Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

I still don't see why it's so terrible that Superman wins.

Could it be that the people arguing this aren't actually fans of the series, but of the strength? They've sunk so much time and effort into their power level lists they HAVE to defend Goku's prowess?

I mean, if Goku's not the strongest ever...then why powerleveltize?

I think his loss to Superman glorifies Goku. His loss just shows his character and the point of DBZ altogether. There will always be someone stronger and it's Goku's job to get stronger so that one day he might best him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I did a quick read of your blog, Kakarot88, and it seems that you are actually correct, in most of thing. I didn't read everything because FireFox was crushing because of the huge quantity of images (!!!), but I think I understood your point. There are three things were you are wrong though (keep in mind that I didn't read anything, so I may have misunderstood you):

Super Yi Xing Long's power
It's true that it was stated that he could destroy the universe. But it was never stated that he could do it with his ki. The universe was going to be destroyed from his minus power, which would pollute Earth, then the minus energy would destroy the Earth, and the pollution would transfer to the neighboring planets. And then repeat, until the whole universe would be destroyed.
So, there is no indication that he, or anyone, could destroy the universe in one shot.

#16's bomb
You say that there is no proof that #16's bomb could kill Goku, because Dr. Gero didn't know about Super Saiyan & all that. I disagree. #16 was confident that his bomb would be able to destroy Perfect Cell (keep in mind that he could measure Cell's power), and while Cell believed otherwise, it doesn't matter if the bomb could kill Cell, because #16 believed that the bomb made for Goku had a chance to kill Cell, who was many, many times stronger than Goku.

Goku blowing up a reality
I don't think it should be taken into account, because the reality was probably very small, so I doubt Goku would be able to destroy a reality as big as the Earth's.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku didn't even destroy the reality. He just opened a hole in it.

[Kakarot88]

I did a quick read of your blog, Kakarot88, and it seems that you are actually correct, in most of thing. I didn't read everything because FireFox was crushing because of the huge quantity of images (!!!), but I think I understood your point. There are three things were you are wrong though (keep in mind that I didn't read anything, so I may have misunderstood you):

Super Yi Xing Long's power
It's true that it was stated that he could destroy the universe. But it was never stated that he could do it with his ki. The universe was going to be destroyed from his minus power, which would pollute Earth, then the minus energy would destroy the Earth, and the pollution would transfer to the neighboring planets. And then repeat, until the whole universe would be destroyed.
So, there is no indication that he, or anyone, could destroy the universe in one shot.

#16's bomb
You say that there is no proof that #16's bomb could kill Goku, because Dr. Gero didn't know about Super Saiyan & all that. I disagree. #16 was confident that his bomb would be able to destroy Perfect Cell (keep in mind that he could measure Cell's power), and while Cell believed otherwise, it doesn't matter if the bomb could kill Cell, because #16 believed that the bomb made for Goku had a chance to kill Cell, who was many, many times stronger than Goku.

Goku blowing up a reality
I don't think it should be taken into account, because the reality was probably very small, so I doubt Goku would be able to destroy a reality as big as the Earth's.

I am new to this so sorry if I reply poorly.


I disregard the omega stuff for the final conclusion and base it only off the low end taking of a x10 kamehameha


#16's bomb could have worked but the number is from anime filler and they made up context. Better durability is tanking SS2 punches from majin vegeta which are more powerful than SS2 gohans punches which shatter cell juniors. Cell juniors have the durability of planet tanking Frieza! They have his blood. All easily quantifiable and solely from the manga. But that also means Supermans small planet shattering punches which are his peak without momentum wouldn't do anything significant especially against a SS3.


Blasting reality
Yeah it's GT I only reference it for comparison. The conclusipn is based on really only manga anime filler and wrath of dragon Goku and show how GT is just too over powered to matter.


However Ben based the whole rationale on "character core" and he got Goku and superman wrong. My blog breaks down why that is wrong too in the "platitude section"

[TheMightyOzaru]

Even though I more or less agree with the result, I do think the whole idea that Superman is as strong as he needs to be is just plot based. Something like that should never be considered in the analysis. That's like me taking Sonic's fate bending hax in the Archie comics and utilizing it for the result of a battle. It's just plain BS. Superman is the definition of inconsistent and he is as strong as he needs to be because consistency means jack in Superman. I think feats and official statements decide the battle, not fate bending PIS.

[Kakarot88]

Even though I more or less agree with the result, I do think the whole idea that Superman is as strong as he needs to be is just plot based. Something like that should never be considered in the analysis. That's like me taking Sonic's fate bending hax in the Archie comics and utilizing it for the result of a battle. It's just plain BS. Superman is the definition of inconsistent and he is as strong as he needs to be because consistency means jack in Superman. I think feats and official statements decide the battle, not fate bending PIS.

If only that were true...
Ben did not do the conclusion off of HIS ERRONEOUS NUMBERS but off of "the core of their character" admitting on facebook the numbers were arbitrary: http://i.imgur.com/c416EXF.png “as expressed in the most important part of our recap (after the arbitrary yet expected measurements)."

And based his whole reasoning on plot induced stupidity: “Whenever Goku did these kinds of things it was really really hard on him and like that was clearly his limit at the time that was kind of the deciding factor “ ~Ben "Wiz" Singer (Creator of Death Battle) 56:53 http://youtu.be/ns6POKq2XzY?t=56m53s

He even says at the end of the Death Battle video (paraphrasing) "now we can throw around all sorts of feats and equations but when it comes down to it the difference is at the core of their characters...Goku has never been limitless...superman under the power of the yellow sun is essentially limitless...so what happens when you compare a man who can BREAK ANY LIMIT to one who does not have limits to begin with..." Check the Facebook post above and interview and death battle ending the core the character is the reasoning...and it has an implicit contradiction.


We never got a real answer.

Only a misappreciation of both characters.

See the reasoning is inherently flawed because it is not true and actually contradicts itself : for instance: If superman has reached his full potential (which is essentially limitless) and Goku’s potential is limitless then Goku can go further beyond…more at: http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-b ... s-superman


And if one looks through my blog at actual calcs you'll see how diff the fight is.

But Ben essentially threw any type of legitimate calculations out the window because he did not know enough about Goku and only learned about him for this fight rather than having a working knowledge of the character where he could see what they could do rather than in his Superman vacuum or heck consulting his “experts” for his final rationale (http://youtu.be/ns6POKq2XzY?t=56m53s)

[VegettoEX]

You do know who those "experts" were, right...?

'Cuz you're complaining about them on their own forum right now.

[Kakarot88]

You do know who those "experts" were, right...?

'Cuz you're complaining about them on their own forum right now.

I'm complaining he did not give you his final rationale otherwise you certainly would have corrected him. The interview video says he did not give you his final reasoning only the voice actors knew it. Or was that untrue?

[TheMightyOzaru]

VegettoEX, so far, is perfectly ok with the calcs. I for one think it's off since in the Herms translation of Super Saiyajin Grade 5 says Cell's Kamehameha can blow away the whole Solar System which would, at minimum, require you destroy the sun which requires 165 Septillion Megatons bare minimum. Screwattacks calcs also depend on linearity in power growth which doesn't add up at all. If you think there is linearity in going from a power level of 5, which can't even produce Ki, to 180, which can destroy the Moon which requires a bare minimum of 30 Trillion megatons, you are out of your mind. Honestly the battle, to me is determined, by the extent of Cell's destruction. If Cell can just destroy the sun, I give the victory to Superman. If Cell can force the sun to go Supernova, I'm not sure who would in. If Cell could literally wipe out the entire solar system, I give this to Goku. It all depends on how powerful you think Cell is. I have Cell at Supernova level so I'm not truly sure who would win. If He were fighting Prime or Pre Crisis, well that's a different story.

[Kakarot88]

VegettoEX, so far, is perfectly ok with the calcs. I for one think it's off since in the Herms translation of Super Saiyajin Grade 5 says Cell's Kamehameha can blow away the whole Solar System which would, at minimum, require you destroy the sun which requires 165 Septillion Megatons bare minimum. Screwattacks calcs also depend on linearity in power growth which doesn't add up at all. If you think there is linearity in going from a power level of 5, which can't even produce Ki, to 180, which can destroy the Moon which requires a bare minimum of 30 Trillion megatons, you are out of your mind. Honestly the battle, to me is determined, by the extent of Cell's destruction. If Cell can just destroy the sun, I give the victory to Superman. If Cell can force the sun to go Supernova, I'm not sure who would in. If Cell could literally wipe out the entire solar system, I give this to Goku. It all depends on how powerful you think Cell is. I have Cell at Supernova level so I'm not truly sure who would win. If He were fighting Prime or Pre Crisis, well that's a different story.

Thanks! Not gonna give away spoilers but new movie could affect your opinion maybe yes maybe no...

BUT keep in mind I do NOT use Cell's Solar Kamehameha as proof of Goku's power for my analysis and final conclusion. Although I did make a blog on why Cell is a solar system Buster when he gathers enough Ki as oppsoed to being able to instantly wipe one out: http://www.screwattack.com/news/cell-so ... m-buster-0


PLUS keep in mind these people sense energy err I mean Ki...SO how could Cell bluff that? Granted Vegeta bluffed Gero as to his reserves but that bluff was not as to what he was capable of outputting which people in the series consistently sense such as "Agh that will wipe out Earth."

[TonyTheTiger]

Point is this: Calculate Goku's numbers however you want. Use whatever logic you want. So long as you calculate Superman's numbers using the same logic as was applied to Goku (ya know, to avoid actual bias), Superman will always come out on top. This is not a particularly close match since Superman's durability is absurd. Goku is basically a glass cannon in comparison and just plain won't survive as long as Supes will. Not to mention Goku's whole "needs to breathe" dilemma as well as his comparative vulnerability to temperature shifts. Once planets start exploding and stars start going supernova Goku is pretty fucked. I've come to the conclusion that anyone still bitching about this Death Battle fits into one or more of three categories:

1) Dragon Ball fans who don't know enough about Superman.
2) Dragon Ball fans who don't know enough about Dragon Ball.
3) Faulty logic in their calculations/comparisons.

It's one thing to have a few misgivings about the numbers here and there. It's fiction, after all. But the assertion that practically everything is wrong (every number, every detail, every calculation) is patently unbelievable. It's just patently unbelievable given A) blatant evidence in the video itself via scans, clips, etc. and B) the participation of experts who live and breathe the material on both sides of the fight. Given how much has gone into this Death Battle and how many people participated (people who are provably experts, mind you), the idea that the final result is so incredibly wrong and one single person has the right answer (due to his supposedly greater knowledge about or better research on both Superman and Dragon Ball) immediately raises a giant red flag that the single person's complaining is the product of not greater knowledge but rather just plain hubris gone mad. Occam's razor, ya know?

[Kakarot88]

Point is this: Calculate Goku's numbers however you want. Use whatever logic you want. So long as you calculate Superman's numbers using the same logic as was applied to Goku (ya know, to avoid actual bias), Superman will always come out on top. This is not a particularly close match since Superman's durability is absurd. Goku is basically a glass cannon in comparison and just plain won't survive as long as Supes will. Not to mention Goku's whole "needs to breathe" dilemma as well as his comparative vulnerability to temperature shifts. Once planets start exploding and stars start going supernova Goku is pretty fucked. I've come to the conclusion that anyone still bitching about this Death Battle fits into one or more of three categories:

1) Dragon Ball fans who don't know enough about Superman.
2) Dragon Ball fans who don't know enough about Dragon Ball.
3) Faulty logic in their calculations/comparisons.

It's one thing to have a few misgivings about the numbers here and there. It's fiction, after all. But the assertion that practically everything is wrong (every number, every detail, every calculation) is patently unbelievable. It's just patently unbelievable given A) blatant evidence in the video itself via scans, clips, etc. and B) the participation of experts who live and breathe the material on both sides of the fight. Given how much has gone into this Death Battle and how many people participated (people who are provably experts, mind you), the idea that the final result is so incredibly wrong and one single person has the right answer (due to his supposedly greater knowledge about or better research on both Superman and Dragon Ball) immediately raises a giant red flag that the single person's complaining is the product of not greater knowledge but rather just plain hubris gone mad. Occam's razor, ya know?

So did you read the blog or any of the above posts where Ben says he did not consult the experts as to his final rationale and threw out the numbers as arbitrary and based his analysis off the core of the characters again without getting final expert approval?

here's the links for easy fact checking:

says did not do the conclusion off of HIS ERRONEOUS NUMBERS but off of "the core of their character" admitting on facebook the numbers were arbitrary: http://i.imgur.com/c416EXF.png “as expressed in the most important part of our recap (after the arbitrary yet expected measurements)."

And based his whole reasoning on plot induced stupidity: “Whenever Goku did these kinds of things it was really really hard on him and like that was clearly his limit at the time that was kind of the deciding factor “ ~Ben "Wiz" Singer (Creator of Death Battle) 56:53 http://youtu.be/ns6POKq2XzY?t=56m53s

And did not consult his experts as to the final rationale and only let the voice actors in on it: (35m37s) http://youtu.be/ns6POKq2XzY?t=35m37s

And the "core character" analysis was not accurate on either I am not gonna spam the blog with the full analysis but you can skim my blog for it but here is but one point on their implicit contradiction: If superman has reached his full potential (which is essentially limitless) and Goku’s potential is limitless then Goku can go further beyond…the whole “core of their character” is stupid anyways because it essentially heightens plot induced stupidity as determinative factors...see above.

Here's the link to the blog for more info http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-b ... s-superman

[Bussani]

I'm complaining he did not give you his final rationale otherwise you certainly would have corrected him.

Most of us were fine with the result, actually.

[valfranx]

As I've said before, death battle was made ​​just for entertainment and not something to be taken seriously, like the comic: west vs. east




Where to create a version of superman or goku that not exist, where a version and weaker than the original and the other and stronger than the original.

why I will not use it to define something about this hypothetical encounter, as many are doing lately, using death battle to try to define debates, as in actually are scattering misinformation:
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles ... er/721916/

the same, misinformation that is using a lot of time on forums, which have been debunked( like goku and the 40 tons). this is my only problem with the death battle.

[Rocketman]

And how exactly did you "debunk" an event blatantly stated in the manga?

[Kaboom]

And how exactly did you "debunk" an event blatantly stated in the manga?

From what I understand, it involves putting your hands over your ears and chanting something.

[Ringworm128]

Why do I get the feeling that people are just going to keep arguing back and forth until this thread gets locked.

[Kakarot88]

And how exactly did you "debunk" an event blatantly stated in the manga?

From what I understand, it involves putting your hands over your ears and chanting something.

He may be referring to: Death Battle’s tons formula which is less than gravity on Goku’s way to Namek. So Goku’s fight speed and strength was again severely low ended. Here’s what I mean about Gravity to Namek and the Training in Hell: 1 ton=2000 pounds = 907.185kg.


Gravitron multiplies the weight by 1,000s not 100s despite the stated unit:

Proof:



Vegeta and Gravitron: Vegeta weighs=60kg at 300x Gravity his weight =180,000kg….(that is more than 300 times his weight) so the gravitron ratio is this 60kg = 180,000kg is actually 3,000 times . So gravitron 300 = 3,000…Oh Toriyama how I do love your reliance on physics…NOT (more on that below).


Gravitron to Namek:

Goku’s weight at least 60kg (he is overall larger than Vegeta). So 100x gravity= 60kg x1000= 60,000kg.

60,000kg = 132,277.36lbs = 66.1 tons

Training in Hell

4 tons= 8000pounds…so Goku’s weight + 4tons = 60kg + 3,628.74kg =3,688.74kg 132.277lbs + 8,000lbs SO 132.277 lbs + 8,000 lbs = 8,132.277lbs.

8,132.277lbs= 4.07 tons

Guess Goku also got weaker…NO…placed in context Goku has been training all day and is doing that flying…that is NOT his peak strength or peak fighting speed.

Furthermore Death Battle High ended Superman’s fighting SPEED

DC heavily relies on physics and actually talks about how Superman’s mass reduces when he goes above light speed hence why his fists are kept under light speed to do maximum damage.







BUT Flash who is controlled by the speed force is not so limited







Instead of taking that into consideration...Death Battle also high ended Superman’s fists to hit beyond physics limits on him...

YES Superman's body does limit him in some regards like requiring momentum and being unable to instantaneously harness his "limitlessness":












SO Death Battle, rather than actually go with DC and how light speed affects Superman again made stuff up for his fight with Goku. Why this matters is because Toriyama kept amping up his characters (physics be damned) and henceforth they are able to generate enhanced force at FTL speed without mass reduction because of their Ki abilities.



..."BUT Superman was holding back!!" ...REALLY!? Is that why he let all those people die?


However, this places Superman at a distinct disadvantage...SO I guess one can assume Superman was not placed within the limits of his own verse and instead was high ended for "fairness" despite giving no deference to Goku's legitimate feats.

[dario03]

He may be referring to: Death Battle’s tons formula which is less than gravity on Goku’s way to Namek. So Goku’s fight speed and strength was again severely low ended. Here’s what I mean about Gravity to Namek and the Training in Hell: 1 ton=2000 pounds = 907.185kg.


Gravitron multiplies the weight by 1,000s not 100s despite the stated unit:

Proof:


Vegeta and Gravitron: Vegeta weighs=60kg at 300x Gravity his weight =180,000kg….(that is more than 300 times his weight) so the gravitron ratio is this 60kg = 180,000kg is actually 3,000 times . So gravitron 300 = 3,000…Oh Toriyama how I do love your reliance on physics…NOT (more on that below).


Gravitron to Namek:

Goku’s weight at least 60kg (he is overall larger than Vegeta). So 100x gravity= 60kg x1000= 60,000kg.

60,000kg = 132,277.36lbs = 66.1 tons

Training in Hell

4 tons= 8000pounds…so Goku’s weight + 4tons = 60kg + 3,628.74kg =3,688.74kg 132.277lbs + 8,000lbs SO 132.277 lbs + 8,000 lbs = 8,132.277lbs.

8,132.277lbs= 4.07 tons

Guess Goku also got weaker…NO…placed in context Goku has been training all day and is doing that flying…that is NOT his peak strength or peak fighting speed.

Furthermore Death Battle High ended Superman’s fighting SPEED

DC heavily relies on physics and actually talks about how Superman’s mass reduces when he goes above light speed hence why his fists are kept under light speed to do maximum damage.




Instead of taking that into consideration...Death Battle also high ended Superman’s fists to hit beyond physics limits on him...

YES Superman's body does limit him in some regards like requiring momentum and being unable to instantaneously harness his "limitlessness":



SO Death Battle, rather than actually go with DC and how light speed affects Superman again made stuff up for his fight with Goku. Why this matters is because Toriyama kept amping up his characters (physics be damned) and henceforth they are able to generate enhanced force at FTL speed without mass reduction because of their Ki abilities.



..."BUT Superman was holding back!!" ...REALLY!? Is that why he let all those people die?


However, this places Superman at a distinct disadvantage...SO I guess one can assume Superman was not placed within the limits of his own verse and instead was high ended for "fairness" despite giving no deference to Goku's legitimate feats.

Couple things about the gravity and weight.
1. Are you sure they mean short tons (2000lbs)? They say 60kg so I would think they actually meant a metric ton (tonne) which is 1000kg (~2200lbs).
2. I would like to see what is said in the original Japanese version since that 180,000kg might of just been a translation or math error. Could also just be a basic typo, like how it has Vegeta saying "Kakarotto one trained under 100g..."
edit: looks like Bussani has a quote showing that it is a error (I'm guessing from the strength checker...which I forgot existed )

And why do you keep saying that Superman's mass reduces when he goes lightspeed? Mass increases when you get close to lightspeed and it even says his mass increases in the scan you posted and outlined.

And I wouldn't say that death battle high ended Superman. Theres feats that could put his speed far beyond what they said. Plus theres been times where DC will say something/someone is sub-lightspeed or that they are doing less than lightspeed but will then show it/them doing something that requires far faster than lightspeed to accomplish. So either light is actually far faster in DC or they aren't really doing the math and paying attention to physics all that much either.

[Bussani]

I would like to see what is said in the original Japanese version since that 180,000kg might of just been a translation or math error.

It is. In the original, he says the person would weigh 18 tons, which is around three hundred times what they would normally weigh if they weighed 60 kilograms.

Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P11.3-5
Brief: “Huh!? You…you say you want me to make you a 300-times gravity room!?”
Vegeta: “That’s right. It seems that Kakarot trained in 100-times gravity…I’m at least 3 times as much as him…”
Brief: “Th…that’s crazy…Ve…Vegeta, if you weigh 60 kilos…then you’ll become eigh…18 tons….”

So in the Cell arc, 18 tons is treated like an unbelievable deal. In the Buu arc, Goku (sans Super Saiyan) would have trouble with 40 tons while using bukujutsu. Seems pretty fair to me.