his new base form. However, his new SS2 form (SS2 Beyond God) could be suppressed to near zero. Meaning any of the forms could go from near zero to where they are ranked in terms of full power.

Power Level of Near Zero
Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Saiyan Beyond God
SSGod = Super Saiyan Beyond God
Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God
Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God
Super Saiyan Blue

[HeroR]

I apologize. I don't think I was making my last post very clear. Based on the theory of Goku absorbing SSGod power ... I was renaming his new base form Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God, and Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God (bear with me on the naming; again, none of these have god ki).

I use the name Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God to represent Goku's new SS2 form and how powerful it could get if he went all out in this form now. This list was meant to represent what I understand to be the upper limits of each form in comparison to each other power-wise. Meaning, if Goku tapped into his DBZ Super Saiyan 3 to the fullest potential, he could never reach the maximum power of his new base form. However, his new SS2 form (SS2 Beyond God) could be suppressed to near zero. Meaning any of the forms could go from near zero to where they are ranked in terms of full power.

Power Level of Near Zero
Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Saiyan Beyond God
SSGod = Super Saiyan Beyond God
Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God
Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God
Super Saiyan Blue

I see what you're saying now. Yeah, I misunderstood.

Yeah, this is what I personally believe. Goku's base or Super Saiyan form is as strong as Super Saiyan God, which at this point should be stronger than what it was in BOG.

[pacz360]

So you'd say:

When SS2 Goku fought SS2 Future Trunks he was using around Buu Saga SS2 power? When SS2 Goku fought Black he was using around SS2 with God Essence power?

Like this (I understand that only SSGod and SSBlue have God Ki. I'm just using these names for simplicity):

Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Saiyan Beyond God
SSGod = Super Saiyan Beyond God
Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God
Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God
Super Saiyan Blue

No, I doubt Goku has several forms of Super Saiyans or anything like 'Super Saiyan Beyond God'. IMO, it's the standard suppressed state we have seen all the time in Z. Like Super Saiyan Goku in the Cell Games didn't go all out against Cell until later despite being a Super Saiyan. Or Cell who managed to hold back a lot of power to the point that everyone was shocked when he powered-up against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Going back even further, Goku had a power level of 5,000 when he confronted the Saiyans and then it jumped to over 8,000 once he powered-up.

In other words, he wasn't going all out against Trunks, while Black pushed him far more.

I apologize. I don't think I was making my last post very clear. Based on the theory of Goku absorbing SSGod power ... I was renaming his new base form Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God, and Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God (bear with me on the naming; again, none of these have god ki).

I use the name Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God to represent Goku's new SS2 form and how powerful it could get if he went all out in this form now. This list was meant to represent what I understand to be the upper limits of each form in comparison to each other power-wise. Meaning, if Goku tapped into his DBZ Super Saiyan 3 to the fullest potential, he could never reach the maximum power of his new base form. However, his new SS2 form (SS2 Beyond God) could be suppressed to near zero. Meaning any of the forms could go from near zero to where they are ranked in terms of full power.

Power Level of Near Zero
Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Saiyan Beyond God
SSGod = Super Saiyan Beyond God
Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God
Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God
Super Saiyan Blue

This I could agree with.

[Bullza]

I got into a debate with ultimate ninja about tagoma vs Dabura and I say tagoma win this one what are thoughts on this

I'd say Dabura. I have Dabura as being about as strong as Super Perfect Cell.

Tagoma I'd say was around as strong as a Cell Jr. Could easily be higher.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I got into a debate with ultimate ninja about tagoma vs Dabura and I say tagoma win this one what are thoughts on this

I'd say Dabura. I have Dabura as being about as strong as Super Perfect Cell.

Tagoma I'd say was around as strong as a Cell Jr. Could easily be higher.

According to Herms Gohan says Tagoma may possess power rivaling his peak, as in his current maximum, and since at that time he wasn't considering SSJ, Tagoma = Base Gohan's maximum. And Base Gohan wasn't that much stronger than Piccolo.

Anyway, any estimates for the power gap between SSJ2 Trunks and SSJ3 Goku (Manga)?
Right now I'm considering this:
SSJ2 Trunks: 14
SSJ3 Goku: 15