Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Like I said in the other thread, it all doesn't make much sense to me why Vegeta can sense the Ki of Gods and yet supposedly Goku can't.

When Goku turned into a SSJG the others couldn't sense him but once the time ran out they could sense him again because he was no longer a God. Goku not being a God at that point is why he couldn't sense Beerus' Ki and had to use Whis to get to the planet. In the latest episode of Super though Goku could sense Vegeta's Ki because he said was possibly stronger than him which would imply that Vegeta isn't a God so why then is he able to sense God Ki?

It might have nothing to do with Vegeta becoming a God. Maybe characters need to be at a high enough level to be able to sense it.

Edit: Actually that does seem to be the case based on what Whis said at the end of the episode, that they've "just barely reached the level where they can sense the Ki of a God".

Also going by Whis' comparison that the level of Gods was the castle and Goku and Vegeta (in base) were just the tree then we can probably say as they are now in base form they're much weaker than Super Saiyan God.

[Pannaliciour]

So, Vegeta became a Saiyan beyond God through Whis' "ki control" special training. He has all the traits; he is at around SSG level in base, he can sense the ki of gods, and he will soon become a Super Saiyan Blue.

This is awesome, honestly. Not only it explains Vegeta's rage boost against Beerus, which made him stronger than Super Vegetto, but it could also explain the huge increases in power that the Saiyans made in the GT timeline. Since the power of SSG can be drawn out through "ki control" training (as Whis said), I guess Vegeta temporarily used some of its power against Beerus, and the Saiyans in GT came close to understanding this kind of training, which would explain how Ultimate Gohan can become a Super Saiyan (he kept training between Z & GT), SS Goten & Trunks surpassed U. Gohan (they promised Goku they would train at the end of Z), Vegeta surpassed Gohan, Goku surpassed Majin Boo in his base form, and Pan was not extremely far from the other base Saiyans. It would also explain how the Future Warrior & Future Trunks became so strong in XenoVerse, who were considered worthy by Beerus to take on Demigra, who was stronger than SbG Goku.

Not saying that all these became Saiyans beyond God, but it appears that they have gotten at least an idea of the kind of training one should do in order to achieve this level, which explains the insane gains they suddenly made.


However, we don't know if this is possible in Toriyama's continuity (manga/BoG/FnF). There is no indication that Vegeta became a Saiyan beyond God like in Super, and it's hinted that he went through SSG like Goku.

No its not possible in continuity of manga bog fnf. Because they never reaches ssjb in GT, they never use ssjb, they NEVER mention ssj GOD or Blue. Vegeta uses a machine to go ssj4 thats so bullshit that that alone it doesn"t deserve to be in continuity of manga bog fnf.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No its not possible in continuity of manga bog fnf. Because they never reaches ssjb in GT, they never use ssjb, they NEVER mention ssj GOD or Blue.

I never said that the Saiyans in GT are Saiyans beyond God, they obviously aren't, and I noted that in my post. But, IMO, they made their first steps towards it, which is why they became so powerful all of a sudden. They are still mortals, and they still get the normal x10/50/100/400 increases from their Oozaru/SS/2/3 forms respectively, and some even achieved Golden Oozaru & SS4, which are still weaker than SSG.

Vegeta uses a machine to go ssj4 thats so bullshit that that alone it doesn"t deserve to be in continuity of manga bog fnf.

I never said they are in the same continuity.

[Khin]

If you can reach God-tier through the right training method,Then i can see the other 3 fighters thats going to enter the Universe 6 tournament being trained by Whis.

[Birusu16]

So after watching the most recent episode with subs we have two new implications.

1. Goku is drastically weaker in base compared to his SSJG form.
2. Beerus was holding back a hell of a lot more than 70% of his power against Goku.

It has to be one or the other or a combination of both otherwise Whis' tree comparison using Goku and Vegeta's current levels compared to the realm of the actual gods makes no sense as Goku and Vegeta are apparently only at the level of a small tree while Gods like Whis, Beerus, Vados, and Champa are the the level of Beerus' enormous tree. Basically an implication that Goku and Vegeta are still monumentally weaker than Whis, Beerus, Vados, and Champa.

More power level inconsistencies. Joy.

[Bullza]

I'd say it was number 1. I was also thinking on how there was that scene in the movie where Beerus half asleep fires that small blast and Goku said it would have killed him if it had hit him but I can't see that being enough to kill SSJG Goku.

I think it also makes sense with Whis' comparison of them to the level of Gods (tree vs castle).

And I think it makes sense that A) When Goku turns into a Super Saiyan Blue its only then when he mentioned being able to tap into the power of a God and B) Frieza being taken aback by the huge power increase that Goku had when he transformed.

In other words I'd say it was maybe like this

Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Golden Frieza - 7
SSJB Goku - 6
SSJG Goku - 6
SSJB Vegeta - 6
Base Goku - 3
Base Vegeta - 3
Frieza - 2

SSJB might just be the same strenght as SSJG with the difference being it doesn't run out and it doesn't require other people to become it.

[GTX]

So, Vegeta became a Saiyan beyond God through Whis' "ki control" special training. He has all the traits; he is at around SSG level in base, he can sense the ki of gods, and he will soon become a Super Saiyan Blue.

This is awesome, honestly. Not only it explains Vegeta's rage boost against Beerus, which made him stronger than Super Vegetto, but it could also explain the huge increases in power that the Saiyans made in the GT timeline. Since the power of SSG can be drawn out through "ki control" training (as Whis said), I guess Vegeta temporarily used some of its power against Beerus, and the Saiyans in GT came close to understanding this kind of training, which would explain how Ultimate Gohan can become a Super Saiyan (he kept training between Z & GT), SS Goten & Trunks surpassed U. Gohan (they promised Goku they would train at the end of Z), Vegeta surpassed Gohan, Goku surpassed Majin Boo in his base form, and Pan was not extremely far from the other base Saiyans. It would also explain how the Future Warrior & Future Trunks became so strong in XenoVerse, who were considered worthy by Beerus to take on Demigra, who was stronger than SbG Goku.

Not saying that all these became Saiyans beyond God, but it appears that they have gotten at least an idea of the kind of training one should do in order to achieve this level, which explains the insane gains they suddenly made.


However, we don't know if this is possible in Toriyama's continuity (manga/BoG/FnF). There is no indication that Vegeta became a Saiyan beyond God like in Super, and it's hinted that he went through SSG like Goku.

No its not possible in continuity of manga bog fnf. Because they never reaches ssjb in GT, they never use ssjb, they NEVER mention ssj GOD or Blue. Vegeta uses a machine to go ssj4 thats so bullshit that that alone it doesn"t deserve to be in continuity of manga bog fnf.

That's wrong, there is no wrong vegeta can change to ssj 4. The only problem he can't because he has no tail. The machine gave him the tail. All the criteria to become ssj 4 has been fulfilled long a go.
1. To become golden ape at baby saga check
2. To control golden ape happened at baby saga check. When vegeta naturally can control his ape form so he don't need the effort to control golden ape as hard as goku. So it could possibly he can change to ssj 4 from get go he just need to repeat the process. So even without baby mostly he can control golden ape.
The light gave him tail and made him able to change to ape form and vegeta naturally change the ape to become golden and control it.
It's skipped because mostly the fans know vegeta can control the ape form so the SSJ 4 was the natural outcome.

About ssjb goku normal ssj state has absorbed it like how normal ssj absorb ssg now
I don't watch/ follow super enough but i think these are some solid reasons,

[Birusu16]

I'd say it was number 1. I was also thinking on how there was that scene in the movie where Beerus half asleep fires that small blast and Goku said it would have killed him if it had hit him but I can't see that being enough to kill SSJG Goku.

I think it also makes sense with Whis' comparison of them to the level of Gods (tree vs castle).

And I think it makes sense that A) When Goku turns into a Super Saiyan Blue its only then when he mentioned being able to tap into the power of a God and B) Freeza being taken aback by the huge power increase that Goku had when he transformed.

In other words I'd say it was maybe like this

Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Golden Freeza - 7
SSJB Goku - 6
SSJG Goku - 6
SSJB Vegeta - 6
Base Goku - 3
Base Vegeta - 3
Freeza - 2

SSJB might just be the same strenght as SSJG with the difference being it doesn't run out and it doesn't require other people to become it.

While I agree that this is the more plausible and logical option, there's one scene that puts a dent in it. That being when base Goku physically punches and destroys Beerus' final attack. A base Goku who's drastically weaker than SSJG shouldn't have been capable of doing that. They also can't be THAT much weaker seeing as they can also sense god ki now. Something that's only possible when you reach a high enough level according to Whis.

Inconsistencies I tell ya

[GTX]

I'd say it was number 1. I was also thinking on how there was that scene in the movie where Beerus half asleep fires that small blast and Goku said it would have killed him if it had hit him but I can't see that being enough to kill SSJG Goku.

I think it also makes sense with Whis' comparison of them to the level of Gods (tree vs castle).

And I think it makes sense that A) When Goku turns into a Super Saiyan Blue its only then when he mentioned being able to tap into the power of a God and B) Freeza being taken aback by the huge power increase that Goku had when he transformed.

In other words I'd say it was maybe like this

Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Golden Freeza - 7
SSJB Goku - 6
SSJG Goku - 6
SSJB Vegeta - 6
Base Goku - 3
Base Vegeta - 3
Freeza - 2

SSJB might just be the same strenght as SSJG with the difference being it doesn't run out and it doesn't require other people to become it.

While I agree that this is the more plausible and logical option, there's one scene that puts a dent in it. That being when base Goku physically punches and destroys Beerus' final attack. A base Goku who's drastically weaker than SSJG shouldn't have been capable of doing that. They also can't be THAT much weaker seeing as they can also sense god ki now. Something that's only possible when you reach a high enough level according to Whis.

Inconsistencies I tell ya

It won't be inconsistency if the fact that beerus lying that he have used all/ most of his ki. So goku at base capable to rival it because beerus was exhausted. So mostly beerus was lying to whis he only used 70 % of his power level but instead he has drain his ki and his stamina a lot.

[Pannaliciour]

Toriyama is clear about one thing: Ssjb is stronger than ssj god. It is stated in the manga.

Toriyama isn't in charge of the Super manga.

What do you mean by charge? You do know he is the creator of dragon ball? He tells the story the other one is drawing it.

Written bij Toriyama, art by Toyotarō. So the script is in hand of Toriyama.

[GTX]

Toriyama is clear about one thing: Ssjb is stronger than ssj god. It is stated in the manga.

Toriyama isn't in charge of the Super manga.

Uhh yes he his. He tells the story the other one is drawing it.

citation for this statement?

[Pannaliciour]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Super

The first page just under "MANGA"

[GTX]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Super

The first page just under "MANGA"

Regardless it's wikipediaThe manga contradicting super a lot. They're far too different.

[Sandubadear]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Super

The first page just under "MANGA"

Because wikipedia is always right.

Toriyama is writing the U6 arc story, he's got nothing to do with the manga.

[GTX]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Super

The first page just under "MANGA"

I don't care about who's the writer, though but it's contradicting and have different events than the other adaptions.

[ZombieVito]

If Goku as a Super Saiyan has the same power as when he was a Super Saiyan God.....then what's the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue?

In the dub Goku said that he had a taste for something called Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue was just supposed to be him being able to tap into that power on his own now but if he already has that power as a Super Saiyan then what's the purpose of Super Saiyan Blue supposed to be?

To look cooler.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama is writing the U6 arc story, he's got nothing to do with the manga.

Well, the manga at this point is at the U6 arc...

[Sandubadear]

Toriyama is writing the U6 arc story, he's got nothing to do with the manga.

Well, the manga at this point is at the U6 arc...

Toriyama writes the story, gives it to Toyotarou, and he makes the manga based on the story.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama is writing the U6 arc story, he's got nothing to do with the manga.

Well, the manga at this point is at the U6 arc...

Toriyama writes the story, gives it to Toyotarou, and he makes the manga based on the story.

So, why do you say that he has nothing to do with the manga?

[Sandubadear]

So, why do you say that he has nothing to do with the manga?

He's got the same in both the manga and anime, which is just 'writing the story'. Nobody says Toriyama is 'making the anime'.