Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Everything points towards SSJ being weaker.
At the start of the fight Hit advices SSJ Goku to go Blue and since Hit shits his pants when he sees SSJG power, he thought that Blue's actual power was what Vegeta used against him. Confirming 10% Blue is better than SSJ.

So either Toyotarõ wants us to think Beerus is incompetent, note that Whis has this (...) while Beerus says the infamous line or Toyotarõ messed up. Both scenarios more likely, unless one chooses to take that one line and ignore the rest of the chapter.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But yes, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at 10% is weaker than SSJ Goku, which makes Blue a joke.

According to who? If that was the case, why didn't Vegeta use SS or SS2?

Well no Beerus comment in context implies he thought Goku should be stronger but he clearly isn't as a SSJ.

No, Beerus means that Goku should be strongest, yet he doesn't win the fight.

But it doesn't, otherwise he would have broken the time skip. The point is that Goku is NOT stronger than Hit when Beerus thought he would be. There is no definitive statement in the manga stating that SSJ Goku IS STRONGER than Hit.

You have completely misunderstood what Beerus is saying. Beerus isn't saying "Why isn't Goku stronger?!", he is saying "Why isn't Goku winning, he should be stronger than Hit so he should be winning!!". Beerus sees that Goku is stronger than Hit, yet Hit can fight evenly with Goku. That's why Beerus says that Goku should be stronger, because he is stronger, yet he isn't winning.

[TheMikado]

According to who? If that was the case, why didn't Vegeta use SS or SS2?


No, Beerus means that Goku should be strongest, yet he doesn't win the fight.

But it doesn't, otherwise he would have broken the time skip. The point is that Goku is NOT stronger than Hit when Beerus thought he would be. There is no definitive statement in the manga stating that SSJ Goku IS STRONGER than Hit.

You have completely misunderstood what Beerus is saying. Beerus isn't saying "Why isn't Goku stronger?!", he is saying "Why isn't Goku winning, he should be stronger than Hit so he should be winning!!". Beerus sees that Goku is stronger than Hit, yet Hit can fight evenly with Goku. That's why Beerus says that Goku should be stronger, because he is stronger, yet he isn't winning.

See post above you. I would also suggest rereading the chapter in its entirety. No where in the chapter is it stated or implied Goku is stronger than Hit as a SSJ, there's no mid understanding this. You're taking translated single sentence phrase which can be considered ambiguous at best and making a case out of it while ignoring the context of the entire chapter which supports the claim that SSJ is below Hit.

If a mod or Herms would be able to translate this one line for us from the original source that would be very helpful because this is literally the only evidence to even ambiguously suggest that SSJ Goku is more powerful than Hit.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

See post above you. I would also suggest rereading the chapter in its entirety. No where in the chapter is it stated or implied Goku is stronger than Hit as a SSJ, there's no mid understanding this. You're taking translated single sentence phrase which can be considered ambiguous at best and making a case out of it while ignoring the context of the entire chapter which supports the claim that SSJ is below Hit.

If a mod or Herms would be able to translate this one line for us from the original source that would be very helpful because this is literally the only evidence to even ambiguously suggest that SSJ Goku is more powerful than Hit.

I've read your posts, I've read the whole chapter. SS Goku is stronger than Hit, yet Hit can match Goku with his Tokitobashi, which forces Goku to predict all of Hit's next moves.

[Hugo Boss]

If SS Goku is stronger than Hit, then wouldn't Hit be weaker than Magetta? Because SS Vegeta only defeated Magetta by destroying his fighting spirit. Magetta was stronger than him.

[emperior]

If SS Goku is stronger than Hit, then wouldn't Hit be weaker than Magetta? Because SS Vegeta only defeated Magetta by destroying his fighting spirit. Magetta was stronger than him.

Magetta is physically stronger than Hit in the manga. But I think Hit's time skip would still work on him, even though I don't think Hit can beat him in the manga without insulting him.

[LightBing]

If SS Goku is stronger than Hit, then wouldn't Hit be weaker than Magetta? Because SS Vegeta only defeated Magetta by destroying his fighting spirit. Magetta was stronger than him.

Looking at the manga Magetta's isn't that strong, his trait is incredible resistance. Look at how Vegeta started each fight, matching his opponent power. He went SSJ against Frost, base against both Magetta and Cabba and SSJB against Hit.
Meaning Magetta isn't that strong.

[RehBeh]

To make sense out of things, I believe that not everyone will be God tier. Even in U6 Arc i think that only Hit was God tier. Maybe i'm wrong, but when Piccolo can keep up with Frost, who keept up with SSJ Goku either not everyone is at God tier or power-scale is dead.

Piccolo was matched against a vitality-drained Frost. There's not much anyone could say other than a fresh variation of Frost would achieve victory without cheating.

He wasn't vitality drained. He could still fight. Although a fresh variation of him as you said, would win against Piccolo without much trouble.

[RehBeh]

If SS Goku is stronger than Hit, then wouldn't Hit be weaker than Magetta? Because SS Vegeta only defeated Magetta by destroying his fighting spirit. Magetta was stronger than him.

Looking at the manga Magetta's isn't that strong, his trait is incredible resistance. Look at how Vegeta started each fight, matching his opponent power. He went SSJ against Frost, base against both Magetta and Cabba and SSJB against Hit.
Meaning Magetta isn't that strong.

Vegeta was SSJ against Magetta.

[HeroR]

I just don't see why Black being delighted about fighting Goku means that Goku must be fighting at a level greater than Trunks'. It would be a fair assumption if Trunks didn't prove he was more than a match for SS2 Goku to make him use SS3. Besides, none were serious after all. Black wasn't in a hurry to stomp Goku and Goku hided SS3 from him.

You will only need a better argument than "common sense" if you want to support your facts. If Cabba's power was weakened because of the damage his body took before, this was not clear in the scene. Not even a single line about it. Also, he didn't pass me that impression. His fighting spirit was greater than before.

Trunks didn't make Goku Super Saiyan 3. He transformed to show off. Trunks' attacks didn't even hurt Goku. There was no match.

You're the one who said it's common sense that Cabba wouldn't be that strong. And the anime made it clear that Cabba was hurt since he nearly lost consciousness and was about to give up.

[LightBing]

If SS Goku is stronger than Hit, then wouldn't Hit be weaker than Magetta? Because SS Vegeta only defeated Magetta by destroying his fighting spirit. Magetta was stronger than him.

Looking at the manga Magetta's isn't that strong, his trait is incredible resistance. Look at how Vegeta started each fight, matching his opponent power. He went SSJ against Frost, base against both Magetta and Cabba and SSJB against Hit.
Meaning Magetta isn't that strong.

Vegeta was SSJ against Magetta.

He started in base. Only used SSJ because Magetta was too heavy when he was trying to lift him.

[buutenks]

Seems there is a big difference in power between the manga and anime. And i prefer the anime tbh. Manga makes them way to weak. I like how Mageta forced Vegeta to give his all as a ssj and only won due to insulting Magetta. And i like how Hit is so OP.

[HybridSaiyan]

Seems there is a big difference in power between the manga and anime. And i prefer the anime tbh. Manga makes them way to weak. I like how Mageta forced Vegeta to give his all as a ssj and only won due to insulting Magetta. And i like how Hit is so OP.

But even so, Frieza saga fights portrayed a larger power scale than the fights in Super so does it matter?

SSJ Goku at the Frieza saga shows stronger power and intelligence than Goku in Super.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The gap between SSBlue Vegeta (Drained) and SSJ Goku has to be smaller than the gap between SSGod and SSBlue since Hit's full power timeskip would have stopped SSGod Goku, but failed against SSBlue Goku.

Also, the fact that Hit powers up from SSJ Goku's level to SSGod Goku's level should also show the gap isn't that big, right? He wasn't used to that power at all and hadn't use it a long time, yet he was still able to power up and match SSGod Goku. Either this means the gap isn't that large or Hit just uses less than 1% of his power all the time, which would certainly cause him to become much weaker over time since in this series characters lose tons of power when don't do any strenuous training.

[Simere]

To those who think SSJ Goku wasn't near Hit's power level: why do you think they wasted time explaining Goku's stamina issue dealing with the Time Skip as the the reason he'd lose, if in fact the reason he'd lose is that he's just plain weaker?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The gap between SSBlue Vegeta (Drained) and SSJ Goku has to be smaller than the gap between SSGod and SSBlue since Hit's full power timeskip would have stopped SSGod Goku, but failed against SSBlue Goku.

The gap doesn't have to be the same. Hit was suppressed against SS Goku, while at full power he was unstable as he couldn't maintain his full power for more than a minute. Tokitobashi was probably affected by these factors.

[Bullza]

New episode didn't particularly tell us too much.

I suppose you could say Goku was still weaker than Beerus but that's not really surprising. He went Super Saiyan to stop Whis' blast but there's nothing to take from that really.

The opening was the main part. Gohan looks to regain his Mystic form which would naturally mean that he was not Mystic previously nor was he as strong as his Mystic self back when he went Super Saiyan and fought evenly with Goku which could possibly lean more towards their being a retcon if Base Goku would be tens of times weaker than Mystic Gohan.

That one alien in the opening who looked like a buff version of the referee in the U6 saga...is that the guy that was in the hooded cloak? Goku used Super Saiyan Blue against him so he's gonna be strong if not one of the strongest.

And also at 1:15 of the opening Goku does something that now has people wondering if it's a new form.

[buutenks]

Seems there is a big difference in power between the manga and anime. And i prefer the anime tbh. Manga makes them way to weak. I like how Mageta forced Vegeta to give his all as a ssj and only won due to insulting Magetta. And i like how Hit is so OP.

But even so, Frieza saga fights portrayed a larger power scale than the fights in Super so does it matter?

What? I meant that in the anime Hit was stronger than ssj blue, while in the manga he was not.

SSJ Goku at the Frieza saga shows stronger power and intelligence than Goku in Super.

Oh really now, where did u see this?Did u miss the destroy universe part which also involved Goku?

[Bullza]

Oh and of course if Gohan only reobtains his Mystic power once again in this saga then obviously that would mean he didn't have that power when he fought against Piccolo.

Which would of course mean that Piccolo wasn't as strong as a load of people kept making him out to be for so long. He'd definitely not be anyway near as strong as Base Goku under the impression that he's as strong as Super Saiyan God.

If people still insist that the Base Saiyans are weaker than Piccolo because of Vegeta need to turn Super Saiyan against Frost then I don't know how you'd explain Goku still being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

But yeah all it would need is some comment about how Gohan had got back the power that he used to have in the Buu saga and then prove somehow to be stronger than Goku for sure to reinforce this retcon theory.

[HeroR]

New episode didn't particularly tell us too much.

I suppose you could say Goku was still weaker than Beerus but that's not really surprising. He went Super Saiyan to stop Whis' blast but there's nothing to take from that really.

The opening was the main part. Gohan looks to regain his Mystic form which would naturally mean that he was not Mystic previously nor was he as strong as his Mystic self back when he went Super Saiyan and fought evenly with Goku which could possibly lean more towards their being a retcon if Base Goku would be tens of times weaker than Mystic Gohan.

That one alien in the opening who looked like a buff version of the referee in the U6 saga...is that the guy that was in the hooded cloak? Goku used Super Saiyan Blue against him so he's gonna be strong if not one of the strongest.

And also at 1:15 of the opening Goku does something that now has people wondering if it's a new form.

You're skipping the part where Beerus hit Goku to 'punished' him, which only knocked the air out of Goku. Beerus only had to lightly tapped Super Saiyan 3 Goku to floor him and he wasn't half as serious.