Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

What numbers do you give to Muri and other elder, dragon-type Namekians? Cardass gives him a power level of 5,000; much stronger than even those Namekian farmers. But most of the power levels in cardass seems to be random card game stats only loosely based on power levels so I'd take them as a grain of salt.

And what about Dende? He's probably fairly weak as a kid, but he must have grown fairly strong as a product of his potential unlock. Can Dende be stronger than the average Namekian Warrior?

Elders I give anywhere between 1,500 and 2,000 with Muri being on the highest of that scale.

Dende was described as having small ki when Vegeta was looking for them after killing Dodoria no? At best I give him 25.

After the potential unlock he can fly at high speeds so his power must have gotten a big boost. I have him at 1,000 at this point. My silly reasoning is that Dende could do Dragon Balls that granted 3 times the wishes of what Kami's (Who I have at 330) ones could do.

[DanielSSJ]

What numbers do you give to Muri and other elder, dragon-type Namekians? Cardass gives him a power level of 5,000; much stronger than even those Namekian farmers. But most of the power levels in cardass seems to be random card game stats only loosely based on power levels so I'd take them as a grain of salt.

And what about Dende? He's probably fairly weak as a kid, but he must have grown fairly strong as a product of his potential unlock. Can Dende be stronger than the average Namekian Warrior?

The elders are all probably around the 1,500 range, with Moori being closer to 2,000, given that he was the Grand Elder's chosen successor.

Regarding Dende, I'd probably have him at around 5,000 after having his dormant power unleashed. Might seem small all things considered, but his potential is in using more esoteric abilities like healing or making Dragon Balls, not fighting, so his "battle power" probably wouldn't get that high. Before that, I think it's a stretch that he'd even break the triple digits. Around 50 maybe?

[Mireya]

Do you guys think Yamcha and Kuririn at the 23rd Budokai have surpassed Goku and Tenshinhan from the 22nd Tournament?

[Koitsukai]

Do you guys think Yamcha and Kuririn at the 23rd Budokai have surpassed Goku and Tenshinhan from the 22nd Tournament?

I think all we have to compare them is Krilin decently fighting a supressed Piccolo Jr. and Yamcha not doing very well against Shen(Kami)
About Krilin, who knows? maybe a suppressed Ma Jr. is already stronger than his father.

I guess you could say that Shen and Piccolo Daimao should be equals and if Yamcha couldn't touch Shen, then he wouldn't touch Piccolo either, thus Yamcha might not be that far off from the 22nd TB's finalists, or maybe on par with them. I think it's been 3 years between both arcs, so one would think Yamcha at least closed the gap with that iteration of Tenshinhan.


So, I think they can at least put up a decent fight against them, and make them earn that win.

[LightBing]

Do you guys think Yamcha and Kuririn at the 23rd Budokai have surpassed Goku and Tenshinhan from the 22nd Tournament?

Definitely. Most telling is Muten Roshi saying how all of them surpassed him, when he's was pretty close to 22nd TB Goku and Tenshinhan.
Then there's 22nd TB Goku being half as strong as Old Piccolo Daimao, comparatively Kuririn and Yamcha put decent and commendable performances against the stronger Piccolo and Shen.

Not only are they stronger, I say they are much stronger.

[Mireya]

Do you guys think Yamcha and Kuririn at the 23rd Budokai have surpassed Goku and Tenshinhan from the 22nd Tournament?

Definitely. Most telling is Muten Roshi saying how all of them surpassed him, when he's was pretty close to 22nd TB Goku and Tenshinhan.
Then there's 22nd TB Goku being half as strong as Old Piccolo Daimao, comparatively Kuririn and Yamcha put decent and commendable performances against the stronger Piccolo and Shen.

Not only are they stronger, I say they are much stronger.

Well, Roshi is considerably weaker than 22nd Goku/Ten.

[dragonball0900]

Do you guys think Yamcha and Kuririn at the 23rd Budokai have surpassed Goku and Tenshinhan from the 22nd Tournament?

Yes, they did.

Both were able to see Tien (speed suppressed) and Weighted Goku's movements while no one else could. These movements were stated to be as fast as Kid Goku vs King Piccolo. Meanwhile, Post 22nd Budokai Kid Goku could not even fight back against the far weaker Old King Piccolo. It was only when Tien used his full speed that Krillin and Yamcha could not see him.

Then we have Cyborg Tao, who couldn't see a suppressed Tien's movements. This Tao was heavily implied to be above 22nd Budokai Tien and Kid Goku based on Tsuru's confidence that Tao as a cyborg would easily kill them.

Then we have Yamcha and Krillin impressing Kami and Piccolo Jr. (Yamcha mostly due to his Sokidan). Based on all these factors, 23rd Budokai Krillin and Yamcha were way stronger than anyone from the 22nd Budokai, but still weaker than Young King Piccolo given that they still considered Weighted Goku's speed as not being normal. I say they could even beat Old King Piccolo.

[LightBing]

Well, Roshi is considerably weaker than 22nd Goku/Ten.

What are you basing this off? He's slightly weaker than them as supported by the quotes below, most apparent being the "might have lost" line.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 123, P13.4
Tenshinhan: “This geezer is absolutely unbelievable. I don’t know who he is, but his power goes above even Lord Tsuru-sennin…!”

Chapter: 124, P14.5-6
Tsuru-sennin: “He just didn’t want to get pitifully defeated fighting head-to-head! What a coward!”
Tenshinhan: “No…He still hadn’t put out his full power…”

Chapter: 125, P6.6
Context: Speaking to Tenshinhan.
Kame-sennin: “One thing might be just as you said though…I might really have lost even if we had continued fighting like that.”

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do you guys think Yamcha and Kuririn at the 23rd Budokai have surpassed Goku and Tenshinhan from the 22nd Tournament?

Obviously. They probably wouldn't even bother participating if weaker than the last Budokai's winners, and Roshi admits all the Z Fighters are stronger than he is. Hell even Yajirobe was shown to be on the level of pre Choushinsui Goku, probably stronger after years climbing up and down of Karin's tower. Cyborg Tao Pai Pai also can't even see suppressed Tenshinhan moving, while Yamcha and Kuririn could.

I think all the finalists of this Budokai are somewhere on Piccolo Daimao's level. Kuririn holds his own against Piccolo Jr and even earns his respect, with Piccolo admitting world conquer might not be as easy. That's a far cry from being on the level of someone Piccolo Daimao could destroy without even going all out on his senile state. Yamcha also earned praise from Kami.


Tenshinhan/Weighted Goku: 225
Kid Goku/Piccolo Daimao (FP): 200
Kuririn: 180
Yamcha: 175
Young Piccolo Daimao: 160
Chi-Chi: 160
Tao Pai Pai: 150
Old Piccolo Daimao (Full Power): 150

What are you basing this off? He's slightly weaker than them as supported by the quotes below, most apparent being the "might have lost" line.

What about this quote?

Chapter: 127, P13.1-2
Tsuru-sennin: “H-he’s outrageous…He just might be good enough to have defeated Tao Pai Pai…”
Kame-sennin: “Goku gets bigger and bigger each time I see him…I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished…”

[LightBing]

What about this quote?

Chapter: 127, P13.1-2
Tsuru-sennin: “H-he’s outrageous…He just might be good enough to have defeated Tao Pai Pai…”
Kame-sennin: “Goku gets bigger and bigger each time I see him…I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished…”

It's the same thing said before about Tenshinhan, now applied to Goku. It's essentially the same quote a little later.

The range is arguable between Muten Roshi and the two but he's definitely below by a margin that makes the outcome open.

[Mireya]

Well, Roshi is considerably weaker than 22nd Goku/Ten.

What are you basing this off? He's slightly weaker than them as supported by the quotes below, most apparent being the "might have lost" line.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 123, P13.4
Tenshinhan: “This geezer is absolutely unbelievable. I don’t know who he is, but his power goes above even Lord Tsuru-sennin…!”

Chapter: 124, P14.5-6
Tsuru-sennin: “He just didn’t want to get pitifully defeated fighting head-to-head! What a coward!”
Tenshinhan: “No…He still hadn’t put out his full power…”

Chapter: 125, P6.6
Context: Speaking to Tenshinhan.
Kame-sennin: “One thing might be just as you said though…I might really have lost even if we had continued fighting like that.”

This was before Roshi knew Goku was hiding a new level, the battle level, which surprised Roshi at its mere existence (you can see it in your manga). Tenshinhan was arguably not at full power beforehand either, judging by Roshi's surprise at the speed he was hitting Goku in the initial exchange of the fight. Mind you too, Tenshinhan, right before the match against Goku, stated he finally might have some fun:

Chapter 127
Page 14
Context: Goku just defeated Kuririn
Tenshinhan: Against him, I might possibly be able to have an enjoyable fight

Also, when Goku counterattacked Tenshinhan, this latter said:

Tenshinhan: I-I'm so happy...!! I never knew... there was someone out there... who could really challenge me... I've never felt so alive!

[LightBing]

This was before Roshi knew Goku was hiding a new level, the battle level, which surprised Roshi at its mere existence (you can see it in your manga). Tenshinhan was arguably not at full power beforehand either, judging by Roshi's surprise at the speed he was hitting Goku in the initial exchange of the fight. Mind you too, Tenshinhan, right before the match against Goku, stated he finally might have some fun:

Chapter 127
Page 14
Context: Goku just defeated Kuririn
Tenshinhan: Against him, I might possibly be able to have an enjoyable fight

Also, when Goku counterattacked Tenshinhan, this latter said:

Tenshinhan: I-I'm so happy...!! I never knew... there was someone out there... who could really challenge me... I've never felt so alive!

That reaction from Muten Roshi is what I use to be certain Goku was stronger than him, otherwise we couldn't be sure.

Tenshinhan did use his full-power against Muten Roshi but only for one move.
Chapter: 124, P2.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Alright, I’ll fight you seriously just a little bit…!”
Kame-sennin: “Wha!? Are you saying you weren’t [fighting] seriously before?”


He didn't get a chance to have fun against Muten Roshi because the later never fought seriously.
Chapter: 124, P14.5-6
Tsuru-sennin: “He just didn’t want to get pitifully defeated fighting head-to-head! What a coward!”
Tenshinhan: “No…He still hadn’t put out his full power…”

[Mireya]

Tenshinhan did use his full-power against Muten Roshi but only for one move.

The "little bit" could also indicate that Tenshinhan would put forth "just a little" bit of his full power, similar to how Piccolo Junior stated he'd show Kuririn "just a little bit" of his true power.

Plus, Roshi also stated amidst the fight against Tenshinhan that he'd "fight seriously", despite the later quote you posted indicating he in fact didn't. So I think this "fight seriously" speeches get thrown around sometimes more as a "I'll get more serious" type of thing rather than a 100% confirmedly indicative the fighters did put forth indeed 100%.

Chapter 123
Page 8
Context: Just after Tenshinhan kicks Roshi
Muten Roshi: Mhmm. Very impressive... looks like I have to get serious..."

He didn't get a chance to have fun against Muten Roshi because the

Sure, but Roshi also admitted (although not so surely) inferiority to Goku before he was aware Goku was hiding a true new level, which I think certainly indicates Goku at full power surpassed him considerably.. in short, Roshi wasn't so certain at his inferiority by Goku and Tenshinhan (as displayed in the quoted you showed), but was further taken a back by their true power (Tenshinhan's prowess when throwing the 1st assault at Goku and Goku's match level)... so he was close to their suppressed, not-full throttle level.

Muten Roshi -- 90
Son Goku (holding back) -- 100
Tenshinhan (holding back) -- 100
Tenshinhan (full power) -- 120
Son Goku (full power) -- 125

It's also worth noting that Roshi was anticipating a good match between what he knew of Goku and Tenshinhan... until their true power selves came as a further surprise to him.

Although sometimes contestable, the official numbers also seem to place a considerable gap between both (Roshi : 139 ; Tenshinhan/Goku : 180).

[LightBing]

The "little bit" could also indicate that Tenshinhan would put forth "just a little" bit of his full power, similar to how Piccolo Junior stated he'd show Kuririn "just a little bit" of his true power.

Plus, Roshi also stated amidst the fight against Tenshinhan that he'd "fight seriously", despite the later quote you posted indicating he in fact didn't. So I think this "fight seriously" speeches get thrown around sometimes more as a "I'll get more serious" type of thing rather than a 100% confirmedly indicative the fighters did put forth indeed 100%.

Chapter 123
Page 8
Context: Just after Tenshinhan kicks Roshi
Muten Roshi: Mhmm. Very impressive... looks like I have to get serious..."

How do you put forth a little of your full power? It doesn't make sense.

For sure those lines are throw out a lot, which is why I take the latest line as definite. Roshi never fought Tenshinhan at full power by his own admission and Tenshinhan's evaluation.

I don't any proof besides Roshi's reaction to Goku's "battle power" reveal. All his other commentary is describing and explaining. I agree that he's weaker than both Tenshinhan and Goku but I don't see material for it to be considerable.

[Mireya]

I give in that there's conflicting evidence on this one. My way to reconcile that is to leave Roshi moderately close to Goku and Tenshinhan... not too far off, but not too close either.

Muten Roshi -- 52
Son Goku (match level) -- 53
Son Goku (battle level) -- 60

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Does this statement imply Vegeta's power level was already higher than 18,000 when he fought Goku on Earth?

Freeza: “That shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s all because Vegeta’s been ceaselessly fighting on the front lines. Perhaps he’s caught on to something new on Earth. It’s merely 24,000. That’s a figure that you two would be more than able to win against if you fought together, is it not? Fufufu…”

This is from when Vegeta fought Kui. Freeza says Vegeta has been on numerous battles, with the battle on Earth only being the most recent one. So naturally his power must have been raising since he was last seen with a power level of 18,000.

[DBZ Macky]

Does this statement imply Vegeta's power level was already higher than 18,000 when he fought Goku on Earth?

Freeza: “That shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s all because Vegeta’s been ceaselessly fighting on the front lines. Perhaps he’s caught on to something new on Earth. It’s merely 24,000. That’s a figure that you two would be more than able to win against if you fought together, is it not? Fufufu…”

This is from when Vegeta fought Kui. Freeza says Vegeta has been on numerous battles, with the battle on Earth only being the most recent one. So naturally his power must have been raising since he was last seen with a power level of 18,000.

I'd assume he wouldn't raise his battle power much unless the fights were actually intense. If the filler on planet Arlia is any indication, him and Nappa were likely just messing around while Freeza thought they were working hard.

[Thani]

Does this statement imply Vegeta's power level was already higher than 18,000 when he fought Goku on Earth?

Freeza: “That shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s all because Vegeta’s been ceaselessly fighting on the front lines. Perhaps he’s caught on to something new on Earth. It’s merely 24,000. That’s a figure that you two would be more than able to win against if you fought together, is it not? Fufufu…”

This is from when Vegeta fought Kui. Freeza says Vegeta has been on numerous battles, with the battle on Earth only being the most recent one. So naturally his power must have been raising since he was last seen with a power level of 18,000.

I'd assume he wouldn't raise his battle power much unless the fights were actually intense. If the filler on planet Arlia is any indication, him and Nappa were likely just messing around while Freeza thought they were working hard.

I think it's important to remember that Vegeta wasn't born with 18k. His trip to Earth could have very well been not much longer after he reached said level.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Just trying my hand at some scaling with the DBS anime.

SSJG Goku: 1
This is the base for the whole list. In his fight with Beerus, Goku is shown to absorb this power into his SSJ form and then even his base form by the end of the fight, as he pushes Beerus' "full power" attack.

FnF
Goku: 1.2
~ SSJ: 60
~ SSJ2: 120
~ SSJ3 (Goku only): 480
~ SSJG: 2,400
~ SSJB: 6,000
Including all the forms here to give a notion of the multipliers. SSJ1-3 are same as usual, God is 5x 3 and Blue is 2.5x God. Thanks to Whis' training, Goku and Vegeta are now stronger than ever. Kuririn even suggests Goku and Freeza are the strongest guys he ever sensed.

Vegeta: 1.25
~ SSJB: 6,250
Implied to be a little stronger than Goku.

Freeza: 1.2
~ Golden form: 7,200
~ Fatigued: 4,800
Fought evenly with Goku in base, but when transformed Freeza whooped his ass. That is, until his Ki started to drop...

Tournament of Destroyers

Goku/Vegeta: 1.5
~ SSJ: 75
~ SSJB: 7,500
Despite training 3 years in the Rosat, Goku and Vegeta haven't powered up that much. In fact, Goku thinks they're close to their limits. HA!

Botamo: 0.75
Nothing special, besides elasticity.

Frost: 1
~ Unseen 2nd form: 2
~ 3rd form: 3
~ Final form: 50
~ Injured: 45
Frost puts up a little warm up fight with Goku on his first form, but flies through his Kamehameha, Cooler style, on his "assault form". These are more or less the same multiplies I give to Freeza's transformations, sans the final form one.

Piccolo: 45
~ Makkankosappo: 150
Apparently he's weaker than fatigued Frost, but blocks all his hits with one hand...

Magetta: 75
Heavy.

Cabba: 1.5
~ SSJ: 75
Goes toe to toe with Vegeta. I don't think the tanking feat means Cabba is weaker since

Hit: 7,500
Fought evenly with Goku after the later figured his timeskip. Not adding adaptation levels since all he did was improve his UI.

SSJB Goku (Kaio-Ken x2): 15,000
~ Kaio-Ken x10: 75,000

Goku Black

Goku: 1.5
~ SSJ: 75
~ SSJ2 (Suppressed): 90
~ SSJ3 (Suppressed): 150

Trunks: 0.9
~ SSJ: 45
~ SSJ2: 90

Goku Black (Suppressed): 150
SSJ2 Goku (Full power): 150
Despite SSJ2 Trunks and Goku being shown to be equals, Trunks is surprised by Goku's power against Goku Black. This means Goku held back on Trunks.

SSJB Goku/Vegeta: 7,500

Trunks (Post training): 72
~ SSJ2: 7,200
Everyone is Blue tier on the future.

Goku Black (Full power): 3,000
~ SSJ Rosé: 7,500
~ Post Vegeta: 9,000
Somehow Zamasu can explore Zenkais better than anyone in Goku's body. He was already vaguely god tier in base, and Rosé put him on the same level as the other Blues. SSJG seems fitting since Rosé is his version of Blue, and Blue is SSJ God SSJ. I think Black initally just unlocked Goku's power and slowly grows stronger. He does say he got stronger just by stabbing Vegeta.

Zamasu: 150
~ Future: 6,750
Everyone is Blue tier on the future. Zamasu should be the weakest though since he's the only non Saiyan.

SSJB Goku (Enraged): 10,000

SSJR Goku Black (Post Goku): 12,500
SSJ2 Trunks (Godly wrath): 12,000

Vegeta (Post Rosat): 15
~ SSJB: 75,000

SSJR Goku Black (Peak): 125,000
A producer of the show has said Goku Black was the strongest character in the show besides the gods by episode 64, so he's stronger than U6's top tiers.

Merged Zamasu: 200,000
Father-Son Garlic Gun: 120,000

SSJB Goku (Beyond limits): 200,000
~ Kamehameha: 300,000
~ Kaio-Ken x2: 400,000
Somehow, Goku actually kicks the shit outta Merged Zamasu. I assume this boost is just temporary for simplicity's sake. Like a rage boost.

Merged Zamasu (Mutated): 2,400,000
~ Full power: 3,000,000

Vegetto: 200,000
~ SSJB: 2,500,000
Just like in Z, smaller SSJ boosts for fusions make everything easier.

Merged Zamasu (Deteriorating): 800,000
Jedi SSJ2 Trunks: 1,200,000

Tournament of Power

Goku: 15
~ SSJ: 750
~ SSJ2: 1,500
~ SSJ3: 6,000
~ SSJG: 30,000
~ SSJB: 75,000
~ Kaio-Ken: 150,000
Goku said he hasn't trained in a while before the ToP, but he seems to have closed the gap between himself and Vegeta. This is probably due to fighting Goku Black in the future.

Toppo: 150,000
Goku had to use Kaio-Ken to match him in the Zeno Exhibition Match.

Gohan: 15
~ SSJ: 750
~ SSJ2: 1,500
~ Ultimate: 75,000
There's an episode where Gohan fought evenly with Goku as SSJs. While Goku could've been holding back, Gohan has been training with Piccolo. Once Ultimate Gohan comes back, he's Blue tier.

Piccolo: 2,250
~ Post training: 22,500
~ Makkankosappo: 75,000
Piccolo is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan mid training.

#17: 75,000
Golden Freeza: 75,000
Blue tiers.

Vegeta: 30
~ SSJB: 150,000
Vegeta fights evenly with Toppo through the tournament. I have no idea whether he was already this strong or just got stronger before fighting. Porbably the later.

SSJB Goku (Kaio-Ken x10): 750,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 1,500,000

Genki-Dama: 3,750,000

UI Omen Goku: 6,000,000
Jiren: 6,000,000
Hit: 6,000,000
All of them are stronger than Vegetto Blue and Merged Zamasu.

Pirina and Saonel: 37,500 each
Stronger than Piccolo, but weaker than Gohan.

Cabba: 14
~ SSJ: 700
~ SSJ2: 1,400

Caulifla: 15
~ SSJ: 750
~ SSJ Grade 2: 937.5
~ SSJ Grade 3: 1,250
~ SSJ2: 1,500
Goku's equal, except in skill apparently.

Kale: 18
~ SSJ: 900
~ LSSJ: 9,000
~ SSJ2: 18,000
Initially considered really powerful in the ToP, but in reality she can't even beat SSJG Goku with Caulifla's help.

Kefla: 75,000
~ SSJ: 3,750,000
~ SSJ2: 7,500,000
Okay, this is one fusion that gets a normal SSJ boost. Kefla blitzes SSJG Goku in base, rivals the Genki-Dama as a SSJ and is stronger than UI Omen as a SSJ2.

SSJB Goku (Vs Kefla): 150,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 3,000,000
Whis points out Goku's Ki is raising as he fights Kefla. While this could just be about him raising his Ki, the way he and Kefla fought evenly and he forced her to go SSJ2 suggets she's fairly strong.

Hakaishin Toppo: 3,000,000
SSJBE Vegeta: 3,000,000
Equals, Vegeta had to use every centimeter of his power to blow Toppo away. Vegeta also seems to rival Goku's new Kaio-Ken x20 power.

UI Goku: 15,000,000

Jiren (Full power): 12,000,000
~ Beyond limits: 14,400,000

Beerus: 10,000,000

Broly

Goku/Vegeta: 30
~ SSJ: 1,500
~ SSJG: 60,000
~ SSJB: 150,000

Broly: 30
~ Vs SSJ Vegeta: 1,500
~ Full power: 12,000
~ Ikari: 120,000
~ LSSJ: 6,000,000
~ LSSJ (Peak): 15,000,000
Initially, Broly is losing to base Vegeta, but he slowly gets the hang of it and ends up tanking SSJ Vegeta's punch. When he taps into his Oozaru power, Broly tanks SSJG Vegeta but gets beaten by SSJB Goku. His LSSJ forces even Gogeta to go SSJ, and at his peak he's the strongest guy Goku ever faced.

Gogeta: 2,400,000
~ SSJ: 6,000,000
~ SSJB: 30,000,000

Beerus (Goku's expectations): 15,000,000
Goku says Broly may be stronger than Beerus after saying. But since Jiren is stronger than all Hakaishins, Goku must have overestimated Beerus' power.

[Noah]

... Goku says Broly may be stronger than Beerus after saying. But since Jiren is stronger than all Hakaishins, Goku must have overestimated Beerus' power.

Did he said that on the movie? Also I don't think the statement of Jiren being stronger than all GoDs is true, maybe the vast majority... but remember no one else had ever seen the full extend of Beerus power, so I believe he's not stronger than him.