Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Zamasu55]

There isn't anything supporting the existence of the 2 base theory, so it's moot. It doesn't matter if it "explains" it. It doesn't exist.

Rose Black was on the same general level as Blue Goku and Vegeta despite having a base form hundreds of times stronger. SSJR multiplier=/=SSB multiplier.

Mhhh.
So, if what you're saying is true...
Frost in his assault form was pretty much even with Base Goku, who needed to go Ssj to overcome the Universe 6 fighter.
Since Base Goku, or maybe I should call him Beyond God Goku, a couple of days before, was as strong as Final form Frieza... that implies Frost (assault form) > Ssj God Goku?
K then.
And I suppose Piccolo went from being weaker than Base Gohan to be god-tier, of course.

[HeroR]

I back my everything I said up. Whether you agree or disagree is another matter.

You didn't back anything up and honestly it's amusing to me that you're trying to substitute speculation for evidence. There's nothing in the series whatsoever that implicitly suggests Gohan would be multitudes stronger than he was during the Buu saga if he regained his Ultimate form or that Piccolo was at Perfect Cell's level during the RoF arc just because he surpassed Super Vegeta. You're just spitballing here and then trying to pretend it's some kind of substantial support for your viewpoint. Well, it isn't. Speculation is just speculation.

Likewise, without anything directly indicating that Gohan caught up to his Buu saga strength with Super Saiyan, we're left only with the default conclusion that he was still behind it.

Ah, yes I did. I gave a clear reason why I put Piccolo around Perfect Cell's level using statements from the Cell Games and guessing how he may have grown in the last decade. It is also factually true that a healthy human doesn't reach their physical peak until 25/30, so a 16 years old Gohan wouldn't be his physical peak when Old Kai unlocked his power, the same that Gura may have unlocked everything for five years old Gohan, but Gohan still had a lot of room to grow since he was a kid.

I didn't say Gohan 'is multitudes stronger than he was during the Buu Saga', so you can stop right there. I say he should be multitudes stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart if he regains 'Ultimate' since his base form is already much stronger than Piccolo's and he can go Super Saiyan.

Nothing in the show suggest that Gohan was far behind his Ultimate form. In fact, all text implied that he was still within that range, but he couldn't hold the power for long.

This is not how Goku is. You are confusing him with Vegeta. Goku asked how his SS2 compares to Black and Trunks said it was still not enough. Instead of showing more of his SS2 power (if he had it), Goku went directly to SS3. Everyone was agreeing Trunks was pushing Goku back and it wasn't even his best.

Since when I applied common sense to my posts? I'm just saying there is nothing pointing to Cabba being compared to a Super Saiyan God or that his power was weaker than it should be. If you can provide evidence, then it's okay. Just don't repeat the same talking about Cabba being in the edge of losing cousciousness, this is not evidence. This is a single element that could be used to justify why his power would be weakened, but in fact none of the actions that follow his transformation point to that getting in his way, so it probably didn't matter.

I don't think I have more to say. If you think what I said is bullshit, you are on your right. I will respect it and go on.

What does Goku being like Vegeta have to do with anything? If anything, you just proved that Goku only went Super Saiyan 3 to show how his power compared to Black, not to counter Super Saiyan 2 Trunks who literally did crap to him. And only Present Trunks said that Goku was being pushed back. Vegeta said crap, Whis said nothing, and Beerus just said Trunks was pretty good. So who is 'everyone'?

If Goku's base form is as strong as Super Saiyan God then naturally Cabba would be as well. So, being nearly knocked out isn't enough evident for you, okay whatever, not much I can tell you. And it does matter since Vegeta's own words were Cabba was his equal in base form. Unless you think Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was someone stronger than Cabba's, when no such thing has been stated, it's the same Super Saiyan form with the same multipliers.

There isn't anything supporting the existence of the 2 base theory, so it's moot. It doesn't matter if it "explains" it. It doesn't exist.

Rose Black was on the same general level as Blue Goku and Vegeta despite having a base form hundreds of times stronger. SSJR multiplier=/=SSB multiplier.

Mhhh.
So, if what you're saying is true...
Frost in his assault form was pretty much even with Base Goku, who needed to go Ssj to overcome the Universe 6 fighter.
Since Base Goku, or maybe I should call him Beyond God Goku, a couple of days before, was as strong as Final form Frieza... that implies Frost (assault form) > Ssj God Goku?
K then.
And I suppose Piccolo went from being weaker than Base Gohan to be god-tier, of course.

Piccolo only did well against Frost because Frost was hurt from fighting Goku, underestimated Piccolo (something Piccolo lampshaded), and he was trying not to kill Piccolo.

[buutenks]

While it is true that there is no in universe evidence for 2 base theory, we can't deny that nothing is explained and its very inconsistent. So the 2 base theory is trying to make sense of it, without making everyone and their mother ssg tier.

I myself go with that only ssj blue is above ssg, since it was stated in universe. While rest are all below ssg.

Base saiyans>ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj blue>Ssg>ssj1-3>base saiyans>ssj3 Gotenks.

[Nejishiki]

To make sense out of things, I believe that not everyone will be God tier. Even in U6 Arc i think that only Hit was God tier. Maybe i'm wrong, but when Piccolo can keep up with Frost, who keept up with SSJ Goku either not everyone is at God tier or power-scale is dead.

Piccolo was matched against a vitality-drained Frost. There's not much anyone could say other than a fresh variation of Frost would achieve victory without cheating.

He wasn't vitality drained. He could still fight. Although a fresh variation of him as you said, would win against Piccolo without much trouble.

I never claimed Frost was unable to fight. I said he was drained of his vitality, his strength, his energy, his stamina, etc. He was in no condition to battle at his best. That's why I believe nothing substantial can be determined from their match.

[RehBeh]

Piccolo was matched against a vitality-drained Frost. There's not much anyone could say other than a fresh variation of Frost would achieve victory without cheating.

He wasn't vitality drained. He could still fight. Although a fresh variation of him as you said, would win against Piccolo without much trouble.

I never claimed Frost was unable to fight. I said he was drained of his vitality, his strength, his energy, his stamina, etc. He was in no condition to battle at his best. That's why I believe nothing substantial can be determined from their match.

And i'm saying he wasn't in that bad position, considering that Goku said that Piccolo stood no chance and told him to drain Frost's stamina to help Vegeta when he fights him.

[Nejishiki]

I mean, if you take that moment by itself, I suppose...? Goku thought it was Piccolo's loss despite the beatdown he gave Frost, yes. When the bell sounded, Piccolo managed to match him & made him cheat to win so I think it's fair to say Frost's match with Goku affected him. To what degree it did is ambiguous.

[Hugo Boss]

This is not how Goku is. You are confusing him with Vegeta. Goku asked how his SS2 compares to Black and Trunks said it was still not enough. Instead of showing more of his SS2 power (if he had it), Goku went directly to SS3. Everyone was agreeing Trunks was pushing Goku back and it wasn't even his best.

Since when I applied common sense to my posts? I'm just saying there is nothing pointing to Cabba being compared to a Super Saiyan God or that his power was weaker than it should be. If you can provide evidence, then it's okay. Just don't repeat the same talking about Cabba being in the edge of losing cousciousness, this is not evidence. This is a single element that could be used to justify why his power would be weakened, but in fact none of the actions that follow his transformation point to that getting in his way, so it probably didn't matter.

I don't think I have more to say. If you think what I said is bullshit, you are on your right. I will respect it and go on.

What does Goku being like Vegeta have to do with anything? If anything, you just proved that Goku only went Super Saiyan 3 to show how his power compared to Black, not to counter Super Saiyan 2 Trunks who literally did crap to him. And only Present Trunks said that Goku was being pushed back. Vegeta said crap, Whis said nothing, and Beerus just said Trunks was pretty good. So who is 'everyone'?

If Goku's base form is as strong as Super Saiyan God then naturally Cabba would be as well. So, being nearly knocked out isn't enough evident for you, okay whatever, not much I can tell you. And it does matter since Vegeta's own words were Cabba was his equal in base form. Unless you think Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was someone stronger than Cabba's, when no such thing has been stated, it's the same Super Saiyan form with the same multipliers.

If one character said something and the others remained silent then he is just telling the obvious. There is no need to doubt him. And Goku never once tried to fight Trunks back as a SS2. He was testing his power, of course, but fighting Trunks at the same time. Trunks wasn't just looking at him and saying "this isn't any good", "this is close but not quite there".

Besides, Base Goku being as strong as Super Saiyan God is a theory. You should know the difference. Also, being nearly knocked out is a detail, don't try to pretend this is enough. None confirmed Cabba's power was weakened. If Cabba and Vegeta's normal forms are equal and their Super Saiyan aren't, then this is something you may argue with the ones who created the situation, there was no explanation to it. We can only speculate.

[RehBeh]

I mean, if you take that moment by itself, I suppose...? Goku thought it was Piccolo's loss despite the beatdown he gave Frost, yes. When the bell sounded, Piccolo managed to match him & made him cheat to win so I think it's fair to say Frost's match with Goku affected him. To what degree it did is ambiguous.

Frost was going to cheat anyway. He even said to Piccolo "You lost because you didn't know my fighting style, Mr. Strategist".

[Marlowe89]

Ah, yes I did. I gave a clear reason why I put Piccolo around Perfect Cell's level using statements from the Cell Games and guessing how he may have grown in the last decade. It is also factually true that a healthy human doesn't reach their physical peak until 25/30, so a 16 years old Gohan wouldn't be his physical peak when Old Kai unlocked his power, the same that Gura may have unlocked everything for five years old Gohan, but Gohan still had a lot of room to grow since he was a kid.

Take a step back and notice your word choice here. "Guessing" how Piccolo "may" have grown is an inherently speculative statement; it wouldn't provide proof of Buu saga Ultimate Gohan's strength relative to Piccolo's anyway, which could be as much as several hundred times. The physical peak thing you keep bringing up is entirely dependent on the individual and is obviously more of a statistical observation that roughly pins the median for a man's prime at approximately age 25 based on a multitude of factors and different results, but A.) that doesn't automatically preclude younger and older ages from being the prime, and B.) that too is a speculative assessment since it's relating real life factors to fictional ones.

There's no statement in Super that compares Super Saiyan Gohan in RoF to Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga, and none of these points are substantial evidence because they rely on unverified guesswork as opposed to dialogue or what's directly conveyed in the series. I can't believe I'm having to explain the difference to you, but if you can't understand beyond this post then I don't see much point in continuing this discussion.

[HeroR]

If one character said something and the others remained silent then he is just telling the obvious. There is no need to doubt him. And Goku never once tried to fight Trunks back as a SS2. He was testing his power, of course, but fighting Trunks at the same time. Trunks wasn't just looking at him and saying "this isn't any good", "this is close but not quite there".

Besides, Base Goku being as strong as Super Saiyan God is a theory. You should know the difference. Also, being nearly knocked out is a detail, don't try to pretend this is enough. None confirmed Cabba's power was weakened. If Cabba and Vegeta's normal forms are equal and their Super Saiyan aren't, then this is something you may argue with the ones who created the situation, there was no explanation to it. We can only speculate.

No, it doesn't. If Vegeta proclaimed himself the strongest in the universe and no one backs up this claim, is Vegeta the strongest in the universe. Usually when people are amazed in Dragon Ball, several people will backed it. Not just one character. And it isn't the first time someone made a statement and is proven wrong. He wasn't 'fighting' Trunks because he didn't attack. That is like saying Beerus 'fought' Goku on King Kai's planet before he attacked. Even Goku said Beerus wasn't fighting.

It is a theory that has a lot of backing looking at Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and the Breather Episodes after the Champa Saga. We have seen that people who have nearly been knocked unconscious get weaker. Just look at Frost after Goku knocked him around a little and Frost confirmed that he isn't as strong as before. So why would Cabba be any different?

Ah, yes I did. I gave a clear reason why I put Piccolo around Perfect Cell's level using statements from the Cell Games and guessing how he may have grown in the last decade. It is also factually true that a healthy human doesn't reach their physical peak until 25/30, so a 16 years old Gohan wouldn't be his physical peak when Old Kai unlocked his power, the same that Gura may have unlocked everything for five years old Gohan, but Gohan still had a lot of room to grow since he was a kid.

Take a step back and notice your word choice here. "Guessing" how Piccolo "may" have grown is an inherently speculative statement; it wouldn't provide proof of Buu saga Ultimate Gohan's strength relative to Piccolo's anyway, which could be as much as several hundred times. The physical peak thing you keep bringing up is entirely dependent on the individual and is obviously more of a statistical observation that roughly pins the median for a man's prime at approximately age 25 based on a multitude of factors and different results, but A.) that doesn't automatically preclude younger and older ages from being the prime, and B.) that too is a speculative assessment since it's relating real life factors to fictional ones.

There's no statement in Super that compares Super Saiyan Gohan in RoF to Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga, and none of these points are substantial evidence because they rely on unverified guesswork as opposed to dialogue or what's directly conveyed in the series. I can't believe I'm having to explain the difference to you, but if you can't understand beyond this post then I don't see much point in continuing this discussion.

I don't need you to explain anything to me, thank you very much. So take that attitude and take it elsewhere.

[Bullza]

But why would Gohan be the 'same'?

I'm just talking about the possibility of Gohan obtaining the Mystic power which he seemed to have lost and then they make a reference to how his power is like how it used to be back then.

You're talking about something completely different.

It does matter because it isn't consistent with the feats Goku has shown in the past even as a child.

That's just a visual thing. Toriyama specifically wrote that he couldn't lift 40 tons. If he appeared to push a large boulder as a child then it just means that it wasn't 40 tons. Yeah a similar rock in our real life world would weigh that much but apparently not in Dragon Ball.

Goku couldn't lift 40 tons. As a Super Saiyan and being 50 times stronger he seemingly could not lift 1,000 tons.

In the anime he seemingly lifted a lot more than that. It's still only a visual thing but nothing contradicts it yet plus in the manga he never lifted anything that heavy.

[HeroR]

But why would Gohan be the 'same'?

I'm just talking about the possibility of Gohan obtaining the Mystic power which he seemed to have lost and then they make a reference to how his power is like how it used to be back then.

You're talking about something completely different.

It does matter because it isn't consistent with the feats Goku has shown in the past even as a child.

That's just a visual thing. Toriyama specifically wrote that he couldn't lift 40 tons. If he appeared to push a large boulder as a child then it just means that it wasn't 40 tons. Yeah a similar rock in our real life world would weigh that much but apparently not in Dragon Ball.

Goku couldn't lift 40 tons. As a Super Saiyan and being 50 times stronger he seemingly could not lift 1,000 tons.

In the anime he seemingly lifted a lot more than that. It's still only a visual thing but nothing contradicts it yet plus in the manga he never lifted anything that heavy.

'Mystic power' is just Gohan at full power and beyond. So him maturing would make his Ultimate form stronger, not the same as it was in the Buu Saga.

That isn't a visual thing since we know a car weight a couple tons and Goku lifted it with relatively ease. Toriyama not understanding that fact doesn't make means he's right that Goku struggles with 40 tons, hence the low end feat. Like if Silver Surfer can tanks a star exploding, is it factually correct that some punk with bat can knock him out (yes, this actually happened).

And if you want to used math and 50x40 is 2,000. So at the very least, Vegeta should be able to lift 1,000 tons even if he struggles with it. And that is assuming that Vegeta's base form is literally the same as it was during the Buu Saga.

[DBZ Macky]

I've calmed down a bit and reached to a conclusion about the 2-base theory.
I think it might be the case that Toriyama and Toyotaro think Goku and Vegeta's base is still in the same realm of power, but Toei definitely don't. They've always depicted the adult Saiyans as being leagues above everyone else.

Base Goku >> SS3 Gotenks was bound to happen sometime, even more so when the Goku-wanking Toei gets to do what they want. It even fits with GT, for what that's worth.

But really, it seems far less of a stretch to assume Piccolo and Gohan jumped to Vegetto and Super Vegetto levels than assume they've become stronger than SS God Goku who is in turn, stronger than SS3 Vegetto (probably).

I'm completely okay with SS Goku being equal to Godku instead of Base Goku being equal to him. Better yet, why not just place all of Goku's forms (except Blue) between Vegetto and SS God?

My power scale for now:

SS God Goku
SS Goku
SS Gohan
SS3 Vegetto
SS Vegetto
Goku
Vegetto
SS3 Gotenks
Gohan
Piccolo

[Hugo Boss]

If one character said something and the others remained silent then he is just telling the obvious. There is no need to doubt him. And Goku never once tried to fight Trunks back as a SS2. He was testing his power, of course, but fighting Trunks at the same time. Trunks wasn't just looking at him and saying "this isn't any good", "this is close but not quite there".

Besides, Base Goku being as strong as Super Saiyan God is a theory. You should know the difference. Also, being nearly knocked out is a detail, don't try to pretend this is enough. None confirmed Cabba's power was weakened. If Cabba and Vegeta's normal forms are equal and their Super Saiyan aren't, then this is something you may argue with the ones who created the situation, there was no explanation to it. We can only speculate.

No, it doesn't. If Vegeta proclaimed himself the strongest in the universe and no one backs up this claim, is Vegeta the strongest in the universe. Usually when people are amazed in Dragon Ball, several people will backed it. Not just one character. And it isn't the first time someone made a statement and is proven wrong. He wasn't 'fighting' Trunks because he didn't attack. That is like saying Beerus 'fought' Goku on King Kai's planet before he attacked. Even Goku said Beerus wasn't fighting.

It is a theory that has a lot of backing looking at Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and the Breather Episodes after the Champa Saga. We have seen that people who have nearly been knocked unconscious get weaker. Just look at Frost after Goku knocked him around a little and Frost confirmed that he isn't as strong as before. So why would Cabba be any different?

Let's see. Vegeta proclaiming himself as the strongest was contradicted by Goku overpowering him with kaioken and later it was revealed Freeza was stronger than him, so we have reasons to doubt him. And didn't Beerus fight back when he wanted after all? Goku fought back Trunks as well, but he did it as a SS3.

A theory is just a theory. You back it with indications, but no matter how strong the indications are, they don't share the same status as evidence. And this was a good example you brought up, because Frost confirming his power decreased creates an evidence. In Frost's case, we have the indication that his power decreased because Goku beat the crap out of him, but the confirmation came when Frost said it. In Cabba's case, we have just the indication, we lack the confirmation.

[Bullza]

And if you want to used math and 50x40 is 2,000. So at the very least, Vegeta should be able to lift 1,000 tons even if he struggles with it.

Well actually if he can't lift 1,000 as a Super Saiyan then at a fiftieth of that in his Base form it'd mean he couldn't lift 20 tons.

In the scene he did lift 8 tons so it'd be able to lift between 8-19 tons so it would seem.

I think it might be the case that Toriyama and Toyotaro think Goku and Vegeta's base is still in the same realm of power, but Toei definitely don't. They've always depicted the adult Saiyans as being leagues above everyone else.

Yeah that's where the retcon theory comes into it. That Toei just went along with the super strong Base form because that was what was written and established in the recent movies. However maybe for some reason when it came to Dragon Ball Super Toriyama retconned that by not having him absorb Super Saiyan God and that is something Toyotaro went with and that's why that form still continued to appear in the manga.

Out of everything this would best explain all the confusion that we've had up to yet.

[HeroR]

And if you want to used math and 50x40 is 2,000. So at the very least, Vegeta should be able to lift 1,000 tons even if he struggles with it.

Well actually if he can't lift 1,000 as a Super Saiyan then at a fiftieth of that in his Base form it'd mean he couldn't lift 20 tons.

In the scene he did lift 8 tons so it'd be able to lift between 8-19 tons so it would seem.

I think it might be the case that Toriyama and Toyotaro think Goku and Vegeta's base is still in the same realm of power, but Toei definitely don't. They've always depicted the adult Saiyans as being leagues above everyone else.

Yeah that's where the retcon theory comes into it. That Toei just went along with the super strong Base form because that was what was written and established in the recent movies. However maybe for some reason when it came to Dragon Ball Super Toriyama retconned that by not having him absorb Super Saiyan God and that is something Toyotaro went with and that's why that form still continued to appear in the manga.

Out of everything this would best explain all the confusion that we've had up to yet.

So despite kid Goku supposedly having a power level of 10 and can lift a car that is easily two tons, Goku who is stronger than Namek Saga Goku who had a base power three million can't lift twenty tons. And you don't see the problem here?

Let's see. Vegeta proclaiming himself as the strongest was contradicted by Goku overpowering him with kaioken and later it was revealed Freeza was stronger than him, so we have reasons to doubt him. And didn't Beerus fight back when he wanted after all? Goku fought back Trunks as well, but he did it as a SS3.

A theory is just a theory. You back it with indications, but no matter how strong the indications are, they don't share the same status as evidence. And this was a good example you brought up, because Frost confirming his power decreased creates an evidence. In Frost's case, we have the indication that his power decreased because Goku beat the crap out of him, but the confirmation came when Frost said it. In Cabba's case, we have just the indication, we lack the confirmation.

Goku using the Kaioken is a cheat code since it isn't his natural power and it can only be used for a few seconds. So Vegeta is the strongest naturally. And I wasn't talking abut their first meeting, I am talking in broad. Beerus didn't fight, he did the exact same thing as Goku. Block and then one-shotted.

And again, why wouldn't Cabba's power decreased after taking a beating when Frost did?

[Hugo Boss]

Let's see. Vegeta proclaiming himself as the strongest was contradicted by Goku overpowering him with kaioken and later it was revealed Freeza was stronger than him, so we have reasons to doubt him. And didn't Beerus fight back when he wanted after all? Goku fought back Trunks as well, but he did it as a SS3.

A theory is just a theory. You back it with indications, but no matter how strong the indications are, they don't share the same status as evidence. And this was a good example you brought up, because Frost confirming his power decreased creates an evidence. In Frost's case, we have the indication that his power decreased because Goku beat the crap out of him, but the confirmation came when Frost said it. In Cabba's case, we have just the indication, we lack the confirmation.

Goku using the Kaioken is a cheat code since it isn't his natural power and it can only be used for a few seconds. So Vegeta is the strongest naturally. And I wasn't talking abut their first meeting, I am talking in broad. Beerus didn't fight, he did the exact same thing as Goku. Block and then one-shotted.

And again, why wouldn't Cabba's power decreased after taking a beating when Frost did?

Okay, so Goku did the same thing as Beerus, but he transformed first. See?

If you want to know why Cabba's power didn't decrease like Frost's, you should ask the anime staff who worked on that episode.

[HeroR]

Okay, so Goku did the same thing as Beerus, but he transformed first. See?

If you want to know why Cabba's power didn't decrease like Frost's, you should ask the anime staff who worked on that episode.

And he transformed to see how he matched to Black and to show Trunks a level beyond Super Saiyan 2, not as a response to Trunks' strength.

I don't need the anime staff to tell me since I don't need to be spoon-fed information. If one character gets hurt and they decrease in power, then another person getting hurt should also decrease their power. I don't need the anime staff to tell me every time someone gets hurt they're power decreased unless it something drastic.

[Hugo Boss]

Okay, so Goku did the same thing as Beerus, but he transformed first. See?

If you want to know why Cabba's power didn't decrease like Frost's, you should ask the anime staff who worked on that episode.

And he transformed to see how he matched to Black and to show Trunks a level beyond Super Saiyan 2, not as a response to Trunks' strength.

I don't need the anime staff to tell me since I don't need to be spoon-fed information. If one character gets hurt and they decrease in power, then another person getting hurt should also decrease their power. I don't need the anime staff to tell me every time someone gets hurt they're power decreased unless it something drastic.

I think you are half-right. The point was to compare himself against Black, not teasing Trunks with new level-ups. To get straight to his objective, if Goku really is stronger than Trunks as a SS2, he would just need to fight back and use the level he fought Black. That would be enough.

It doesn't matter if the situations are similar. One confirmation doesn't extrapolate from its context. The minimum we expect is that they provide the necessary detail to confirm a fact, which in this case they didn't. Otherwise, if not speculating, we are just spreading misinformation.

[HeroR]

I think you are half-right. The point was to compare himself against Black, not teasing Trunks with new level-ups. To get straight to his objective, if Goku really is stronger than Trunks as a SS2, he would just need to fight back and use the level he fought Black. That would be enough.

It doesn't matter if the situations are similar. One confirmation doesn't extrapolate from its context. The minimum we expect is that they provide the necessary detail to confirm a fact, which in this case they didn't. Otherwise, if not speculating, we are just spreading misinformation.

Goku told Trunks that he was going to show him a level beyond Super Saiyan 3. So he was showing Trunks he new power-up. And didn't just power-up Super Saiyan 3 because he was both showing a new form and seeing how that compared to Black.

Like I said, a show shouldn't have to spoon-fed its fans every little bit of information if you have two comparisons that can be made. If Frost lost power because he got his ass beat, then it's logically to conclude that Cabba got weaker from getting his ass beat too. What sense would it make for Cabba to remain at full power after getting his ass handed to him? Not to mention, this situation has happened before throughout Dragon Ball where people get hurt and can't access their full power.