Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Base Gohan isn't stronger than Piccolo.

He'd have to be. He said Tagoma had power comparable to his own and that wasn't including him as Super Saiyan and Tagoma beat the tar out of Piccolo so Gohan would too.

They were shown to fight on par in the Universe 6 saga.

Also in the movie Frieza said Gohan could instantly wipe the whole army out in an instant if he wanted to as opposed to Piccolo and that was including Super Saiyan.

I can't ignore the fact that SS2 Goku beat Zamasu, and it's implied Zamasu is crazy strong

Well Zamasu is an odd one to figure out. He was beaten by SSJ2 Goku but then later on he said he didn't do as well as he could have because he was distracted which he clearly was.

Then there's Future Zamasu who I can't see being significantly stronger than the present Zamasu if at all and he was able to keep up with SSJB Goku. Though again I did check and I'm sure across all his fights with Goku and Trunks he only got in like one or two hits in on his own.

I don't know if people are underestimating Present Zamasu and overestimating Future Zamasu. To me there's no difference in power worth noting.

In the manga he's clearly nowhere near as strong as SSJB Goku. In fact Goku quickly powered down to just Super Saiyan. That could imply that Zamasu was in between Base and Super Saiyan Goku which would make sense.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gohan's statement was referring to his potential that he could draw out at the time, which was only a portion of it. He flat out stated that he couldn't draw out his full potential.

He starts releasing it against Shisami to break his hold, but Tagoma blasts him through the chest before he can do it. The number comparison I posted holds.

[MagmonKai]

Why does everyone think Whis is suddenly going to train "everyone". He's not going to do that. Only the strongest people in the universe get to train with him. It took a lot for him to train Vegeta and Goku. I can't seem him doing it. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think training with him offers any sort of advantage.

[julianix]

Same exact power or slightly weaker. There is zero evidence they have improved.

[Israelite Wolfman]

I personally think they should have brought back Android 16 (to claim he was revived like Android 8 was and went on the forests to protect the wildlife there, thus staying in touch with 17 who is a park ranger) instead of these two as they were stated to be weaker than he was; and there was no indication they got improved over the years when all that was needed for Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Piccolo and Gohan to surpass them was a day in the Room of Spirit and Time almost 2 decades ago in-universe perspective. RoF is the most idiotic saga in Super (and maybe in the entire Dragon Ball franchise) so far in terms of power scaling - as it took Tagoma/Shisami, a Zarbon-tier guy, to reach power level of Super Perfect Cell or maybe even higher by just being punched to near-death on a daily basis, and a slightly weaker First Form Frieza to reach a power level higher than Majin Buu by doing so in just 4 months. Not to mention their cheap trick of trying to PR the battle with 1000 Frieza second class soldiers as an "extreme situation" by not casting Yamcha & Chiaotzu (Tien: "I didn't brought them, it seemed too dangerous"... Toriyama-bruh, even Roshi & Jaco did fun with those goons).

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'm starting to say I wanted to believe the Retcon Theory and, by extension, the Two-Base Theory ... but after rewatching Dragon Ball Super Episode 53 from 16 minutes 25 second until the end of the episode ... I can't ignore the fact that SS2 Goku beat Zamasu, and it's implied Zamasu is crazy strong ... Gowasu was surprised Goku fought Beerus and lived.

Well, in one occasion Goku says Zamasu and Beerus are alike, as if they were equally powerful, and Beerus takes offense of that. Then, Goku delivers the point that one day Zamasu might become as strong as Beerus is and Whis seems definitely sure he will become Black. So, even if Zamasu and SS2 Goku are crazy strong they doesn't compare to Beerus yet. Gowasu probably wondered how Goku managed to survive a fight against a God of Destruction and that was beyond he could realize by himself.

That means that they're closer to SSGod Goku level. I put them both approximately 2*SSGod Goku because his Super Saiyan form that absorbed the power was equal to SSGod

During Dragon Ball Super Episode 49 from 17 minutes 30 seconds to 20 minutes 20 seconds, SS3 Goku catches Trunks' attack. Beerus also is quoted saying, "That kid's pretty good."

Beerus probably wouldn't say that about a regular SS2. He wasn't impressed by it at all, unless it was 2*SSGod Goku. ... I just can't see him saying that.

Well, hmmmmm, in Dragon Ball Super Episode 5 from 11 minutes to 11 minutes 15 seconds, Beerus calls Goku as a Super Saiyan "pretty good."

If Beerus was impressed in SSGod Goku, saying some "kid's pretty good" would mean they had to have been relatively impressive to that.

[HeroR]

Even I believe Goku to be comfortably stronger than he was in the Buu saga, with godly powers or without.

Zamasu isn't that tough, he's most likely weaker than South Kaioshin if the Two Base/Retcon theories are to be believed.[/quote]

If he was weaker than South Supreme Kai, Zamasu wouldn't be called special. East Supreme Kai is considered a weakling by his own admission and it doesn't make any sense for Zamasu to. E within his power range or Goku to be impressed or shocked by Zamasu.

[HeroR]

That means that they're closer to SSGod Goku level. I put them both approximately 2*SSGod Goku because his Super Saiyan form that absorbed the power was equal to SSGod

During Dragon Ball Super Episode 49 from 17 minutes 30 seconds to 20 minutes 20 seconds, SS3 Goku catches Trunks' attack. Beerus also is quoted saying, "That kid's pretty good."

Beerus probably wouldn't say that about a regular SS2. He wasn't impressed by it at all, unless it was 2*SSGod Goku. ... I just can't see him saying that.

Well, hmmmmm, in Dragon Ball Super Episode 5 from 11 minutes to 11 minutes 15 seconds, Beerus calls Goku as a Super Saiyan "pretty good."

If Beerus was impressed in SSGod Goku, saying some "kid's pretty good" would mean they had to have been relatively impressive to that.

Using Beerus' pretty good statement with Trunks won't tell you anything about his power since Beerus was impressed by Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Episode 5.

And again, Black wouldn't have been impressed by Super Saiyan 2 Goku if he was only as strong as Trunks at his best.

[ChiefWamsutta]

That means that they're closer to SSGod Goku level. I put them both approximately 2*SSGod Goku because his Super Saiyan form that absorbed the power was equal to SSGod

During Dragon Ball Super Episode 49 from 17 minutes 30 seconds to 20 minutes 20 seconds, SS3 Goku catches Trunks' attack. Beerus also is quoted saying, "That kid's pretty good."

Beerus probably wouldn't say that about a regular SS2. He wasn't impressed by it at all, unless it was 2*SSGod Goku. ... I just can't see him saying that.

Well, hmmmmm, in Dragon Ball Super Episode 5 from 11 minutes to 11 minutes 15 seconds, Beerus calls Goku as a Super Saiyan "pretty good."

If Beerus was impressed in SSGod Goku, saying some "kid's pretty good" would mean they had to have been relatively impressive to that.

Using Beerus' pretty good statement with Trunks won't tell you anything about his power since Beerus was impressed by Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Episode 5.

And again, Black wouldn't have been impressed by Super Saiyan 2 Goku if he was only as strong as Trunks at his best.

Solid point, yeah. Beerus was impressed by Super Saiyan 3 Goku. What confuses me is, during Black vs. SS2 Goku, Trunks asking why didn't Goku use the power he used against Trunks (meaning SS3).

I wanna hear your thoughts on this:

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
3) Black (During time in the Past)
4) SS2 Beyond God Goku
5) Present Zamasu
6) SSGod Goku
7) SS3 Goku
8 ) SS2 Goku
9) SS2 Future Trunks

[HeroR]

Solid point, yeah. Beerus was impressed by Super Saiyan 3 Goku. What confuses me is, during Black vs. SS2 Goku, Trunks asking why didn't Goku use the power he used against Trunks (meaning SS3).

I wanna hear your thoughts on this:

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
3) Black (During time in the Past)
4) SS2 Beyond God Goku
6) SSGod Goku
7) SS3 Goku
8 ) SS2 Goku
9) SS2 Future Trunks

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) SS3 Goku
5) Black (During time in the Past)
6) SS2 Goku (close to full power)
7) Present Zamasu
SS2 Goku (suppressed)
9) SS2 Future Trunks

[ChiefWamsutta]

Solid point, yeah. Beerus was impressed by Super Saiyan 3 Goku. What confuses me is, during Black vs. SS2 Goku, Trunks asking why didn't Goku use the power he used against Trunks (meaning SS3).

I wanna hear your thoughts on this:

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
3) Black (During time in the Past)
4) SS2 Beyond God Goku
5) Present Zamasu
6) SSGod Goku
7) SS3 Goku
8 ) SS2 Goku
9) SS2 Future Trunks

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) Black (During time in the Past)
5) SS2 Goku
6) Present Zamasu
7) SS3 Goku
8 ) SS2 Goku (suppressed)
9) SS2 Future Trunks

Where would you put SSGod? Also, wouldn't the SS3 Goku in Slot #7 be suppressed as well?

[HeroR]

Solid point, yeah. Beerus was impressed by Super Saiyan 3 Goku. What confuses me is, during Black vs. SS2 Goku, Trunks asking why didn't Goku use the power he used against Trunks (meaning SS3).

I wanna hear your thoughts on this:

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
3) Black (During time in the Past)
4) SS2 Beyond God Goku
5) Present Zamasu
6) SSGod Goku
7) SS3 Goku
8 ) SS2 Goku
9) SS2 Future Trunks

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) Black (During time in the Past)
5) SS2 Goku
6) Present Zamasu
7) SS3 Goku
SS2 Goku (suppressed)
9) SS2 Future Trunks

Where would you put SSGod? Also, wouldn't the SS3 Goku in Slot #7 be suppressed as well?

Messed up my chart the first time. I meant:

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) SS3 Goku
5) Black (During time in the Past)
6) SS2 Goku (close to full power)
7) Present Zamasu
SS2 Goku (suppressed)
9) SS2 Future Trunks

And I didn't count Super Saiyan God because Goku doesn't used that form in the anime.

[ChiefWamsutta]

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) Black (During time in the Past)
5) SS2 Goku
6) Present Zamasu
7) SS3 Goku
SS2 Goku (suppressed)
9) SS2 Future Trunks

Where would you put SSGod? Also, wouldn't the SS3 Goku in Slot #7 be suppressed as well?

Messed up my chart the first time. I meant:

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) SS3 Goku
5) Black (During time in the Past)
6) SS2 Goku (close to full power)
7) Present Zamasu
SS2 Goku (suppressed)
9) SS2 Future Trunks

And I didn't count Super Saiyan God because Goku doesn't used that form in the anime.

What about SSGod Goku Battle of Gods saga, in that case?

[Hugo Boss]

I'm starting to say I wanted to believe the Retcon Theory and, by extension, the Two-Base Theory ... but after rewatching Dragon Ball Super Episode 53 from 16 minutes 25 second until the end of the episode ... I can't ignore the fact that SS2 Goku beat Zamasu, and it's implied Zamasu is crazy strong ... Gowasu was surprised Goku fought Beerus and lived.

Well, in one occasion Goku says Zamasu and Beerus are alike, as if they were equally powerful, and Beerus takes offense of that. Then, Goku delivers the point that one day Zamasu might become as strong as Beerus is and Whis seems definitely sure he will become Black. So, even if Zamasu and SS2 Goku are crazy strong they doesn't compare to Beerus yet. Gowasu probably wondered how Goku managed to survive a fight against a God of Destruction and that was beyond he could realize by himself.

That means that they're closer to SSGod Goku level. I put them both approximately 2*SSGod Goku because his Super Saiyan form that absorbed the power was equal to SSGod

During Dragon Ball Super Episode 49 from 17 minutes 30 seconds to 20 minutes 20 seconds, SS3 Goku catches Trunks' attack. Beerus also is quoted saying, "That kid's pretty good."

Beerus probably wouldn't say that about a regular SS2. He wasn't impressed by it at all, unless it was 2*SSGod Goku. ... I just can't see him saying that.

Well, hmmmmm, in Dragon Ball Super Episode 5 from 11 minutes to 11 minutes 15 seconds, Beerus calls Goku as a Super Saiyan "pretty good."

If Beerus was impressed in SSGod Goku, saying some "kid's pretty good" would mean they had to have been relatively impressive to that.

It depends on your perspective. In a nutshell, they say Zamasu is stronger than a Kaioshin and weaker than Beerus. Super Saiyan God is in that realm, then maybe they are comparable.

In another hand, Beerus' remark is quite vague. He might think someone other than Vegeta pushing Goku that way seems odd, so it's justified.

[HeroR]

What about SSGod Goku Battle of Gods saga, in that case?

If Goku's base/Super Saiyan form are Super Saiyan God since he absorbed godhood, then that means they are equal to whatever Super Saiyan God is at this level.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So ... is this what you'd say? I'm not sure if I understand.

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) SS3 Goku
5) Black (During time in the Past)
6) SS2 Goku
7) Present Zamasu
8 ) SS2 Goku (suppressed)
9) SS2 Future Trunks
10) SSGod Goku (Battle of Gods, only appearance)

[kinisking]

I’m not quite sure if Bulma is capable of upgrading the Androids, she spent days fixing #16 with the help of her father, and 16 was never said or implied to have been upgraded. But maybe Bulma has improved over the years.

I think training with Whis would be a better option for them to get stronger, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Beerus would only care about Goku and Vegeta’s training (like he was in the previous tournament) and would just let them do and pick whatever and whoever they want, and not train them. Though, with the consequence of losing the tournament, I wouldn’t surprised if Whis will train everyone either, assuming they’ll know about the consequence of losing the tournament right from the start.

Also, when did she say her power level was higher than theirs? And who was she talking to?

In episode 20 of Super, and in the movie version of Resurrection F. She said it when she was talking to Kuririn.

Minute: 19
Android No.18: “I'll come, too. My battle power is much higher than you guys.”
Significance: This line was also in RF. First off, apparently one sub mistranslates this as ""I have as much power as you guys do". Glossing over Kuririn’s fairly ridiculous reasons for not wanting 18 to come fight (“Protect our kid! And make dinner!”), what I mainly want to focus on here is that she uses the term “battle power” (戦闘力/sentou-ryoku, aka “power level” etc). In the original manga and anime, this was lingo only used by Freeza’s army. There were a few exceptions, but the only Z Warrior to ever routinely use the phrase was Vegeta, as a holdover from his time as one of Freeza’s scouter-wearing goons (similar to how he always insists on referring to Goku as “Kakarot”).

Huh, I don't remember that line at all. I wonder why people didn't make a bigger deal about that considering it's completely untrue.

[HeroR]

So ... is this what you'd say? I'm not sure if I understand.

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) SS3 Goku
5) Black (During time in the Past)
6) SS2 Goku
7) Present Zamasu
8 ) SS2 Goku (suppressed)
9) SS2 Future Trunks
10) SSGod Goku (Battle of Gods, only appearance)

I doubt that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is as strong as Super Saiyan God in any form before he got his Rage form. But that is my personal opinion.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So ... is this what you'd say? I'm not sure if I understand.

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) SS3 Goku
5) Black (During time in the Past)
6) SS2 Goku
7) Present Zamasu
8 ) SS2 Goku (suppressed)
9) SS2 Future Trunks
10) SSGod Goku (Battle of Gods, only appearance)

I doubt that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is as strong as Super Saiyan God in any form before he got his Rage form. But that is my personal opinion.

I guess this method makes the most sense.

1) Beerus
2) SSRose Black (First time he transformed)
3) SSB Goku (When he enters the future for the first time)
4) SS3 Goku
5) Black (During time in the Past)
6) SS2 Goku
7) Present Zamasu
8 )SSGod Goku (Battle of Gods, only appearance)
9) SS2 Goku (suppressed)
10) SS2 Future Trunks

[Bullza]

SSJ2 Trunks is stronger than Zamasu. Both fought against SSJ2 Goku and it was Trunks who performed better and that was still while he was holding back his full power.

Plus when SSJ2 Trunks fought Zamasu he got the upper hand against him and would have killed him if not for his invincibility.