Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Okay, how the fuck are they going to beat Black in the manga? Because apparently his multipliers are just as high as the heroes', so he should be thousands of times stronger than them. Even Vegetto wouldn't stand a chance. Also, SSJ2 Vegeta apparently has a several thousand fold multiplier now.

You should read my list for a real doozie for how absurdly big the numbers are now xD

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

Does anyone have a complete list of how strong everyone is? At least, a few ideas?

[ekrolo2]

Does anyone have a complete list of how strong everyone is? At least, a few ideas?

You can check mine out in the PL thread in fan works if you want.

[pacz360]

Nah, the conclusions that you're drawing are nonsense. The fact that Goku used SSJG means that he absorbed the power, otherwise he wouldn't be able to use it. We don't need an explicit statement saying that he did. Saiyan Beyond God is nothing but their base form after obtaining the power of god. It's a state of being, not a transformation. Every Saiyan that obtains god power would be a "Saiyan Beyond God" by default.

There is no indication that the powescales differ between the anime and manga. That notion is completely made up by the fans and reeks of desperation. Why are the fans so desperate for the anime and manga to differ? I don't know. The amount of mental gymnastics you need to come to these conclusions isn't something that I can even fathom.



Rose and Blue are the same form. That doesn't change in the anime. Rose Black is on the same general tier as Blue Goku and Vegeta despite having a stronger base form. That isn't hard to understand. Rose surpassing SSJG isn't relevant, nor does it imply whatever you're trying to claim.

Are you joking? The anime and manga already started to majorly differ when Goku used Kaioken x10 in the anime whereas he didn't in the manga. Also, he can no longer use SSGod in the anime.

SSRose surpassing SSGod is relevant because it confirms its multiplier is at the very least over 1/10th of SSBlue's and thus Black should be much stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Don't try to use the anime to justify things in the manga, or I suppose you believe Base Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in the manga as well.

Anime Goku used SSB Kaioken and manga Goku didn't. So what?

Anime Goku can't use SSJG according to who? Definitely not any of the characters.
Where are people getting these ideas from? He has the same god power that enabled SSJG in the first place, yet can't use the form? He used SSJG in the movie after absorbing it's power.
Goku never used ssjgod in the anime unlike the manga he absorbed the power.
If goku could used it he would done that in the tournament or even the zamasu arc so you wrong
Hit is much stronger in the anime since he fought a kkx10 ssjb goku where in the manga he could barely do shit to ssjb goku.
There's tons of difference in the anime and manga in terms of powerscale.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

Does anyone have a complete list of how strong everyone is? At least, a few ideas?

You can check mine out in the PL thread in fan works if you want.

How do I see it? Sorry, I don't know the site that well

[ekrolo2]

Does anyone have a complete list of how strong everyone is? At least, a few ideas?

You can check mine out in the PL thread in fan works if you want.

How do I see it? Sorry, I don't know the site that well

Just go to this link and scroll down.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14197&start=9060

[Bullza]

Base form Gohan was stronger than Piccolo who is at least stronger than Super Vegeta, but a nice margin. He went Super Saiyan which is a 50x multiplier. How high do you have Ultimate Gohan?

Oh considerably more than just being around 50 times as strong as Piccolo. I have Mystic Gohan as being around 200 times as strong as Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga.

Super Saiyan Gohan in that saga I have as being a bit over a quarter as strong as his old Mystic Gohan self.

And even if it was classified as a transformed, Gohan would still be much stronger than his Buu Saga's self since his base form was weaker than Goku's base form, who was said to be weaker than 100% Freeza according to Beerus.

It's not a form no. The Elder Kai brought out his full potential and then went even further with it. Over time from not training that power has drastically decreased but not just vanished and that's why Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo whose stronger than Frieza who was stronger than Goku.

So even if there was a retcon Goku being on par with Gohan would still out him far above what he was at in the Buu saga.

That is a poor example since Goku couldn't lift 40 tons in his base form in the Buu Saga, yet when child he easily bench lifted a car and pushed that giant rock. And those feats in the anime have no confirmed weights.

If in the Buu saga back when he hadn't absorbed the power of God he couldn't lift 40 tons then it's pretty consistent with the manga and them being 50 times stronger as a Super Saiyan but not being able to lift 1,000 tons.

That is weak. No weight was given in the anime but obviously a watering can of that sheer size that would obviously be filled with water would weigh multiple thousand tons easy. Plus they never actually said they couldn't lift 1,000 tons in the anime because it was never brought up.

[HeroR]

Base form Gohan was stronger than Piccolo who is at least stronger than Super Vegeta, but a nice margin. He went Super Saiyan which is a 50x multiplier. How high do you have Ultimate Gohan?

Oh considerably more than just being around 50 times as strong as Piccolo. I have Mystic Gohan as being around 200 times as strong as Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga.

Super Saiyan Gohan in that saga I have as being a bit over a quarter as strong as his old Mystic Gohan self.

And even if it was classified as a transformed, Gohan would still be much stronger than his Buu Saga's self since his base form was weaker than Goku's base form, who was said to be weaker than 100% Freeza according to Beerus.

It's not a form no. The Elder Kai brought out his full potential and then went even further with it. Over time from not training that power has drastically decreased but not just vanished and that's why Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo whose stronger than Frieza who was stronger than Goku.

So even if there was a retcon Goku being on par with Gohan would still out him far above what he was at in the Buu saga.

That is a poor example since Goku couldn't lift 40 tons in his base form in the Buu Saga, yet when child he easily bench lifted a car and pushed that giant rock. And those feats in the anime have no confirmed weights.

If in the Buu saga back when he hadn't absorbed the power of God he couldn't lift 40 tons then it's pretty consistent with the manga and them being 50 times stronger as a Super Saiyan but not being able to lift 1,000 tons.

That is weak. No weight was given in the anime but obviously a watering can of that sheer size that would obviously be filled with water would weigh multiple thousand tons easy. Plus they never actually said they couldn't lift 1,000 tons in the anime because it was never brought up.

Calcs that are based on nothing. I mean, anyone can pull a random number out of nowhere.

Gohan would be way, way higher than his Ultimate self from the Buu Saga since he's older and could gain back most of his Ultimate power by transforming into a Super Saiyan.

And the Buu Saga's measurements are flawed because Goku as a weakling child benched lifted a car with minimal effect, which is easily 2 tons and how heavy do you think that rock Goku pushed was when he was training with Roshi. And how heavily do think Piccolo was when he went giant and Goku flipped him? Or Goku using weights in 100x gravity.

[kinisking]

I don't think saying Goku isn't capable of lifting 40 tons is accurate. Those were attached to his limbs and he was expected to fight rather than him holding them.

[Marlowe89]

If we know that Gohan wasn't at his Buu saga peak during the RoF arc, and if there was nothing in the series suggesting that he could regain that power with Super Saiyan, the default conclusion would obviously be that he wasn't capable of tapping into that level of strength at the time.

Insisting otherwise simply because he was "older" is a complete non-argument and isn't relevant to anything at all.

[Bullza]

Calcs that are based on nothing. I mean, anyone can pull a random number out of nowhere.

Of course it's based on nothing. That's something you should have known before asking me where I place them.

Gohan would be way, way higher than his Ultimate self from the Buu Saga since he's older and could gain back most of his Ultimate power by transforming into a Super Saiyan.

Buy again I'm not talking about any Super Mystic Gohan. I'm talking about the same Mystic Gohan. If they specifically go out of their way and explain that Gohan has re-obtained the same power he had previously when he fought Buu.

Not a hypothetical version of Mystic Gohan who'd be way stronger because that's just completely speculative for now.

And the Buu Saga's measurements are flawed

That part doesn't matter. The 1,000 ton number is consistent with the 40 ton figure. It would suggest that Goku isn't particularly much stronger than he was in the Buu saga.

The movies and the anime at least originally seemed to suggest that Base Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God. In the manga he is not, he would seemingly be a tiny fraction of that strenght.

[HeroR]

If we know that Gohan wasn't at his Buu saga peak during the RoF arc, and if there was nothing in the series suggesting that he could regain that power with Super Saiyan, the default conclusion would obviously be that he wasn't capable of tapping into that level of strength at the time.

Insisting otherwise simply because he was "older" is a complete non-argument and isn't relevant to anything at all.

That isn't what I said. I said that Gohan's base form was noticeably stronger than Piccolo who, depending on how he's scaled, is probably stronger than Super Vegeta and could be within Perfect Cell's range. So, let's just say for the sake of argument Gohan was about as strong as Super Saiyan Cell Games Goku in his base form. He then goes Super Saiyan on top of that. This seems comparable to where Gohan was at during the Buu Saga since Gohan says that he couldn't reached his full power and used his Super Saiyan form to access it, although he couldn't hold it.

Meaning that if Gohan get his Ultimate form back, he should be way stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart, not just the same. And since the Old Kai's power worked on unleashed one full power and pushing it to its limits and Vegeta 'claimed' that Saiyans have no limit, Gohan's Ultimate form should have gotten strong. Also keep in mind that Gohan was 16/18 when Old Kai unlocked his power. The physical peak for a healthy human is around 25/30. Meaning that Gohan is not even in his physical prime, so he still have room to grow.

Calcs that are based on nothing. I mean, anyone can pull a random number out of nowhere.

Of course it's based on nothing. That's something you should have known before asking me where I place them.

Gohan would be way, way higher than his Ultimate self from the Buu Saga since he's older and could gain back most of his Ultimate power by transforming into a Super Saiyan.

Buy again I'm not talking about any Super Mystic Gohan. I'm talking about the same Mystic Gohan. If they specifically go out of their way and explain that Gohan has re-obtained the same power he had previously when he fought Buu.

Not a hypothetical version of Mystic Gohan who'd be way stronger because that's just completely speculative for now.

And the Buu Saga's measurements are flawed

That part doesn't matter. The 1,000 ton number is consistent with the 40 ton figure. It would suggest that Goku isn't particularly much stronger than he was in the Buu saga.

The movies and the anime at least originally seemed to suggest that Base Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God. In the manga he is not, he would seemingly be a tiny fraction of that strenght.

I don't like fan numbers since they're impossible to argued. Like the mystical Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto.

But why would Gohan be the 'same'?

It does matter because it isn't consistent with the feats Goku has shown in the past even as a child. The 40 ton statement is what is called a low scale outlier. It's like how Silver Surfer can go from taking a star exploding in his face to him jobbering to some thugs on the streets. (not that dramatic but you get the point)

For the sake of argument, let's say kid Goku had a power level of 10 based on the data books. Goku at 10 can lift a car which is about 2 tons. Let's say his maximum is 5. Fast forward to Freeza Saga Super Saiyan Goku whose power level is 150 million. If at a power level of 10 Goku could lift a max of 5, we can say he gains 5 tons for every 10. Meaning that Goku should be able to lift 75 million tons, using the scale from Freeza Saga. Granted, this is all a guess, but the point I am making is that it doesn't make sense for Kid Goku to be able to lift 2 tons fairly easily, to struggling with 40 tons when he's over 15 million time stronger.

[Marlowe89]

That isn't what I said. I said that Gohan's base form was noticeably stronger than Piccolo who, depending on how he's scaled, is probably stronger than Super Vegeta and could be within Perfect Cell's range.

That is what you said. Old Kai's ability pushed Gohan's body past its own limits, far beyond Goku's strength in fact, but there's nothing implying that he would have become vastly stronger simply by growing a few years older. There's also nothing to suggest that Piccolo was within Perfect Cell's range. This is all completely speculative and about as reliable as throwing random numbers around to assess power levels.

We can only go by what IS suggested and shown - Gohan's power was drastically reduced from what it used to be and was never said to be restored by using Super Saiyan, therefore if Gohan regains his "Ultimate" form, we have no real basis to assume that Ultimate Gohan is suddenly much stronger than he was during the Buu arc. That's just the end of it. You can start speculating whatever you want, but you need to understand that there's nothing substantial even remotely backing it up.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan accessing his Ultimate form in the intro confirms it as a separate form I suppose.

I wonder how strong he is now considering his Super Saiyan form is close to Goku's. He should be at least way stronger than current Super Saiyan 3 Goku with Ultimate.

[namekiansaiyan]

Gohan accessing his Ultimate form in the intro confirms it as a separate form I suppose.

I wonder how strong he is now considering his Super Saiyan form is close to Goku's. He should be at least way stronger than current Super Saiyan 3 Goku with Ultimate.

That is the problem, Goku's and Gohan's Super Saiyan forms should be complete different with Goku's much stronger. This better not be another case of Toriyama's dodgy power level scale benefiting some characters while damaging others.

[HeroR]

That isn't what I said. I said that Gohan's base form was noticeably stronger than Piccolo who, depending on how he's scaled, is probably stronger than Super Vegeta and could be within Perfect Cell's range.

That is what you said. Old Kai's ability pushed Gohan's body past its own limits, far beyond Goku's strength in fact, but there's nothing implying that he would have become vastly stronger simply by growing a few years older. There's also nothing to suggest that Piccolo was within Perfect Cell's range. This is all completely speculative and about as reliable as throwing random numbers around to assess power levels.

We can only go by what IS suggested and shown - Gohan's power was drastically reduced from what it used to be and was never said to be restored by using Super Saiyan, therefore if Gohan regains his "Ultimate" form, we have no real basis to assume that Ultimate Gohan is suddenly much stronger than he was during the Buu arc. That's just the end of it. You can start speculating whatever you want, but you need to understand that there's nothing substantial even remotely backing it up.

Gohan had all his power unlocked at 16. The physical prime for a normal healthy human is around 25/30 years old. Why wouldn't Gohan's hidden power increase, especially when beyond the limit doesn't mean for all that much, otherwise Gohan can literally never get stronger. He also got his power awoken by Gura at 5 and he obviously didn't get all of it since Gohan was still physically growing.

We know that Piccolo is at least stronger than Super Vegeta since when he left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber during the Cell Games, Trunks was shocked at Piccolo's power and even more shocked when Goku said that level of power stands no chance against Cell, meaning that he surpassed the level Vegeta was at and maybe even Ultra Trunks, depending if you think Ultra Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan 2 in raw power. He along with Vegeta and Trunks were also the only members still standing against the Cell Jrs. Since then, Piccolo had decades worth of training. So him being within the range of Perfect Cell isn't unimaginable.

Gohan said he's rusty and can't go Super Saiyan. However, Gohan doesn't actually suggesting he's much weaker. Only that he can't hold his full power for long.

I back my everything I said up. Whether you agree or disagree is another matter.

[Marlowe89]

I back my everything I said up. Whether you agree or disagree is another matter.

You didn't back anything up and honestly it's amusing to me that you're trying to substitute speculation for evidence. There's nothing in the series whatsoever that implicitly suggests Gohan would be multitudes stronger than he was during the Buu saga if he regained his Ultimate form or that Piccolo was at Perfect Cell's level during the RoF arc just because he surpassed Super Vegeta. You're just spitballing here and then trying to pretend it's some kind of substantial support for your viewpoint. Well, it isn't. Speculation is just speculation.

Likewise, without anything directly indicating that Gohan caught up to his Buu saga strength with Super Saiyan, we're left only with the default conclusion that he was still behind it.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan accessing his Ultimate form in the intro confirms it as a separate form I suppose.

I wonder how strong he is now considering his Super Saiyan form is close to Goku's. He should be at least way stronger than current Super Saiyan 3 Goku with Ultimate.

That is the problem, Goku's and Gohan's Super Saiyan forms should be complete different with Goku's much stronger. This better not be another case of Toriyama's dodgy power level scale benefiting some characters while damaging others.

Not really. It's just that thanks to his training with Piccolo he grew many times stronger.

[Hugo Boss]

I just don't see why Black being delighted about fighting Goku means that Goku must be fighting at a level greater than Trunks'. It would be a fair assumption if Trunks didn't prove he was more than a match for SS2 Goku to make him use SS3. Besides, none were serious after all. Black wasn't in a hurry to stomp Goku and Goku hided SS3 from him.

You will only need a better argument than "common sense" if you want to support your facts. If Cabba's power was weakened because of the damage his body took before, this was not clear in the scene. Not even a single line about it. Also, he didn't pass me that impression. His fighting spirit was greater than before.

Trunks didn't make Goku Super Saiyan 3. He transformed to show off. Trunks' attacks didn't even hurt Goku. There was no match.

You're the one who said it's common sense that Cabba wouldn't be that strong. And the anime made it clear that Cabba was hurt since he nearly lost consciousness and was about to give up.

This is not how Goku is. You are confusing him with Vegeta. Goku asked how his SS2 compares to Black and Trunks said it was still not enough. Instead of showing more of his SS2 power (if he had it), Goku went directly to SS3. Everyone was agreeing Trunks was pushing Goku back and it wasn't even his best.

Since when I applied common sense to my posts? I'm just saying there is nothing pointing to Cabba being compared to a Super Saiyan God or that his power was weaker than it should be. If you can provide evidence, then it's okay. Just don't repeat the same talking about Cabba being in the edge of losing cousciousness, this is not evidence. This is a single element that could be used to justify why his power would be weakened, but in fact none of the actions that follow his transformation point to that getting in his way, so it probably didn't matter.

I don't think I have more to say. If you think what I said is bullshit, you are on your right. I will respect it and go on.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Hit only has a better time skip, not more power and even if he did, that doesn't say anything about the way that Goku and Vegeta's god power operates.

Nah, sounds like reaching and you're wrong on that assertion. Goku stating that he doesn't feel weaker doesn't have to mean that SSJ Goku=SSJG Goku. His state of being didn't change, so he didn't feel that he lost any power. He still had godly essence.
Goku absorbed SSJG and transformed into it. Period, end of story. Absorbing the form doesn't magically lock it away forever.

Rose in the anime is the same form as SSB, which means that it surpasses SSJG. The logic being used here makes zero sense and sounds like reaching. Black is stated to only be a match to Goku and Vegeta's strength with it. That's all that matters.

I find it hilarious that you say I'm reaching and then immediately follow it up with Black only being a match for Goku and Vegeta with it. Black was already stronger than SSBlue Vegeta with SSJ/SSJ2, he was thrashing him easily. Why would he then use SSRose if it actually makes him weaker? Unless it only gave him a 5-10% boost over his SSJ, Goku and Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance even with a team effort.