Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

I revised my Cell Arc numbers and some few ones from the Buu Arc. The BPs not included are the same as they were on page 54.

Multipliers

• SSJ/FP SSJ - 50x base.
• Grade 2 - 3x SSJ.
• Grade 3 - 5x SSJG2.

The Cell Arc

Trunks the Story –A Lone Warrior–

Trunks: 3,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 3,000,001.

Son Gohan: 4,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 200,000,000.

#17: 350,000,000.
-less than ½: 170,000,000.
#18: 315,000,000.

3 years later...

Super Saiyan Trunks: 220,000,000.

The Boy from the Future

Mecha Freeza: 160,000,000.
-holding back because he's stupid: 75,000,000.
King Cold: 90,000,000.

Trunks: 5.
-Full Power: 4,400,000.
-Super Saiyan: 220,000,000.

Son Goku: 5,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 250,000,000.

Goku, Defeated!

Android No.20: 160,000,000.
Android No.19: 90,000,000.

Piccolo: 220,000,000.

Super Saiyan Trunks: 250,000,000.
Super Saiyan Son Goku: 290,000,000.
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 300,000,000.

Android No.18: 450,000,000.
Android No.17: 500,000,000.

Cell's Perfect Form, Achieved!!

Piccolo(merged with God): 500,000,000.
-weighted: 440,000,000.

Android No.16: 750,000,000.

Vegeta: 22,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 1,100,000,000.
--Second Grade: 3,300,000,000.

Trunks: 20,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 1,000,000,000.
--Second Grade: 3,000,000,000.
---Third Grade: 15,000,000,000.

Cell: 390,000,000.
-after absorbing hundreds of thousands of people: 750,000,000.
-Second Form: 1,250,000,000.
--Full Power: 2,000,000,000.
-Perfect Form(warm-up): 2,450,000,000.
--Serious...or not: 13,000,000,000.

The Cell Games Begin

Trunks: 340,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 17,000,000,000.

Peace for the Future...

#17: 350,000,000.
#18: 315,000,000.

Trunks: 340,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 17,000,000,000.

Over 3 years later...

Cell: 390,000,000.

Trunks: 390,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 19,500,000,000.

The Majin Buu Arc

The Birth of A New Hero!!

Son Goten: 350,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 17,500,000,000.
Trunks: 400,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 20,000,000,000.

The Plan is Set in Motion

#18: 450,000,000.

Son Goten: 418,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 20,900,000,000.
Trunks: 440,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 22,000,000,000.

Gotenks: 10,000,000,000.
-Confident: 200,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 500,000,000,000.

[Rocketman]

I'm vaguely disappointed my Android numbers haven't caught on.

[p123]

Very good list DBGTFO.

My numbers are generally in the same area as yours. Surprising to see a Daizex guy use a 3x USSJ boost, and a 5x USSJ2 boost . Good stuff. Although, your not only just a Daizex guy now are you. ( Wink,wink)

What logic did you expect to catch on Rocketman?

[Rocketman]

What logic did you expect to catch on Rocketman?

Androids don't have ki. Their BPs would be 0, >5, >5, 0, and nearly 0 (in order from 16-20).

[hleV]

#16 did compare Piccolo and #17's and later himself and Cell's powers, so I guess there is a formula to convert android's strength into battle power or vice versa.

[Kaboom]

I think it's pretty much a given that whenever someone lists a high battle power for an Android character... it's meant to be taken as an "equivalent" level.

[Vice]

I still can't come up with a power level list I'm happy with. I had one a while back, but I don't know what happened to it. I think one of the problems I'm having is that Gohan got weaker in the Buu Saga, which, for some reason, is messing me up.

At any rate, we know Gohan was stronger than Goku at the Cell Games, but I always list him as just a fraction stronger. My question is, how much stronger is too much? Twice as strong?

[Onikage725]

Nothing implies that the boost got smaller and Toriyama himself said the boost is 50x.

Just to note, Toriyama also moved away from power levels. He also said (through Vegeta) that you can't calculate a Saiyan's power.

I'm not claiming a stance either way. Just saying that, via supporting evidence given by the author, there is room for interpretation.

[Vice]

And I'm fairly certain that he himself felt the boost should have been 10x while he was drawing it.

[Onikage725]

Oh, I won't even go into how ridiculous 50x looks on paper. That's one of the main reasons I stopped bothering with the notion when the author did. The ratios seem outrageous, and it makes it utterly implausible that any character that WASN'T a Super Saiyan (including Piccolo and pre-transformation Saiyans) could survive the air-pressure caused by a villains sneeze. Piccolo actually manages to drop kick Freeza a good distance, and this was Freeza at 50% of what we should buy as 120mil? That's worse than assuming Chaozu could have surprise drop-kicked Vegeta in the previous saga and actually gotten results. Which, I'll admit, would have been hilarious.

[Kaboom]

The gigantic boost is the whole point. Super Saiyan is a "legendary" transformation, which grants an unheard-of amount of power. It wouldn't really be anything special if it was just a replacement for the other transformation that EVERY Saiyan can do, or could easily be matched or out-stripped by the Kaio-Ken, would it?

[Vice]

The gigantic boost is the whole point. Super Saiyan is a "legendary" transformation, which grants an unheard-of amount of power. It wouldn't really be anything special if it was just a replacement for the other transformation that EVERY Saiyan can do

Well, the Super Saiyan form itself has a few advantages over the great ape form by itself. For one thing, while the great ape form is a transformation reserved for every Saiyan, not every Saiyan can control it to the degree that only Vegeta has shown he can. At least with the Super Saiyan form, the user doesn't completely lose their minds and free will. Also, the Super Saiyan form comes with multiple levels, unlike the great ape form.

The Super Saiyan form itself became irrelevant the moment Super Saiyan 2 was introduced.

or could easily be matched or out-stripped by the Kaio-Ken, would it?

Potentially, the Kaio-Ken is limitless as Goku took it from a 2-3x boost to a 20x boost simply by training harder. Also, there's nothing that suggests both the Kaio-Ken and Super Saiyan form could be used simultaneously anyway, otherwise Super Saiyan 2 and 3 would be virtually useless as well.

[Onikage725]

The gigantic boost is the whole point. Super Saiyan is a "legendary" transformation, which grants an unheard-of amount of power. It wouldn't really be anything special if it was just a replacement for the other transformation that EVERY Saiyan can do, or could easily be matched or out-stripped by the Kaio-Ken, would it?

That isn't the point that I was making...

I'm not arguing which modifiers whould be which or go where. Unless I'm playing an RPG, I actually don't see the point. I'm just saying that the story, as it was presented, and as these character's strengths were presented, seems (to me) to contradict with the supposed level of power gained. Piccolo is the most glaring offender, though Tenshinhan applies as well. We can talk about how badass the Kikoho is until the cows come home, but there is no way he should be able to withhold perfect Cell, in a plane above Super Saiyans, who are 50x beyond anywhere Ten should be. "Shin" or no. And, c'mon, if Piccolo was 1 mil or so...and wounded (thus, weaker), and we accept Freeza at 60 mil (via deduction from source books, NOT stated in the manga or anime)... he should not have been able to budge him. He should have bounced off. It should have looked like Kuririn's attack on Perfect Cell, or #16's attacks on 2nd Stage Cell. Even Vegeta could barely tilt Perfect Cell's head, attacking with the full might of a 2nd grade Super Saiyan, while Cell purposely left his guard down.

[Rocketman]

The gigantic boost is the whole point. Super Saiyan is a "legendary" transformation, which grants an unheard-of amount of power. It wouldn't really be anything special if it was just a replacement for the other transformation that EVERY Saiyan can do,

The Kaioken is a godly technique that only one guy in the history of the universe has ever used, so it's even more specialer than Super Saiyan.

Super Saiyan being a streamlined Oozaru...well, isn't that what SS4 is usually claimed as?

[Onikage725]

Haha thank you Rocketman. I forgot to mention that. Super Saiyan is a legendary thing, but so is EVERY increase anyone gets. Training with ancient masters, magical water, learning the secrets of a god, Namekian fusion, gravity training. These are all extreme things. And technically, anything god-related or magical is more "special" in concept than Super Saiyan...which is simply a difficult to trigger biological defense mechanism.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Personally, I don't see what's wrong with Piccolo's surprise kick on Freeza. The whole reason he was able to do that was because he caught him off-guard.

I think it's safe to say that there's probably a much bigger difference between Kuririn and perfect Cell than Piccolo and 50% Freeza. Of course, that's just speculation, but I don't really see the problem here, even if you apply opinionated battle powers to it.

And when #16 attacked second-form Cell, he wasn't off-guard. Potentially, if he was, then maybe Cell would've been knocked away.

But I think the Shin Kikoho basically shows how Toriyama obviously wasn't thinking about the levels of characters' strengths in terms of battle power. Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho, no matter how implausible it may seem to us obsessive DB fans who care more about the series than the author himself, was just a plot device intended to stall Cell while #16 and #18 made a run for it.

I think, if people didn't obsess so much over how X person was able to become X strong in X amount of time in terms of battle power, and just looked at it from the story's perspective without thinking about numbers and stuff like that, then there wouldn't be so many debates trying to work logic into things like this.

[Senzu_Bean]

Just to note, Toriyama also moved away from power levels. He also said (through Vegeta) that you can't calculate a Saiyan's power.

Then you also have the guide books claiming Goku & co. increased their battle powers through ways they could no longer be measured numerically. I really can't see how numerical forms were still relevant after the last scouter was shown on the story. Like Onikage725 said you have Tenshinhan not being a match to someone only Super Saiyans can handle to using an attack that can probably kill someone that could kill a Super Saiyan.

[Fox666]

There isn't any fundament in claiming that the Shin Kikoho could kill a Super Saiyan. Especially considering as far as the story goes, for some reason he didn't used it against no.19 and the other androids.

I think, if people didn't obsess so much over how X person was able to become X strong in X amount of time in terms of battle power, and just looked at it from the story's perspective without thinking about numbers and stuff like that, then there wouldn't be so many debates trying to work logic into things like this.

Toriyama wasn't that consistent when battle powers were still used in the series. And as far the manga goes, the greatest numeral used was 1,000,000 which probably marks the maximum Toriyama's brain can keep up with the inflation of numbers.

[p123]

Generally if you follow the rule that the heroes in the following arc always surpass the villians in the previous arc, you have a good basis. That's pretty much as big of a clue as we can get into Toriyama's thinking. His math skills are absolutely horrid...

[Piccolo Daimao]

There isn't any fundament in claiming that the Shin Kikoho could kill a Super Saiyan. Especially considering as far as the story goes, for some reason he didn't used it against no.19 and the other androids.

Well, there actually is fundament in claiming that the Shin Kikoho could kill a Super Saiyan, considering that it was able to push back a guy who was much stronger than a guy who was much stronger than a Super Saiyan. And there are a number of reasons you could make as to why Tenshinhan didn't use it against the Androids: takes too much time to charge (he got caught in a chokehold by #17 after throwing one punch), had only devised it recently, etc.

I think, if people didn't obsess so much over how X person was able to become X strong in X amount of time in terms of battle power, and just looked at it from the story's perspective without thinking about numbers and stuff like that, then there wouldn't be so many debates trying to work logic into things like this.

Toriyama wasn't that consistent when battle powers were still used in the series. And as far the manga goes, the greatest numeral used was 1,000,000 which probably marks the maximum Toriyama's brain can keep up with the inflation of numbers.

I think Toriyama was relatively consistent. He clearly set out which characters were stronger than other characters at a progressive rate. The common argument people make is that the numbers "got too high", when that's more of an opinion than a fault of Toriyama's. It still made sense within the story.