Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

I was speaking more for the anime, the manga goes the sensible route and just treats God and Blue as strong transformations separate from the golden line. The anime is why ask for a distinction between the golden SS and the Blue one, they're both forms of Super Saiyan for a Saiyan who has the power of SSGod.

I was positing something for the anime as well. Of course, one would have to assume that Zamasu's line in the manga also holds true for the anime, which I have no concrete proof of. I just don't personally believe the two mediums and continuities to be quite as drastically different as some might believe - at least not currently, what with the Dragon Room possibly making an effort to make everything more consolidated (just speculating here).

That's not necessarily my own theory either, but I think it's an alternative for people who aren't fond of the idea of two bases.

[ekrolo2]

I was positing something for the anime as well. Of course, one would have to assume that Zamasu's line in the manga also holds true for the anime, which I have no concrete proof of. I just don't personally believe the two mediums and continuities to be quite as drastically different as some might believe - at least not currently, what with the Dragon Room possibly making an effort to make everything more consolidated.

I believe they're supposed to be closer together as of the U6 arc, that's where Toriyama clearly changed his mind about how the forms work and where Goku & Vegeta stand next to Beerus and Whis. The problem is the movie retellings of the anime used the movie rules and you can't really consolidate them together with the newer Super exclusive material with a large amount of hoop jumping.

[perucho1990]

Does anyone find it odd that Cabba could get SO strong to above SSGod Goku without the Super Saiyan form? Wouldn't he have to train with Vados or someone?

Wouldn't he have to be below SSGod Goku?

Toei basically buffed everyone in the U6 and Piccolo to "God-tier level" so they dont look like utter chumps like their manga counterparts. I dont blame Toei because Toriyama made the secondary character way too weak compared to Goku and Vegeta.

[ChiefWamsutta]

The biggest issue I take with Cabba being nearly god-tier is Vegeta stating the former was a puny fighter without Super Saiyan. Putting aside the theory about Vegeta bluffing, more or less... if anything 'cause I'd find it a rather poor bluff in itself.

That's the thing though. It's not a bluff because there's really nothing to imply it's a bluff, just as there was nothing to suggest Beerus lied when he said he turned his power up to 10% to take out Vegeta or that he briefly feared Goku's power as a Super Saiyan God. In fact this whole tier of strength was made out to be such a big deal that it was given its own term in the series as well as its own attributes, and absolutely none of the protagonists besides Goku and Vegeta were mentioned or even hinted to be in that range at all.

People pretend that this "there's just one strong base on par with Super Saiyan God and it becomes dozens of times stronger with Super Saiyan forms" interpretation is the theory with the least amount of problems but the reality is that it actually has the most inconsistencies and holes, assumes that a myriad of characters are wrong/lying, and doesn't even seem to be what Toriyama intended for Super in the first place. It's just a weak theory and I wouldn't be surprised if it has even more things at odds with it in the upcoming tournament.

So, how does golden Super Saiyan work now when Blue is Super Saiyan for a Saiyan who has the power of SSGod? I'd like a non two base theory explanation for this.

One might reasonably assume that if Goku suppresses his power and becomes a Super Saiyan, he'll become the golden form instead of the blue form. That would be consistent with Zamasu's line in the most recent chapter where he infers that a Super Saiyan's hair changes color when it surpasses a Super Saiyan God.

Of course, suppressed vs. non-suppressed is also a kind of "two base theory", but not a terribly literal one.

SS2 Future Trunks bothers me. ... SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, SSRose Goku Black, and Future Zamasu should all be in the same range of god tier. I don't know how SS2 Future Trunks could harm Future Zamasu in Round 1.

[ChiefWamsutta]

ACTUALLY now that I'm thinking about it ... the 12 Universe Tournament could give us the answer we need about Cabba and Frost.

We're gonna see them battle again, and hopefully Goku and Vegeta will comment about their strength increase. If they say that Frost and Cabba are now at God level, we will know that they weren't in the U6 tournament.

It all depends on the dialogue said during Cabba and Frost's fights.

[perucho1990]

With the manga we could confirm Mirai Zamasu was always weaker than SSJB, in the anime he made Goku put efforts but he got rekt once Goku was 100% serious (Goku backhand punch which made him look like a joke).

Trunks reached around SSJB territory thanks to Vegeta training(in the manga u see Trunks damaging Black, which was all thanks to the training with Vegeta).

[ChiefWamsutta]

With the manga we could confirm Mirai Zamasu was always weaker than SSJB, in the anime he made Goku put efforts but he got rekt once Goku was 100% serious (Goku backhand punch which made him look like a joke).

Trunks reached around SSJB territory thanks to Vegeta training(in the manga u see Trunks damaging Black, which was all thanks to the training with Vegeta).

Yeah, but Future Trunks reaches SSRose/SSBlue power with his SSRage form in the anime. I think it should go this way here. But that would be weird why Trunks could keep up.

During Round 1:
SSRose Goku Black
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta
Future Zamasu
...
SS2 Future Trunks

[perucho1990]

Trunks should get SSJ Ikari in order to survive vs Black and Zamasu otherwise it would be a bigger case of PIS than the Cell Saga.

[Hugo Boss]

Showing off a greater level of power just for the sake of show off is not in-character for Goku. He is the kind that usually holds back. It's very clear Trunks is no match for SS3, but SS2 is a different matter. However you see their little skirmish, the power Trunks was hiding was revealed without a transformation. If Goku was able to block Trunks' strongest attack with just SS2 he would probably do it.

If Black could beat SS3 it seems he was playing around with SS2 Goku, no matter what kind of compliment he gives to him. Perhaps he was more interested in learning from Goku's fighting style and assimilate it to his body.

He was playing with Goku, but he was also impressed by Goku's power, hence him saying, 'so this is the power of Son Goku', with a happy smile. If he was only putting off as much energy as Trunks at his best, he would have forced Goku to put in more work since he fought that level of power for awhile.

Black was probably referring to the fact that fighting Goku as a Super Saiyan would help him to evolve to his own version of Super Saiyan. He wasn't using his full strength on purpose, otherwise Goku wouldn't give what he wanted, knowledge and pain. Also, he knew Goku and Vegeta can use Super Saiyan Blue, so if things get dangerous he would risk the chance of getting stronger.

Cabba is a Saiyan from a different universe who evolved differently than the U7 Saiyans. So why would his growth be exactly the same as U7's Saiyans? And I wouldn't call it 'barely' surpassed Frost given what Super Saiyan Goku did to Frost without really trying.

I'm not saying Cabba should be as strong as Raditz, but to claim his growth can be compared to that of a Super Saiyan God isn't reasonable. He barely surpassed Frost because he couldn't even scratch Vegeta as a Super Saiyan.

[HeroR]

Hit wasn't overwhelmed, in fact he dodged Goku's final attack and Goku admitted that Hit is stronger.

No. He said he couldn't fight all out, not that he's stronger.

[RehBeh]

Hit wasn't overwhelmed, in fact he dodged Goku's final attack and Goku admitted that Hit is stronger.

No. He said he couldn't fight all out, not that he's stronger.

To be exact, Goku said "You are actually much stronger than this."

[HeroR]

Showing off a greater level of power just for the sake of show off is not in-character for Goku. He is the kind that usually holds back. It's very clear Trunks is no match for SS3, but SS2 is a different matter. However you see their little skirmish, the power Trunks was hiding was revealed without a transformation. If Goku was able to block Trunks' strongest attack with just SS2 he would probably do it.

If Black could beat SS3 it seems he was playing around with SS2 Goku, no matter what kind of compliment he gives to him. Perhaps he was more interested in learning from Goku's fighting style and assimilate it to his body.

He was playing with Goku, but he was also impressed by Goku's power, hence him saying, 'so this is the power of Son Goku', with a happy smile. If he was only putting off as much energy as Trunks at his best, he would have forced Goku to put in more work since he fought that level of power for awhile.

Black was probably referring to the fact that fighting Goku as a Super Saiyan would help him to evolve to his own version of Super Saiyan. He wasn't using his full strength on purpose, otherwise Goku wouldn't give what he wanted, knowledge and pain. Also, he knew Goku and Vegeta can use Super Saiyan Blue, so if things get dangerous he would risk the chance of getting stronger.

Cabba is a Saiyan from a different universe who evolved differently than the U7 Saiyans. So why would his growth be exactly the same as U7's Saiyans? And I wouldn't call it 'barely' surpassed Frost given what Super Saiyan Goku did to Frost without really trying.

I'm not saying Cabba should be as strong as Raditz, but to claim his growth can be compared to that of a Super Saiyan God isn't reasonable. He barely surpassed Frost because he couldn't even scratch Vegeta as a Super Saiyan.

Black wouldn't need Goku to evolve if he fought Goku on the exact level he was fighting Trunks. If that was the case, Trunks alone should have been enough for him to get Rose. And he matched himself exactly to Goku. He didn't get himself hurt on purpose.

Why isn't Cabba reasonable? Do you know the standards and growth of the average U6 Saiyan? As for not scratching Vegeta, are you forgetting that Vegeta beat the shit out of him and he nearly lost consciousness? What makes you think Cabba was at full power after that? Even then, he knocked around Vegeta when Frost couldn't even touch a Super Saiyan at full strength.

To be exact, Goku said "You are actually much stronger than this."

Which is what I said. He never claimed Hit was stronger and he had the match all but won until he realized that Hit couldn't use his killing techniques.

Anime Hit was fighting almost evenly with Goku as a Kaioken x10 and Goku wasn't sure to win even with Hit holding back.

[RehBeh]

To be exact, Goku said "You are actually much stronger than this."

Which is what I said. He never claimed Hit was stronger and he had the match all but won until he realized that Hit couldn't use his killing techniques.

Anime Hit was fighting almost evenly with Goku as a Kaioken x10 and Goku wasn't sure to win even with Hit holding back.

Just no. He didn't have the match all won. He even expressed shock when he realized Hit dodged his Kamehameha. Goku surrendered both in the anime and the manga to fight him at his best.

[HeroR]

To be exact, Goku said "You are actually much stronger than this."

Which is what I said. He never claimed Hit was stronger and he had the match all but won until he realized that Hit couldn't use his killing techniques.

Anime Hit was fighting almost evenly with Goku as a Kaioken x10 and Goku wasn't sure to win even with Hit holding back.

Just no. He didn't have the match all won. He even expressed shock when he realized Hit dodged his Kamehameha. Goku surrendered both in the anime and the manga to fight him at his best.

He was surprised, but the advantage was clearly Goku's and he would have won against Hit holding back. The anime makes it unclear if Goku could of won even with Hit holding back.

[Freeza9000]

Does anyone find it odd that Cabba could get SO strong to above SSGod Goku without the Super Saiyan form? Wouldn't he have to train with Vados or someone?

Wouldn't he have to be below SSGod Goku?

Freeza was born with one of the most highest potential in the franchise and even reaching god-tier in just a matter of 4 months. Not to mention, he didn't have god ki. So Cabba being that strong isn't so far-fetched.

You are talking about two different characters. Freeza is a special case. Cabba is a Saiyan, he has no reason to be that strong, unless he learns how to use god ki. Even as a Super Saiyan he barely surpass Frost, who never underwent the same training as Freeza.

We barely know what training or experience Cabba has, so who are you to decide whether he shouldn't be as strong or not. Not trying to sound like a condescending prick btw. Also, it has been established that one doesn't need to possess God ki in order to be as powerful as God.

[Hugo Boss]

Black wouldn't need Goku to evolve if he fought Goku on the exact level he was fighting Trunks. If that was the case, Trunks alone should have been enough for him to get Rose. And he matched himself exactly to Goku. He didn't get himself hurt on purpose.

Why isn't Cabba reasonable? Do you know the standards and growth of the average U6 Saiyan? As for not scratching Vegeta, are you forgetting that Vegeta beat the shit out of him and he nearly lost consciousness? What makes you think Cabba was at full power after that? Even then, he knocked around Vegeta when Frost couldn't even touch a Super Saiyan at full strength.

The context implies Goku as a Super Saiyan was the ideal foe, Trunks wasn't able to give the knowledge Black was seeking. And yes, Black matched Goku on purpose and he was expecting Goku to be good enough to damage him one way or another. That's what usually happens when the fighters are close in power.

Quite frankly, I don't think we need to be experts in U6 Saiyans' power evolution to see that Cabba being compared to Super Saiyan God doesn't sound reasonable. He just became a Super Saiyan, so the damage he took from Vegeta shouldn't matter. Besides, none said he was weaker than he was supposed to be, so this is a pretty subjective observation to make. The fact that he was able to deliver some blows is what makes me think he is stronger than Frost, that's why I remembered him. I don't know about anyone else between SS Cabba and Frost that I could compare them with.

We barely know what training or experience Cabba has, so who are you to decide whether he shouldn't be as strong or not. Not trying to sound like a condescending prick btw. Also, it has been established that one doesn't need to possess God ki in order to be as powerful as God.

Don't worry, it's fine. I just have the impression that disregarding any comparison between Cabba and Super Saiyan God sounds too absurd sometimes. I mean, really? I personally think it's ridiculous, but okay. And I think Golden Freeza, Hit and Black/Zamasu are exceptions among billions of possibilities. The next time I could see something like that can be in Universal Survival Arc.

[perucho1990]

He was surprised, but the advantage was clearly Goku's and he would have won against Hit holding back. The anime makes it unclear if Goku could of won even with Hit holding back.

He couldve beaten Hit back then if he landed the Kamehameha, Have we even seen Hit tank a Ki blast? The only time he did, he ended up on the ground(Episode 72), when he tells Hit "ur killing blow wont touch me again"...that was the same confidence Goku had when he faced him on Episode 72 and countered the killing techniques.

[Bullza]

So, how does golden Super Saiyan work now when Blue is Super Saiyan for a Saiyan who has the power of SSGod? I'd like a non two base theory explanation for this.

I don't know if you can really. With Super they never gave a more detailed explanation on what Super Saiyan Blue was. It was merely just supposed to be what his Super Saiyan form looked like having now obtained the power of a Super Saiyan God.

That was it, he just turns Blue now.

It's one reason why I think there probably was a retcon because Toriyama may have wanted to bring back the other Super Saiyan forms but he'd wrote himself into a corner with the powers so he changed it so he never absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God. Something that wasn't said in the manga version.

[HeroR]

The context implies Goku as a Super Saiyan was the ideal foe, Trunks wasn't able to give the knowledge Black was seeking. And yes, Black matched Goku on purpose and he was expecting Goku to be good enough to damage him one way or another. That's what usually happens when the fighters are close in power.

Quite frankly, I don't think we need to be experts in U6 Saiyans' power evolution to see that Cabba being compared to Super Saiyan God doesn't sound reasonable. He just became a Super Saiyan, so the damage he took from Vegeta shouldn't matter. Besides, none said he was weaker than he was supposed to be, so this is a pretty subjective observation to make. The fact that he was able to deliver some blows is what makes me think he is stronger than Frost, that's why I remembered him. I don't know about anyone else between SS Cabba and Frost that I could compare them with.

We barely know what training or experience Cabba has, so who are you to decide whether he shouldn't be as strong or not. Not trying to sound like a condescending prick btw. Also, it has been established that one doesn't need to possess God ki in order to be as powerful as God.

Don't worry, it's fine. I just have the impression that disregarding any comparison between Cabba and Super Saiyan God sounds too absurd sometimes. I mean, really? I personally think it's ridiculous, but okay. And I think Golden Freeza, Hit and Black/Zamasu are exceptions among billions of possibilities. The next time I could see something like that can be in Universal Survival Arc.

It was a big deal since Super Saiyan 2 Goku was stronger than Trunks. If they were exactly the same, then they would be no point for Black to get excited. He fought and stomped someone of that level several times. He also matched Goku so the fight would go on longer, not so he can get hurt since the two times Goku really nailed him happened when he was off-guard. He didn't just like Goku beat on him.

That is just common sense that he would be weaker than he was at the start because Vegeta beat the crap out of him and Cabba nearly lost consciousness. He was about to give up before Vegeta stopped him. And the damaged he took does matter since Gohan nearly fainted the first time he went Super Saiyan, in a control environment. Goku is the only Super Saiyan he saw fight and get empowered after being drained of almost all his energy.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I just noticed something. Goku reverting back to regular Super Saiyan against Zamasu after using Super Saiyan Blue in the latest chapter of the manga showed us 2 things: 10% SSB Vegeta is stronger than SS2 Vegeta (who is many times stronger than SS3 Goku), and Vegeta can't go Super Saiyan God like Goku.

Goku didn't have his stamina drained after he went from SSB to SS, so the stamina drain comes after using SSB more than once. But the fact that Vegeta used SSB against Hit even though he knew about the stamina drain means that SSB at 10% is still his most powerful form, and the transformations that Vegeta has been seen using are SS, SS2, and SSB. But since we saw from Goku that SSG is stronger than 10% SSB, and Vegeta didn't use it, it means that Vegeta can't use it.