Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Everyone parrots this idea, I still don't get it. He's not even that different. I guess if the only thing you care about was his smugness and Goku hate, it would be boring, but that's not even pertinent to his character. Quite the opposite, the flamboyant smugness from the anime wasn't introduced until the second trip to the future. Prior to that, there were only a few lines from Goku Black in Episode 56, and even that was just hamming up The SS Rose reveal.
The differences are enough, it's not just about his "smugness" or his "Goku hate", those are two aspects of a list of many that are missing. He doesn't have a calm, collected behavior and freaks out over every little thing. He fights like a brute. In fact, the whole flamboyant beauty aspect of his personality is almost nonexistent; small things like his air movements during his fight with SS2 Goku, his attitude towards SSB Vegeta and his SSR transformation made this a part of his character way before the second trip. In contrast, the manga is already at the mafuba and the ROSAT training, and he's still a brute. He's a much bigger coward (small point, as Black in general is a coward, but he didn't seem scared of Beerus at all in the anime, I guess it ties in with the "freaks out over every little thing" complaint). He doesn't share Goku's personality traits nor does he have his weird respect/obsession for him. Not to mention he seems more like future Zamasu's underling rather than the guy who pulled the strings all along.
Anime!Black wasn't a perfect character by any means, but he was unique. This one is literally a generic movie villain you'd expect Toei to come up with.
TKA wrote:That was a really good chapter. I fucking love how the manga actually explains shit. The time travel explanation, which was always my headcanon for why the Trunks at the start of the Android saga is the same Trunks that comes back after 19 and 20 die, was especially welcome.
In addition, the manga actually made use of Zamasu and Gowasu's relationship, which was basically just salad dressing in the anime. Good stuff all around.
But doesn't this contradict Trunks only spending 8 months in the future rather than the full 3 years? The gap between timelines was originally 20 years, but was reduced to 17 years.
Where did the 8 months thing come from? We just know he went to the future then came back for the Androids. We never got a time
The Trunks story in which Bulma says it'll take another 8 months before they can make another trip. Also, the first time Trunks arrives he's from 20 years in the future, this is later reduced to 17 years showing he didn't actually stay in the future for 3 years.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Everyone parrots this idea, I still don't get it. He's not even that different. I guess if the only thing you care about was his smugness and Goku hate, it would be boring, but that's not even pertinent to his character. Quite the opposite, the flamboyant smugness from the anime wasn't introduced until the second trip to the future. Prior to that, there were only a few lines from Goku Black in Episode 56, and even that was just hamming up The SS Rose reveal.
The differences are enough, it's not just about his "smugness" or his "Goku hate", those are two aspects of a list of many that are missing. He doesn't have a calm, collected behavior and freaks out over every little thing. He fights like a brute. In fact, the whole flamboyant beauty aspect of his personality is almost nonexistent; small things like his air movements during his fight with SS2 Goku, his attitude towards SSB Vegeta and his SSR transformation made this a part of his character way before the second trip. In contrast, the manga is already at the mafuba and the ROSAT training, and he's still a brute. He's a much bigger coward (small point, as Black in general is a coward, but he didn't seem scared of Beerus at all in the anime, I guess it ties in with the "freaks out over every little thing" complaint). He doesn't share Goku's personality traits nor does he have his weird respect/obsession for him. Not to mention he seems more like future Zamasu's underling rather than the guy who pulled the strings all along.
Anime!Black wasn't a perfect character by any means, but he was unique. This one is literally a generic movie villain you'd expect Toei to come up with.
Pretty much the defacto issue with Manga Black, he comes off as a Super Boo with a more interesting backstory rather than a "dignified" being inhabiting the body of a brute who he loathes/respects simultaneously.
Other than that though, I think the manga is on the fast track to having a fairly good final act for this arc if this chapter's quality gets transitioned over to the following ones.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
But doesn't this contradict Trunks only spending 8 months in the future rather than the full 3 years? The gap between timelines was originally 20 years, but was reduced to 17 years.
It took 8 months to power up the machine. If we are to assume that what was said this chapter has always been the case with time travel, then Trunks would've known to wait 3 years (re: when the androids would be showing up) rather than going back to the past the minute the machine was ready.
perucho1990 wrote:One Piece is doing fine(Law was a main character in Punk Hazard and Dressrosa arc due to his popularity), then u have the likes of Star Wars with Han Solo being relevant to the main plot in TFA movie,
One Piece and TFA are both varying levels of bad. TFA, in addition to that, is a shallow experience primarily because of its pandering to manchildren who grew up in the 80s.
ekrolo2 wrote:Other than that though, I think the manga is on the fast track to having a fairly good final act for this arc if this chapter's quality gets transitioned over to the following ones.
I agree, though it depends on which plot points are Toriyama's and which ones are not. It's a shame the other two thirds of the story were underwhelming.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
But doesn't this contradict Trunks only spending 8 months in the future rather than the full 3 years? The gap between timelines was originally 20 years, but was reduced to 17 years.
It took 8 months to power up the machine. If we are to assume that what was said this chapter has always been the case with time travel, then Trunks would've known to wait 3 years (re: when the androids would be showing up) rather than going back to the past the minute the machine was ready.
But if that was the case, he'd still be from 20 years in the future rather than 17.
Doctor. wrote:
The differences are enough, it's not just about his "smugness" or his "Goku hate", those are two aspects of a list of many that are missing. He doesn't have a calm, collected behavior and freaks out over every little thing. He fights like a brute. In fact, the whole flamboyant beauty aspect of his personality is almost nonexistent; small things like his air movements during his fight with SS2 Goku, his attitude towards SSB Vegeta and his SSR transformation made this a part of his character way before the second trip. In contrast, the manga is already at the mafuba and the ROSAT training, and he's still a brute. He's a much bigger coward (small point, as Black in general is a coward, but he didn't seem scared of Beerus at all in the anime, I guess it ties in with the "freaks out over every little thing" complaint). He doesn't share Goku's personality traits nor does he have his weird respect/obsession for him. Not to mention he seems more like future Zamasu's underling rather than the guy who pulled the strings all along.
Anime!Black wasn't a perfect character by any means, but he was unique. This one is literally a generic movie villain you'd expect Toei to come up with.
I would say Anime Black personality was that great that fans completely overlooked the amount of powerups he got throughout the whole arc. Even with the whole smoke grenades scene happening, it still didnt kill his credibility which was impressive.
TKA wrote:TFA, in addition to that, is a shallow experience primarily because of its pandering to manchildren who grew up in the 80s.
Preach. On. Brother!
Doctor. wrote:I agree, though it depends on which plot points are Toriyama's and which ones are not. It's a shame the other two-thirds of the story were underwhelming.
A confirmation that the best version of Super exists between some bizarro combo of the anime and manga?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
TKA wrote:
A character's popularity should never influence how they're treated in a work. That's how you end up with bad and shallow stories.
Fans are a pretty stupid breed when it comes to the show they're fans of, and they're often times best ignored. That includes their appreciation of certain characters.
One Piece is doing fine(Law was a main character in Punk Hazard and Dressrosa arc due to his popularity), then u have the likes of Star Wars with Han Solo being relevant to the main plot in TFA movie,
It just doesnt make sense to have one of ur most popular characters being brought back and treat him like shit, even Toei saw this and tried to make Trunks relevant.
And because of that, he has now been labeled a gary stu, the male erza and not many people want to ever see him again.
Toyo may not be using but at least in many eyes, he ain't ruining him.
The manga is suffering from the same thing the Android arc has in that Trunks is little more than a walking plot device to get the ball rolling. Remove him after his initial trip and barely anything of worth would change, I guess Cell might try to destroy the world but it's not like he doesn't have a shortage of people to ask about why Vegeta is suddenly so powerful after a few days.
Toei did have the most "fanservice appropriate" approach by trying to power him up, they just did a shit job at it is all.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Totamo wrote:
And because of that, he has now been labeled a gary stu, the male erza and not many people want to ever see him again.
Toyo may not be using but at least in many eyes, he ain't ruining him.
But Trunks couldnt kill Zamasu for good, he only destroyed his physical body and later his timeline got completely destroyed. If he were like Erza, Black wouldve turned into a joke(worse than his portrayal in the manga), or Trunks couldve defeated him with 1 arm while the rest of his body was broken.
A bit offtopic but when I saw Erza pulling a Kid Goku in the latest chapters almost made me threw up.
Last edited by perucho1990 on Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
But if that was the case, he'd still be from 20 years in the future rather than 17.
Eh, even without this new revelation, the time travel aspect of DB is still dodgy at best. I'm trying to take this in stride, even though there's a logic hiccup.
ekrolo2 wrote:A confirmation that the best version of Super exists between some bizarro combo of the anime and manga?
Yes, it's called the "Dragon Ball Super - Future Trunks arc Rewrite by Doctor.", one day the world might see its glory. Joke, guys, pls.
Your "Joke, guys. pls" is too small to see, just so you know.
Edit: Woah, I can see it now. Never mind.
ekrolo2 wrote:The manga is suffering from the same thing the Android arc has in that Trunks is little more than a walking plot device to get the ball rolling. Remove him after his initial trip and barely anything of worth would change, I guess Cell might try to destroy the world but it's not like he doesn't have a shortage of people to ask about why Vegeta is suddenly so powerful after a few days.
Toei did have the most "fanservice appropriate" approach by trying to power him up, they just did a shit job at it is all.
It's not like he'd just blow up the planet out of nowhere without at least seeking Goku out first.
Totamo wrote:
And because of that, he has now been labeled a gary stu, the male erza and not many people want to ever see him again.
Toyo may not be using but at least in many eyes, he ain't ruining him.
But Trunks couldnt kill Zamasu for good, he only destroyed his physical body and later his destroyed got completely destroyed. If he were like Erza, Black wouldve turned into a joke(worse than his portrayal in the manga), or Trunks couldve defeated him with 1 arm while the rest of his body was broken.
A bit offtopic but when I saw Erza pulling a Kid Goku in the latest chapters almost made me threw up.
I agree with you and I was glad toei made him useful but it has lead to one of the most divisive things about super to date and trust me, thats saying something.
perucho1990 wrote:It just doesnt make sense to have one of ur most popular characters being brought back and treat him like shit, even Toei saw this and tried to make Trunks relevant.
You should probably watch this video. Trunks doesn't have to be fighting, and doesn't need to get the final hit in to be the hero.
I get that shonen anime and other popcorn-junk genres make it seem like a hero has to fight and be heroic in order to be the hero of the story, but that's a restrictive and narrow way to write characters. It's not even a thing Dragonball squarely relies on.
For example, Bardock is the hero of "Father of Goku," despite spending that movie getting his ass kicked and then getting annihilated by Frieza. Bardock gets the thematic win. We know what will happen to Frieza down the line, as does Bardock. He doesn't need to beat Frieza to win.
Totamo wrote:
I agree with you and I was glad toei made him useful but it has lead to one of the most divisive things about super to date and trust me, thats saying something.
Mirai Zamasu spirit still intact was logical, it tells u Champa was right in the Super Dragon Balls having no limits in what kind of wish a person wants. Zamasus immortality was that hax it needed Zeno to kill him for good.
Having Zamasu kill everyone was something completely unexpected, it was the first time the Z fighters take a big L in the history of the franchise.
perucho1990 wrote:It just doesnt make sense to have one of ur most popular characters being brought back and treat him like shit, even Toei saw this and tried to make Trunks relevant.
You should probably watch this video. Trunks doesn't have to be fighting, and doesn't need to get the final hit in to be the hero.
I get that shonen anime and other popcorn-junk genres make it seem like a hero has to fight and be heroic in order to be the hero of the story, but that's a restrictive and narrow way to write characters. It's not even a thing Dragonball squarely relies on.
For example, Bardock is the hero of "Father of Goku," despite spending that movie getting his ass kicked and then getting annihilated by Frieza. Bardock gets the thematic win. We know what will happen to Frieza down the line, as does Bardock. He doesn't need to beat Frieza to win.
That is precisely why Trunks should've "won" not by killing Zamasu but by proving Zamasu's world view as wrong. That's the biggest issue with the arc itself, nobody really proves anything. Trunks doesn't prove his point of mortals being worthwhile and Zamasu doesn't prove his by showing they're worthless scum, all of it literally gets swept aside by the press of a button for a living plot device to solve the remaining physical threat.
It's why LightBings proposed ending with Zamasu spending eons in his so-called utopia and coming to realize how wrong he was is far more satisfying than anything Super itself will do, even in the manga.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
I enjoyed seeing smart and caring Goku, apologizing for not being able to bring FTrunks along. How I miss this Goku!
And Black kitty came to the past, OMG!
Supreme Kais more actives too. Black is so ruthless, I like Black and Zamasu the way they are here.
I kinda rolled my eyes at Gowasu trying to reason with Goku Black. I mean, really, what kind of response was he expecting. Manga Goku Black also still feels a bit too undercooked for my liking. And the time travel explanation felt a bit unnecessary. And man, as much as Future Trunks' power ridiculously swelled so much in the anime, as least he could put up a fight instead of being a total punching bag like he is in the anime. But other than that, great art as usual, really well streamlined story and the senzu incident was handled with more grace. I really like the alternate take of the manga. Like I've stated before, it compliments the weaknesses of the anime.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
