HybridSaiyan wrote:
But fans surely must realize since Super, power scaling has been nothing but pure nonsense.
I'm grateful to Toyotarō for at least tying to make things more clearer in the manga.
Tien, Krillin, 17, 18 and Piccolo were clearly outmatched by the Buu saga, and now they're about
to enter a god tournament? Unless these fighters are weak or the heros get completely outmatched, the power scalings are just going to get worse n' worse.
Not all of them.
To make sense out of things, I believe that not everyone will be God tier. Even in U6 Arc i think that only Hit was God tier. Maybe i'm wrong, but when Piccolo can keep up with Frost, who keept up with SSJ Goku either not everyone is at God tier or power-scale is dead.
See, I think i'm the only one that thinks Piccolo should be above Frost. Never seen the logic in another universe Frieza being so much stronger. : |
To be fair he's from a different universe and we don't know if he trained or not( Goku supports otherwise, saying him to train to become stronger)
If Piccolo's makankosappo was successful he would have won... If only...
GT wasn't that bad
DBZ Macky wrote:
RehBeh wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
He is, its just that no one holds him in high esteem, even in-universe.
He must feel awful. Being a God and no one respects him. Just sad.
And Zamasu thought he had it bad. Fuckin' edgy Kaios thinking about "Justice" and shit just because they got strong by chance.
Bullza wrote:Didn't they say Goku was burning through stamina fast from having to predict dozens of attacks in an instant?
Dragon Ball Super Chapter 13 wrote:Champa: "Hey, Vados!"
Champa: "This isn't getting us anywhere!!"
Vados: "Please do not worry, my lord."
Champa: "What?"
Vados: "Hit doesn't lose that much energy from his Time Skipping."
Vados: "Goku, on the other hand, seems to be tired out from it."
Vados: "At this rate, it will be that Saiyan who will run out of energy first..."
Hit: "Aren't you slowing down a bit?"
Hit: "Where is the energy you showed me earlier?"
Goku: "Dammit...! Guess it's not going to be easy..."
Goku: "At this rate, I'll be too worn out to continue..."
Beerus: "Dammit!!! Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his!"
Beerus: "The heck is Time Skipping anyways? Stop cheating!"
Whis: "..."
Goku: "I've got no choice..."
Goku: "HAAAAAAAA!!!!"
RehBeh wrote:To make sense out of things, I believe that not everyone will be God tier. Even in U6 Arc i think that only Hit was God tier. Maybe i'm wrong, but when Piccolo can keep up with Frost, who keept up with SSJ Goku either not everyone is at God tier or power-scale is dead.
Piccolo was matched against a vitality-drained Frost. There's not much anyone could say other than a fresh variation of Frost would achieve victory without cheating.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:This makes no sense because SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit, if 10% of SSBlue Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta who is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku who is far above SSJ Goku, this means Hit's timeskip was working on someone dozens of times stronger than him which totally contradicts Whis's statement that it only works on people near or below his level.
This only shows that 10% SSB Vegeta was stronger than Hit, but not strong enough to overcome Tokitobashi. Whis didn't elaborate on how close they have to be, and this shows that the gap can be very big. The fact that Hit was heavily holding back & was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta at full power was probably a big plus as well, since SSB Goku could overcome FP Hit's Tokitobashi with a smaller gap in power.
But there is no other way around it. Goku didn't have his stamina drained against Zamasu, and neither did both Goku & Vegeta have a stamina drain when they were training with Whis in the beginning of Champa arc. So, either Vegeta got brain damage, or your interpretation of Whis' line is wrong.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:This makes no sense because SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit, if 10% of SSBlue Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta who is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku who is far above SSJ Goku, this means Hit's timeskip was working on someone dozens of times stronger than him which totally contradicts Whis's statement that it only works on people near or below his level.
This only shows that 10% SSB Vegeta was stronger than Hit, but not strong enough to overcome Tokitobashi. Whis didn't elaborate on how close they have to be, and this shows that the gap can be very big. The fact that Hit was heavily holding back & was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta at full power was probably a big plus as well, since SSB Goku could overcome FP Hit's Tokitobashi with a smaller gap in power.
But there is no other way around it. Goku didn't have his stamina drained against Zamasu, and neither did both Goku & Vegeta have a stamina drain when they were training with Whis in the beginning of Champa arc. So, either Vegeta got brain damage, or your interpretation of Whis' line is wrong.
Just read the VIZ translation, I don't see where it actually says SSJ Goku IS ACTUALLY stronger than Hit as a SSJ. I see he saying that it's supposed to be but nothing definitive like we've been saying on this forum.
Further two panels later it shows Hit was hiding his true energy by a substantial amount. So SSG only really surpassed suppressed Hit.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:This makes no sense because SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit, if 10% of SSBlue Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta who is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku who is far above SSJ Goku, this means Hit's timeskip was working on someone dozens of times stronger than him which totally contradicts Whis's statement that it only works on people near or below his level.
This only shows that 10% SSB Vegeta was stronger than Hit, but not strong enough to overcome Tokitobashi. Whis didn't elaborate on how close they have to be, and this shows that the gap can be very big. The fact that Hit was heavily holding back & was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta at full power was probably a big plus as well, since SSB Goku could overcome FP Hit's Tokitobashi with a smaller gap in power.
But there is no other way around it. Goku didn't have his stamina drained against Zamasu, and neither did both Goku & Vegeta have a stamina drain when they were training with Whis in the beginning of Champa arc. So, either Vegeta got brain damage, or your interpretation of Whis' line is wrong.
Just read the VIZ translation, I don't see where it actually says SSJ Goku IS ACTUALLY stronger than Hit as a SSJ. I see he saying that it's supposed to be but nothing definitive like we've been saying on this forum.
Further two panels later it shows Hit was hiding his true energy by a substantial amount. So SSG only really surpassed suppressed Hit.
Beerus: "Dammit!!! Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is Time Skipping anyways? Stop cheating!"
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Beerus: "Dammit!!! Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is Time Skipping anyways? Stop cheating!"
I still don't know what's going on with that scene, Whis says Time Skip only works on inferior or equal opponents but Beerus seems to think Goku's stronger than him....
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Beerus: "Dammit!!! Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is Time Skipping anyways? Stop cheating!"
I still don't know what's going on with that scene, Whis says Time Skip only works on inferior or equal opponents but Beerus seems to think Goku's stronger than him....
I still don't know what's going on with that scene, Whis says Time Skip only works on inferior or equal opponents but Beerus seems to think Goku's stronger than him....
Whis said opponents "near" Hit.
Yes but Beerus' comment seems to suggest Goku's current power is stronger so what's going on? Did Blue REALLY smash Vegeta's energy reserves so much that he's weaker than Super Saiyan Goku? Whis certainly doesn't seem to think so in his later explanation of Time Skip, saying that Goku's only surpassed Hit with SSGod.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
I still don't know what's going on with that scene, Whis says Time Skip only works on inferior or equal opponents but Beerus seems to think Goku's stronger than him....
Whis said opponents "near" Hit.
But the key work here is Supposed to, the which means it clearly isn't. This wouldn't exactly be the first time Beerus was completely wrong or miscalculated. The pages after even go into details about explaining Vegeta compared to SSG. There's literally nothing in the manga that as says SSJ IS STRONGER than Hit. I don't even understand where this idea is coming from. If you look at the quote out of context I guess you might think that but I manga it's clear Beerus thought Goku would be stronger and he isn't. The statement is literally wrong and it says as much with the qualifier "supposed"
ekrolo2 wrote:
I still don't know what's going on with that scene, Whis says Time Skip only works on inferior or equal opponents but Beerus seems to think Goku's stronger than him....
Whis said opponents "near" Hit.
Yes but Beerus' comment seems to suggest Goku's current power is stronger so what's going on? Did Blue REALLY smash Vegeta's energy reserves so much that he's weaker than Super Saiyan Goku? Whis certainly doesn't seem to think so in his later explanation of Time Skip, saying that Goku's only surpassed Hit with SSGod.
Near also implies opponents that are only slightly stronger, which is what seems to be implied here. But yes, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at 10% is weaker than SSJ Goku, which makes Blue a joke.
ekrolo2 wrote:
I still don't know what's going on with that scene, Whis says Time Skip only works on inferior or equal opponents but Beerus seems to think Goku's stronger than him....
Whis said opponents "near" Hit.
Yes but Beerus' comment seems to suggest Goku's current power is stronger so what's going on? Did Blue REALLY smash Vegeta's energy reserves so much that he's weaker than Super Saiyan Goku? Whis certainly doesn't seem to think so in his later explanation of Time Skip, saying that Goku's only surpassed Hit with SSGod.
Well no Beerus comment in context implies he thought Goku should be stronger but he clearly isn't as a SSJ.
Doctor. wrote:But yes, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at 10% is weaker than SSJ Goku, which makes Blue a joke.
According to who? If that was the case, why didn't Vegeta use SS or SS2?
TheMikado wrote:Well no Beerus comment in context implies he thought Goku should be stronger but he clearly isn't as a SSJ.
No, Beerus means that Goku should be strongest, yet he doesn't win the fight.
Last edited by DBZGTKOSDH on Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
The justication for SSJ being stronger than Hit is so weird. Beerus clearly says "supposed to" in the context that's it's not. Like saying you're supposed to be here on time when you clearly and obviously aren't. It's ambiguous at best and far from definitive, but it's clear the original intention is to show that SSJ Goku IS NOT stronger than Hit within the context of the scene.
Doctor. wrote:But yes, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at 10% is weaker than SSJ Goku, which makes Blue a joke.
According to who? If that was the case, why didn't Vegeta use SS or SS2?
I think the intent is that all of Vegeta's "stats" were dropped by Blue, meaning he needed to use his strongest transformation just to get to SS Goku's level.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Doctor. wrote:But yes, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at 10% is weaker than SSJ Goku, which makes Blue a joke.
According to who? If that was the case, why didn't Vegeta use SS or SS2?
TheMikado wrote:Well no Beerus comment in context implies he thought Goku should be stronger but he clearly isn't as a SSJ.
No, Beerus means that Goku should be strongest, yet he doesn't win the fight.
But it doesn't, otherwise he would have broken the time skip. The point is that Goku is NOT stronger than Hit when Beerus thought he would be. There is no definitive statement in the manga stating that SSJ Goku IS STRONGER than Hit.
Doesn't Whis say that Goku closed the gap between him and Hit, when he's explaining Hit's ability to Beerus? Isn't that a direct statement that SSJ Goku was weaker than Hit?
LightBing wrote:Doesn't Whis say that Goku closed the gap between him and Hit, when he's explaining Hit's ability to Beerus? Isn't that a direct statement that SSJ Goku was weaker than Hit?
That's where the confusion comes from, Beerus seems to think SS Goku is stronger than Hit but their actual performance states otherwise then Whis says SSGod Goku is stronger than Hit. So, either Blue Vegeta at far less than 10% is weaker than SS Goku or Beerus is a moron.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
LightBing wrote:Doesn't Whis say that Goku closed the gap between him and Hit, when he's explaining Hit's ability to Beerus? Isn't that a direct statement that SSJ Goku was weaker than Hit?
He stated he's far stronger, but yes literally every statement in that chapter, WHEN USED IN CONTEXT, implies SSJ is weaker than Hit.
LightBing wrote:Doesn't Whis say that Goku closed the gap between him and Hit, when he's explaining Hit's ability to Beerus? Isn't that a direct statement that SSJ Goku was weaker than Hit?
That's where the confusion comes from, Beerus seems to think SS Goku is stronger than Hit but their actual performance states otherwise then Whis says SSGod Goku is stronger than Hit. So, either Blue Vegeta at far less than 10% is weaker than SS Goku or Beerus is a moron.
But we know Beerus is a moron who's consistently wrong about things. Remember the time travel BS. He's clearly shocked that Goku isn't stronger than Hit like he thought.
Hugo Boss wrote:
I think Black explains why fighting Goku in person is important to his development. It's even more clear when he returns to the future. It's not about SS2 Goku being stronger than SS2 Trunks, this is not the point. Goku knew from the start that Black was at least on par with his SS3 and Black knew Goku had SSB, but they didn't use much more of their power because Black had a time limit. If they had more time, they would probably fight in a higher level.
I don't know why you think it is common sense to assume Cabba was weaker than he should be. He didn't look all that bad when he calmed down. He even had energy to pull a second Super Saiyan transformation and controlled it just fine. Gohan didn't have such ease. This is completely up to you to demonstrate, if you want to be so adamant about it. I honestly don't mind.
Black planned to take his time and fight Goku. Him being sucked back to the past wasn't his plan. Even then, he was still impressed by Goku's power, which makes little sense if Goku was only up to par with Trunks since he wrecked that level several times.
It's not using common sense, that is called bias since you don't want to believe that Cabba was that strong. Him having the energy to transform twice doesn't mean he was at full strength.
I just don't see why Black being delighted about fighting Goku means that Goku must be fighting at a level greater than Trunks'. It would be a fair assumption if Trunks didn't prove he was more than a match for SS2 Goku to make him use SS3. Besides, none were serious after all. Black wasn't in a hurry to stomp Goku and Goku hided SS3 from him.
You will only need a better argument than "common sense" if you want to support your facts. If Cabba's power was weakened because of the damage his body took before, this was not clear in the scene. Not even a single line about it. Also, he didn't pass me that impression. His fighting spirit was greater than before.
