Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[omaro34]

Goku got scratched by a bullet.
Raditz wasn't affected by it.
Raditz stronger than base God Goku confirmed..

Lol the power scaling in Dragonball is so wonky its really impossible to really quantify.

[HeroR]

Goku got scratched by a bullet.
Raditz wasn't affected by it.
Raditz stronger than base God Goku confirmed..

Lol the power scaling in Dragonball is so wonky its really impossible to really quantify.

Raditz caught the bullet, just like what Goku did. So this joke doesn't work.

[DBZ Macky]

Base Goku lifts 40 tons WHILE FLYING.
Which would mathematically imply that SS Goku would be able to lift 2,000 tons while flying.

So why can't Vegeta lift 1,000 tons while grounded?

Also, just saying, we should try to be conservative when talking about PLs and feats, since we see how Toriyama always seems to "lowball" them.

[ahill1]

The manga's power scaling got wacky too, right? I mean, Trunks super saiyan 2 at full power was on par with super saiyan 3 Goku and it was stated Trunks was no match for Black, meaning Black is also above ssj3 Goku. Yet, Vegeta super saiyan 2 was handily defeating Black, who was stated by Trunks to have gotten a little stronger or so. Unless Vegeta got way stronger from training with Trunks during one day, this is an inconsistence.

In another forum, I make my own analysis about Hit's power in the manga. I'll share with you guys:


When not using full power, Hit could effortlessly defeat Vegeta SSJ Blue, even though the latter could only fight with less 10% of his real Blue power, as stated by Whis:

Ch. 13, pg. 18.6
Context: As Hit’s time skips appear to be shorter than before
Whis: "When he [Vegeta] went Blue during his fight, he wasn't able to exert even 1/10th of his usual strength. Blue is not a transformation that can be done over and over again in succession. The amount of stamina it consumes makes it a detriment in that regards."


When Goku learnt about Hit's time skip, he could keep up with him with just his SSJ, although his stamina was dropping fast.

Ch. 13, pg. 18.6
Context: As Hit’s time skips appear to be shorter than before
Whis: "When he [Vegeta] went Blue during his fight, he wasn't able to exert even 1/10th of his usual strength. Blue is not a transformation that can be done over and over again in succession. The amount of stamina it consumes makes it a detriment in that regards."



After using SSJ God, Hit's time skip couldn't do shit against Goku due to the tremendous power difference, leading Whis to state Hit's power only works on that who got inferior or equal power with him:

Ch. 13, pg. 17.5-6
Context: As Hit’s time skips appear to be shorter than before
Beerus: “What’s going on here, Whis? Explain!”
Whis: “Okay. Goku’s power has become far superior to that of Hit’s. That is what’s happening here. Hit’s skills are only effective against opponents who are near or below his level.”


Beerus then stated that Goku's God form in that situation was more powerful than Vegeta's Blue form, who could only exert less than 10% of his potential:

Ch. 13, pg. 20
Context: Beerus reaching a conclusion
Beerus: "So the short of it is, Goku's God form is stronger than Vegeta's Blue was back then, and it now surpasses Hit's current power level... I leave anything out?"
Whis: "That about sums it up."


As for full power Hit, we see everyone commenting on the power increase, with them stating how he hadn't to use it in a long time. Hit was confident he could stop Goku for a whole 0.1 seconds, until Goku turned into Blue:

Ch. 13, pg. 20.4
Context: Hit has just revealed his full power
Piccolo: “Th-this energy…!!!”


Ch. 13, pg. 20.5
Context: Hit has just revealed his full power
Champa: “That guy… He was hiding his true power…!!”
Vados: “Of course. His time skipping ability always allowed him to quickly finish off his enemies. It’s probably rare for him to use all of his power in a fight.”


Ch. 13, pg. 21.3-5
Context: After Hit reveals he can only time skip one more time
Hit: “That one time, however, will finish this. I will definitely stop you for 0.1 seconds.”
Goku: “Your secrets are starting to come out…”
Hit: “This time, I can keep my hands hidden without worry.”

And there's still full power Hit, using all his assassin techniques, which wasn't shown:

Ch. 13, pg. 28.1
Context: Goku acknowledges some of Hit’s techniques are off-limits in the tournament
Goku: “That means you are much stronger than I’ve seen so far.”


We can conclude Hit's full power was around SSJ God Goku, given Hit's confidence in using his techniques now (which only work at opponents on the same level), which forced Goku to go Blue.


But what about Hit's initial power? We have a bit of a problem here:

---Hit could make his techniques work on 10% SSJ Blue Vegeta, meaning Hit was at least at the same level of 10% Veggie.

---Hit's technique also worked on Goku SSJ, but this latter could put up a good fight now knowing Hit's abilities, which would put them both at the same level.

---Beerus implied 10% Vegeta SSJ Blue was still a good deal above SSJ1 Goku, by only referring Goku's red form as having surpassed 10% Vegeta. So:


Hit (initial) >= Vegeta SSJ Blue (<10%) >> Goku SSJ ~ Hit (initial)?

[ZombieVito]

Well damn.

[spoiler]Boo got confirmed to be the third fighter fighting in the exhibition match with universe 9.[/spoiler]

If Goku chooses the team by power then it's over, the two base theory would be confirmed.

[Bullza]

Those three fighting could answer some questions.

Goku is surely going to fight the strongest one which appears to be the tall one. If he beats that one without transforming and Gohan and Buu just about beat their opponents then it could still suggest there was no retcon.

Hopefully one way or another it establishs that either Base Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan or weaker than Buu.

[HeroR]

Well damn.

[spoiler]Boo got confirmed to be the third fighter fighting in the exhibition match with universe 9.[/spoiler]

If Goku chooses the team by power then it's over, the two base theory would be confirmed.

How so?

[DBZ Macky]

It could be that Basil is the weakest, and the tall one and Base Goku are still the strongest.

In any case, I think it's good for all of us that Buu got the first fight. And just when someone said that he would be the best reference for the power scale

My bet's on base Goku >> Buu.
Though I'm okay with him being weaker too.

[ZombieVito]

Well damn.

[spoiler]Boo got confirmed to be the third fighter fighting in the exhibition match with universe 9.[/spoiler]

If Goku chooses the team by power then it's over, the two base theory would be confirmed.

How so?

[spoiler]That would mean Boo> Piccolo and that's impossible. Not only we have the Frost fight but Piccolo was also shown to be on par with base Gohan, who we now know was not that far off base Goku and the latter is superior to SSJ3 Gotenks.[/spoiler]

[HeroR]

Well damn.

[spoiler]Boo got confirmed to be the third fighter fighting in the exhibition match with universe 9.[/spoiler]

If Goku chooses the team by power then it's over, the two base theory would be confirmed.

How so?

[spoiler]That would mean Boo> Piccolo and that's impossible. Not only we have the Frost fight but Piccolo was also shown to be on par with base Gohan, who we now know was not that far off base Goku and the latter is superior to SSJ3 Gotenks.[/spoiler]

We already knew Buu was stronger than Piccolo from the Champa Saga. Goku wanted Buu before he even considered Piccolo. When he thought he had Gohan, Goku was going to dumped Piccolo. There was nothing indicating that Piccolo was stronger than Buu other than Piccolo doing well against an exhausted Frost that everyone outright said he had no chance against.

Piccolo and Gohan were training, so chances are Gohan matched his power to Piccolo. Otherwise, they couldn't get any training done if Gohan just stomped Piccolo into the mud.

We already had this discussion about Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan Goku, so not going down that road again.

[ZombieVito]

Even exhausted, Frost was powerful enough that Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to beat him easily. There's absolutely no way Piccolo did what he did if he's weaker than Boo.

There's was also no indication that Gohan was suppressing himself.

[HeroR]

Even exhausted, Frost was powerful enough that Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to beat him easily. There's absolutely no way Piccolo did what he did if he's weaker than Boo.

There's was also no indication that Gohan was suppressing himself.

There's nothing indicating that Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to take out Frost. Everything points to Vegeta using an overkill approached to know Frost out of the ring. It's like saying Goku needed Super Saiyan to beat Yakon.

I was talking about Goku suppressing himself since Goku does stuff like that all the time.

[ZombieVito]

Even exhausted, Frost was powerful enough that Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to beat him easily. There's absolutely no way Piccolo did what he did if he's weaker than Boo.

There's was also no indication that Gohan was suppressing himself.

There's nothing indicating that Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to take out Frost. Everything points to Vegeta using an overkill approached to know Frost out of the ring. It's like saying Goku needed Super Saiyan to beat Yakon.

I was talking about Goku suppressing himself since Goku does stuff like that all the time.

Don't buy that. Vegeta wanted to humiliate Frost so not using Super Saiyan would have been better.

I was referring to Gohan suppressing himself against Piccolo but there's also zero reason to think Goku did.

To be honest I can tell we are not going to change each others minds so best to leave this with just saying we agree to disagree.

[HeroR]

Don't buy that. Vegeta wanted to humiliate Frost so not using Super Saiyan would have been better.

I was referring to Gohan suppressing himself against Piccolo but there's also zero reason to think Goku did.

To be honest I can tell we are not going to change each others minds so best to leave this with just saying we agree to disagree.

No, Vegeta wanted to beat Frost up and that's exactly what he did.

Why wouldn't Gohan suppressed himself? It was a training match and base form Gohan was already much stronger than Piccolo even before they trained. Gohan going full power would have creamed Piccolo, not much training.

And again, Goku was going to dump Piccolo for Gohan. If Piccolo was equal or stronger than base form Gohan, he would have replaced Gohan with Buu, not Piccolo.

[Bullza]

I definitely think Buu was stronger than Piccolo in the Universe 6 saga.

That Vegeta still needed to turn Super Saiyan to fight against a supposedly weakened Frost is where a lot of the confusion came into it for people.

Though again I think this is due to a possible retcon where Toriyama and the story called for the Base Saiyans to be weaker than Piccolo except the anime had already made him out to be God tier which created the problem because it just didn't make sense.

[HeroR]

I definitely think Buu was stronger than Piccolo in the Universe 6 saga.

That Vegeta still needed to turn Super Saiyan to fight against a supposedly weakened Frost is where a lot of the confusion came into it for people.

Though again I think this is due to a possible retcon where Toriyama and the story called for the Base Saiyans to be weaker than Piccolo except the anime had already made him out to be God tier which created the problem because it just didn't make sense.

This is the problem. Fans keep thinking Vegeta needed to go Super Saiyan. There is nothing saying that he did. In fact, it's an open question if Goku even needed to transform to beat up Frost since he only seemed to transform to egged Frost to use his full power.

[Bullza]

There's nothing to say he didn't need to either. He actually did transform so you'd naturally think he would need to before thinking the opposite.

The idea that he just did so to humiliate him would make no sense as Frost lost that much power that he said he could no longer accidentally kill Piccolo. Piccolo was also capable of defeating Frost if his special beam cannon had hit.

So Vegeta if he were God level should have been able to decimate him anyway.

[HeroR]

There's nothing to say he didn't need to either. He actually did transform so you'd naturally think he would need to before thinking the opposite.

The idea that he just did so to humiliate him would make no sense as Frost lost that much power that he said he could no longer accidentally kill Piccolo. Piccolo was also capable of defeating Frost if his special beam cannon had hit.

So Vegeta if he were God level should have been able to decimate him anyway.

You mean like Goku transforming against Yakon?

Vegeta didn't want to humiliate Frost. If the goal was to humiliate, he wouldn't have taking him out in one punch. He would have beaten him up like he did against Freeza. He wanted to punished Frost for cheating, so he smashed him. Frost is a known lair so everything that comes out of his mouth is suspect and Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon killed Raditz, a fighter over three times stronger than him and he couldn't even touch him.

Given that Frost's Assault Form was able to stand up against base form Vegeta and given the power different between third form Freeza and final form Freeza, not necessarily. And even then, nothing said that Vegeta needed to transform, just like Goku didn't need to transform against Yakon or Vegeta against Cabba.

Also, why the heck would Toriyama gimped Goku and Vegeta all the way down to be weaker than freaking Piccolo in their base forms, especially after he made a big deal out of Goku making his base form stronger so he wouldn't need Super Saiyan 2 or 3 anymore. Are you now telling me that Goku and Vegeta are now weaker or on par with rusty base form Gohan from Resurrection 'F'?

[DBZ Macky]

I digress, but everything points towards Yakon being stronger than Base Goku. From Gohan getting worried once SS was out of the picture and proposing to team up to Goku barely managing to avoid getting cut in half.

[HeroR]

I digress, but everything points towards Yakon being stronger than Base Goku. From Gohan getting worried once SS was out of the picture and proposing to team up to Goku barely managing to avoid getting cut in half.

Goku was easily dodging Yakon in the dark and kicked him with ease. Gohan was being cautious. Yakon may have challenged base form Goku, but nothing shown has him beating him.