Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

No, I doubt Goku has several forms of Super Saiyans or anything like 'Super Saiyan Beyond God'. IMO, it's the standard suppressed state we have seen all the time in Z. Like Super Saiyan Goku in the Cell Games didn't go all out against Cell until later despite being a Super Saiyan. Or Cell who managed to hold back a lot of power to the point that everyone was shocked when he powered-up against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Going back even further, Goku had a power level of 5,000 when he confronted the Saiyans and then it jumped to over 8,000 once he powered-up.

In other words, he wasn't going all out against Trunks, while Black pushed him far more.

I apologize. I don't think I was making my last post very clear. Based on the theory of Goku absorbing SSGod power ... I was renaming his new base form Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God, and Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God (bear with me on the naming; again, none of these have god ki).

I use the name Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God to represent Goku's new SS2 form and how powerful it could get if he went all out in this form now. This list was meant to represent what I understand to be the upper limits of each form in comparison to each other power-wise. Meaning, if Goku tapped into his DBZ Super Saiyan 3 to the fullest potential, he could never reach the maximum power of his new base form. However, his new SS2 form (SS2 Beyond God) could be suppressed to near zero. Meaning any of the forms could go from near zero to where they are ranked in terms of full power.

Power Level of Near Zero
Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Saiyan Beyond God
SSGod = Super Saiyan Beyond God
Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God
Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God
Super Saiyan Blue

This I could agree with.

The biggest things for me are Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Gohan keeping up with each other, Super Saiyan Goku fighting Beerus in outer space easily, and just last night rewatching Zamasu vs. SS2 Goku.

It really has to be that absorbing SSGod, just allowed Base, SS1, SS2, and SS3 maximum power levels to be pushed further along the scale. This would explain for SS Goku vs. SS Gohan AND SS Goku vs. Beerus. It would explain SS2 Goku vs. SS2 Future Trunks AND SS2 Goku vs. Zamasu. It's like SSGod absorption shifted everything further to the right on the x-axis, haha. One could argue that Super Saiyan Goku vs. Frost was suppressing the maximum SS power because he can fight at SSGod Goku level in it. That might explain both a strong SS and the idea of a weak Frost.

This means that if Goku calms his Ki Control in SS it then becomes SSBlue ... couldn't he do the same thing with SS2 and SS3 becoming SS2 Blue and SS3 Blue?

[Marlowe89]

There was no indication that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku since Goku did nothing but block and caught Trunks' fists with eased.

Goku's arms were shaking when he caught Trunks' fists, so obviously it wasn't "with ease", and the episode's dialogue literally says that Trunks was overpowering Goku at first.

There were certainly indications that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and Super Saiyan 2 Goku were somewhere in the same ballpark.

[HeroR]

There was no indication that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku since Goku did nothing but block and caught Trunks' fists with eased.

Goku's arms were shaking when he caught Trunks' fists, so obviously it wasn't "with ease", and the episode's dialogue literally says that Trunks was overpowering Goku at first.

There were certainly indications that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and Super Saiyan 2 Goku were somewhere in the same ballpark.

That was from Present Trunks, Vegeta was watching the entire thing said nothing, and none of Future Trunks' attacks hurt Goku who literally did nothing but block. And it was with ease since he caught Trunks in the middle of his attack with no effort.

[Marlowe89]

That was from Present Trunks, Vegeta was watching the entire thing said nothing, and none of Future Trunks' attacks hurt Goku who literally did nothing but block. And it was with ease since he caught Trunks in the middle of his attack with no effort.

It doesn't matter which character said it, the line was there nonetheless and was presented from the studio to the viewer in clear-cut fashion. If it was "with ease", Goku wouldn't have been continuously pushed back for a period of time and his arms wouldn't have been shaking while struggling with Trunks. There is absolutely no implication he caught that attack with no effort.

[HeroR]

That was from Present Trunks, Vegeta was watching the entire thing said nothing, and none of Future Trunks' attacks hurt Goku who literally did nothing but block. And it was with ease since he caught Trunks in the middle of his attack with no effort.

It doesn't matter which character said it, the line was there nonetheless and was presented from the studio to the viewer in clear-cut fashion. If it was "with ease", Goku wouldn't have been continuously pushed back for a period of time and his arms wouldn't have been shaking while struggling with Trunks. There is absolutely no implication he caught that attack with no effort.

It does matter because different characters give statement weight. And Goku could have been 'pushed back' simply because he allowed it instead of brick wall, which Goku has done such things in the past.

Also, Goku caught Trunks in the middle of an attack and complimented him. If he was struggling or closed to even, Trunks should have been able to break free of his hold. Instead, Goku had to let go himself.

[Marlowe89]

It does matter because different characters give statement weight. And Goku could have been 'pushed back' simply because he allowed it instead of brick wall, which Goku has done such things in the past.

Not really in this context - Vegeta was just as silent in the manga when this happened. Both the anime and manga versions of this scene have a line where it's clearly expressed that Trunks was beginning to overpower Goku. You're just assuming that the line is wrong/misguided in one version but completely accurate in the other just because it fits your theory, which of course is utterly absurd.

You're also assuming Goku was pushed back because he "allowed it" even though the scene provides no indication whatsoever that that was the case. This is ironic, considering that earlier in this thread you were just making the argument of "but there's no indication for this viewpoint".

If he was struggling or closed to even, Trunks should have been able to break free of his hold. Instead, Goku had to let go himself.

Nothing implied that Trunks was in some kind of inescapable hold, and the scene only shows Trunks pulling away because he decided it was no use.

You might be referring to Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. Trunks, but that's irrelevant to our discussion.

[Bullza]

According to Herms Gohan says Tagoma may possess power rivaling his peak, as in his current maximum, and since at that time he wasn't considering SSJ, Tagoma = Base Gohan's maximum. And Base Gohan wasn't that much stronger than Piccolo.

That's all true however Gohan was referring to Tagoma when he was still in control of his body. Not when Ginyu took over and then brought out his full power.

In other words

Tagoma (Ginyu) > Tagoma = Base Gohan > Piccolo (at least with weights)

There's nothing to say he couldn't be stronger than Dabura. It would depend on how significantly he powered up after Ginyu took over but otherwise I'd say he was in the general Cell Games saga level.

[supercat]

I don't see how Dabura or any of the weaker forms of Buu could do anything to Tagoma, let alone defeat him. There's this assumption that Gohan fell worlds below his Buu arc self, just because he was uncertain he could go Super Saiyan. Well has it ever occurred to any of you that he was simply rusty, and it was said rustiness that resulted in obtaining full power require Super Saiyan? Meaning, he could very well have tapped into the same level of power he had when he flat-out humiliated Super Buu, but simply needed Super Saiyan to do so.

Now, some of you might rebut by saying such a concept was never once talked about or mentioned, but I think it's pretty obvious that I could easily counter back by saying the same thing about the whole "Gohan got weaker" argument.

It's been years since the Buu arc. Buu and his overrated incarnations are just that at this point; overrated.

So to sum it all up, I have the following:

SSJ Gohan = Ultimate Gohan (at the very least) > / = Ginyu-Tagoma > Super Buu > / = Tagoma > Majin Buu (pre-split) > Base Gohan > Piccolo

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Base Gohan isn't stronger than Piccolo. A weakened Super Gohan was stated to be above Piccolo. Gohan stated that he couldn't release enough of his potential to beat Ginyu due to lack of training. He used Super Saiyan to compensate, though nothing implies that he was anywhere near his Boo arc power.
This is basically how it would look in numbers:

[spoiler]Rebirth of F arc Piccolo: 2,300,000,000

Shisami: 2,400,000,000

Rebirth of F arc Base Gohan: 85,000,000
Super Gohan(Some potential unleashed): 2,700,000,000

Tagoma: 3,100,000,000
Ginyu(Tagoma's body): 3,600,000,000

Super Saiyan Gohan: 4,250,000,000[/spoiler]

[supercat]

Not being able to release his full potential in base, then going SSJ to do so could mean that he was unable to access his ritual-induced power without transforming, as he did in the Buu arc. On the contrary, nothing ever explicitly confirmed that Gohan got weaker.

[pacz360]

Not being able to release his full potential in base, then going SSJ to do so could mean that he was unable to access his ritual-induced power without transforming, as he did in the Buu arc. On the contrary, nothing ever explicitly confirmed that Gohan got weaker.

Holy shit you here. hows it going man? Been a while since i seen you.

[supercat]

Not being able to release his full potential in base, then going SSJ to do so could mean that he was unable to access his ritual-induced power without transforming, as he did in the Buu arc. On the contrary, nothing ever explicitly confirmed that Gohan got weaker.

Holy shit you here. hows it going man? Been a while since i seen you.

Hey! Yeah, it's definitely been awhile! I'm good, how are you?

[pacz360]

Not being able to release his full potential in base, then going SSJ to do so could mean that he was unable to access his ritual-induced power without transforming, as he did in the Buu arc. On the contrary, nothing ever explicitly confirmed that Gohan got weaker.

Holy shit you here. hows it going man? Been a while since i seen you.

Hey! Yeah, it's definitely been awhile! I'm good, how are you?

Very good man ready for the new arc

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

If Gohan was using SSJ then he wasn't using the potential power that Elder Kai unlocked. It's that simple. Gohan powers up to his potential unlocked state. It isn't his base power and his base power had only gotten weaker since the Boo saga.

By the same logic being used, Boo arc SSJ Gohan would be on par with Super Gohan.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'm starting to say I wanted to believe the Retcon Theory and, by extension, the Two-Base Theory ... but after rewatching Dragon Ball Super Episode 53 from 16 minutes 25 second until the end of the episode ... I can't ignore the fact that SS2 Goku beat Zamasu, and it's implied Zamasu is crazy strong ... Gowasu was surprised Goku fought Beerus and lived.

[Marlowe89]

I'm starting to say I wanted to believe the Retcon Theory and, by extension, the Two-Base Theory ... but after rewatching Dragon Ball Super Episode 53 from 16 minutes 25 second until the end of the episode ... I can't ignore the fact that SS2 Goku beat Zamasu, and it's implied Zamasu is crazy strong ... Gowasu was surprised Goku fought Beerus and lived.

Proponents of those theories don't deny that Zamasu is stronger than a Supreme Kai typically would be, though. He's blatantly made out to be a prodigy and nothing suggests otherwise.

Even I believe Goku to be comfortably stronger than he was in the Buu saga, with godly powers or without.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm starting to say I wanted to believe the Retcon Theory and, by extension, the Two-Base Theory ... but after rewatching Dragon Ball Super Episode 53 from 16 minutes 25 second until the end of the episode ... I can't ignore the fact that SS2 Goku beat Zamasu, and it's implied Zamasu is crazy strong ... Gowasu was surprised Goku fought Beerus and lived.

Proponents of those theories don't deny that Zamasu is stronger than a Supreme Kai typically would be, though. He's blatantly made out to be a prodigy and nothing suggests otherwise.

Even I believe Goku to be comfortably stronger than he was in the Buu saga, with godly powers or without.

Zamasu isn't that tough, he's most likely weaker than South Kaioshin if the Two Base/Retcon theories are to be believed.

[brett wheeler]

1. I still put goku and vegeta in base around upper buu saga characters lvl's ( ult. gohan, buutenks, buuhan, ssj vegito you pick witch one ). That means his base threw ssj3 are ridiculously strong to the point that you would assume there on par with gods of destruction especially since gods of destruction never go all out so you probably have to just estimate. I would also say that gowasu was comparing his power to being close to all he has seen from u10 god of destruction in witch beerus knew better so corrected him. Think about it all the power beerus would need to flick away ssj3 goku would be around the same lvl as ssj2 or 3 vegito buu saga same with every body else witch by the way he is portrayed is nothing so for gowasu to not know if his god of destruction is stronger is no big shocker hell kibito kai sensed beerus energy and still wasnt to horribly scared till beerus put in some acul effort then he nearly pissed himself. Over all goku base and vegeta base to me is probably around the same lvl as ssj vegito ( he simply held back against gohan ) and he can go from base to ssb no second base ssg can be a normal transformation if you want or not and it still makes sense to where goku and vegeta base stand.

2. with my statement above beerus remark still makes sense as goku did get a boost from ssg just not to the extent in witch you think, goku was only keeping up with beerus because the power was still merging with him so he was still tapped into it with no training after this it left and he was probably about as strong as his ssj3 form prior in base, goku then goes with whis meets vegeta who has caught up and slightly surpassed him and they proceed to train with whis till rof in witch I think they where buutenks lvl and they just learned how to tap or retap into god ki and fuse it with ssj so instead of using ssj to beat frieza who they knew was holding back ( altho not knowing how much ) they decide to test the new power they just figured out how to do along side the fact they promise not to hold back, to be honest I am sure if frieza full power wasnt to much stronger than his 4th form he probably would have ended up reverting back and going normal ssj ( if needed as base goku was pretty well over 4th form frieza ) but frieza wes golden so no need to revert. Now in the u6 vs u7 arc I say they are between buuhan and ssj vegito lvl and u6 is just kinda really powerful cause plot and frost was kinda a war hardened version of frieza so of course he be stronger than frieza even in rof ( minus golden as frost never tried to get that strong ) as frost worked on mastering his stamina and wasnt lazy like frieza , mageta is a metal man no explanation needed, botamo wasn't strong just a tank, and cabba was a saiyan and we know already what they can do and there potential so I never questioned it. goku black arc they are probably on par if not stronger than ssj vegito and trunks just got strong from zenkia hell so he can compete ( plus bs ass pull power ups for no damn reason besides fuck you thats why lol ) by the end of the goku black arc goku was probably around ssj2.5 ( from rage bost slight training and zenkia's no matter how small ) vegito lvl and vegeta was probably ssj3 vegito lvls. I have no idea how strong they will be in the universe survival arc but i'd guess they be only slightly srtonger than ssj3 vegito and they would be even again as they both dont seem to be able to train against any body who would give them a good training session. Over all I say my statement gives a pretty good scaling to ever character and staying consistent with feats shown.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm starting to say I wanted to believe the Retcon Theory and, by extension, the Two-Base Theory ... but after rewatching Dragon Ball Super Episode 53 from 16 minutes 25 second until the end of the episode ... I can't ignore the fact that SS2 Goku beat Zamasu, and it's implied Zamasu is crazy strong ... Gowasu was surprised Goku fought Beerus and lived.

Well, in one occasion Goku says Zamasu and Beerus are alike, as if they were equally powerful, and Beerus takes offense of that. Then, Goku delivers the point that one day Zamasu might become as strong as Beerus is and Whis seems definitely sure he will become Black. So, even if Zamasu and SS2 Goku are crazy strong they doesn't compare to Beerus yet. Gowasu probably wondered how Goku managed to survive a fight against a God of Destruction and that was beyond he could realize by himself.

[LowRyder2005]

I have Tagoma around the ultimate forms of Cell as well, with something like this as a mental diagram:

Beyond God Goku/ Vegeta >= Fourth Form Freeza > Super Saiyan Gotenks > Mr. Buu >= First Form Freeza > Super Saiyan Gohan (ROF) >= Super Saiyan Gohan (Buu Saga) > Ginyu-Tagoma > Chou-ish Gohan (his current peak, with what's left of his Chou power) = Tagoma > Base Gohan (trying to channel his full power) > Piccolo > Base Gohan

Kind of like supersaiyangodgogeta's numbers. I think it works just as well. Still, Tagoma's, Gohan's and First Form Freeza's power is pretty much up in the air. I do think that had the production given more leeway to TOEI's writers it would've ended up in Gotenks jobbing to First Form Freeza as well.