Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

Are some people really still adamant that Majin Buu is weaker than Piccolo? I don't think there's really that much else needed to reinstate that the hieararchy is "Goku and Vegeta > Gohan and Buu > Piccolo > Goten and Trunks" based on the infos from both tournaments.

Wanna know what's the best thing about going through the last pages is? Finding my prediction on how the Forest Arc fight would have unfolded right below the post you mentioned:

Well, if we wanted to nitpick as usual, we don't really know if the guys in the forest are as strong as the originals, at present; nor is it certain that we'll know. We'll see if Goku or Krillin will acknowledge their strength, in which case we'll have a positive answer, but I'm much more inclined to believe that the fight will be written like, y'know:

Part 1. Everyone attacks Goku and Krillin.
Part 2. Something really random happens, like Tambourine and Cell fighting on equal terms with Krillin (or maybe just Tambourine); headscratches ensue; Goku blitzes through everyone else in base, but still can't k.o anyone. Basically, everyone will have the same strength or be fodder regardless of their original power but they'll get to the heroes through their sheer numbers.
3. Then it's either a deus ex machina (the copies disappear!) or Goku turning Super Saiyan 1 to casually dispose of everyone (just to add some fuel the subplot of Krillin's feelings of inferiority).

I think the centerpiece right now to clarify things for most fans will still be Mr. Buu, as long as he we can gauge his strength properly compared to the base Saiyans in the tournament. With people of such varying strengths and TOEI's general m.o., I'd bet the forest fight will be simplified.

Can't fool me, TOEI, ye ol' devil.

[Noah]

Base on nothing, especially since the show never acknowledged this supposed 'retcon', like they did with the revision of Vegetto.

Cry me a river if you don't want to believe that Cabba can beat wank-fest Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto's ass. He, like Super Buu, is last season.

Nothing has ever implied that the Saiyans had God Ki in base post BoG, so yea you should be the one crying here as you defend crap storytelling like: Piccolo and anyone in U6 being God-tier, Future Trunks too, Gohan, a fodder in RoF with barely no training was able to hit the "almighty" God Goku and etc.

For the best consistentlcy what it needs is for Lavender to beat Buu easily and then when Gohan fights him he uses Super Saiyan from the start. Lavender wins a tough fight and then Goku steps in and easily beats Lavender in his Base form.

That's what's needed for consistency really as it'd make it

Base Goku > Super Saiyan Gohan > Buu > Base Gohan = Piccolo

I suppose you're kidding, right? SSJ Goku was somewhat even with SSJ Gohan in #75, how suddenly his base would be stronger now? Forget it about it, there's no such thing called "consistency" in this show

[ekrolo2]

When I voice my problems about Cabba, I'm not doing it because I hate the character but his context does NOT justify the power implied for him to have. If Cabba was an older, grizzled veteran who fought in 10,000 wars or some shit, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me about him being above SS3 Vegetto in Base. But the context for that doesn't exist: he's treated as a rookie scrub and unless everyone is just OP as fuck in U6 because reasons, you can't make me buy this.

Hell, I refuse to buy that an entire species of warriors who fight all the time are apparently never agitated by rage or by the death of a loved on to have NEVER become fucking Super Saiyan's EVER in all the time they've been fighting.

Cabba's context does not, does fucking not work with the powers he's being given. That's why I'll believe Base Saiyan's are above SS3 Vegetto when something other than the Freeza fight from Super F implies this. And that increasingly seems less and less likely if Goku needed Super Saiyan to fight scrub SS Gohan not two episodes ago when his "God Base" would've served just as well.

[Bullza]

I suppose you're kidding, right? SSJ Goku was somewhat even with SSJ Gohan in #75, how suddenly his base would be stronger now? Forget it about it, there's no such thing called "consistency" in this show

Well it wouldn't be suddenly. Before that episode everyone though Base Goku was drastically more powerful than Super Saiyan Gohan. Episode 75 sort of messed it up even more.

If it turns out that during this Tournament Base Goku is much stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan then that's back to how it should be and we can just look at Episode 75 as Goku just playing around after all or that it was just filler nonsense.

[Zamasu55]

When I voice my problems about Cabba, I'm not doing it because I hate the character but his context does NOT justify the power implied for him to have. If Cabba was an older, grizzled veteran who fought in 10,000 wars or some shit, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me about him being above SS3 Vegetto in Base. But the context for that doesn't exist: he's treated as a rookie scrub and unless everyone is just OP as fuck in U6 because reasons, you can't make me buy this.

Hell, I refuse to buy that an entire species of warriors who fight all the time are apparently never agitated by rage or by the death of a loved on to have NEVER become fucking Super Saiyan's EVER in all the time they've been fighting.

Cabba's context does not, does fucking not work with the powers he's being given. That's why I'll believe Base Saiyan's are above SS3 Vegetto when something other than the Freeza fight from Super F implies this. And that increasingly seems less and less likely if Goku needed Super Saiyan to fight scrub SS Gohan not two episodes ago when his "God Base" would've served just as well.

I agree.
But Ssj Gohan isn't scrub at all. He was as strong as Mystic Gohan in ROF, now he should be slightly stronger.

[TheMikado]

When I voice my problems about Cabba, I'm not doing it because I hate the character but his context does NOT justify the power implied for him to have. If Cabba was an older, grizzled veteran who fought in 10,000 wars or some shit, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me about him being above SS3 Vegetto in Base. But the context for that doesn't exist: he's treated as a rookie scrub and unless everyone is just OP as fuck in U6 because reasons, you can't make me buy this.

Hell, I refuse to buy that an entire species of warriors who fight all the time are apparently never agitated by rage or by the death of a loved on to have NEVER become fucking Super Saiyan's EVER in all the time they've been fighting.

Cabba's context does not, does fucking not work with the powers he's being given. That's why I'll believe Base Saiyan's are above SS3 Vegetto when something other than the Freeza fight from Super F implies this. And that increasingly seems less and less likely if Goku needed Super Saiyan to fight scrub SS Gohan not two episodes ago when his "God Base" would've served just as well.

I'm pissed Cabba is even as strong as he is in base and he turned SSJ over some random guy who he's never met saying some BS in a tournament despite not having the actual means to travel to another universe on his own. It's like Cabbas never actually been in a real fight before. It's bizarre.

[RehBeh]

But Ssj Gohan isn't scrub at all. He was as strong as Mystic Gohan in ROF, now he should be slightly stronger.

Gohan was weaker during RoF. The line about Tagoma being as strong as him at his best was a mintranslation.

[ekrolo2]

I agree.
But Ssj Gohan isn't scrub at all. He was as strong as Mystic Gohan in ROF, now he should be slightly stronger.

That still proves something about Base Saiyan's if Goku, who could take on Fourth Form Freeza in Base (after Freeza stomped SS Gohan easily), suddenly needs Super Saiyan to match his son in power.
It doesn't mean they're back at Boo arc power but they've clearly been dropped significantly from where F implied them to be at.

[RehBeh]

We should add Basil to God Tier since Goku said he's pretty good."A Power Levels Enthusiast"

[RehBeh]

That still proves something about Base Saiyan's if Goku, who could take on Fourth Form Freeza in Base (after Freeza stomped SS Gohan easily), suddenly needs Super Saiyan to match his son in power.
It doesn't mean they're back at Boo arc power but they've clearly been dropped significantly from where F implied them to be at.

DB Heroes tried to make sense out of it treating "Saiyan Beyond God" as a transformation. We need a guidebook for a solid answer to what the fuck is going on in Super in terms of powerscaling.

[perucho1990]

Gohan was weaker during RoF. The line about Tagoma being as strong as him at his best was a mintranslation.

It was? Then what was the real translation?

@ekrolo2, Toei buffed everyone in U6 to make them look less pathetic, but thats mostly due to Toriyamas making Goku and Vegeta way too OP.

[ekrolo2]

That still proves something about Base Saiyan's if Goku, who could take on Fourth Form Freeza in Base (after Freeza stomped SS Gohan easily), suddenly needs Super Saiyan to match his son in power.
It doesn't mean they're back at Boo arc power but they've clearly been dropped significantly from where F implied them to be at.

DB Heroes tried to make sense out of it treating "Saiyan Beyond God" as a transformation. We need a guidebook for a solid answer to what the fuck is going on in Super in terms of powerscaling.

I doubt a guide can make sense of this stuff TBH. It might clear up some minor things here and there but I doubt you're gonna be able to explain Trunks' myriad of WTF power scaling stuff.

[RehBeh]

I doubt a guide can make sense of this stuff TBH. It might clear up some minor things here and there but I doubt you're gonna be able to explain Trunks' myriad of WTF power scaling stuff.

I would like if a guide outright says that Saiyan Beyond God is a thing. That would be gold.

[Bullza]

Gohan was weaker during RoF. The line about Tagoma being as strong as him at his best was a mintranslation.

It was? Then what was the real translation?

@ekrolo2, Toei buffed everyone in U6 to make them look less pathetic, but thats mostly due to Toriyamas making Goku and Vegeta way too OP.

Tagoma when he was in control of his own body was supposed to be as strong as Gohan in his Base form when he was at full strenght.

When Ginyu took over Tagoma's body and brought out his full power then he was stronger than Base Gohan.

[RehBeh]

Gohan was weaker during RoF. The line about Tagoma being as strong as him at his best was a mintranslation.

It was? Then what was the real translation?


"He has power comparable to mine" or something like that.
The user above explained it better.

[LowRyder2005]

This is has been brought up in the past, I think: Herms himself clarified that the "peak" condition was almost surely referring to Gohan being healthy, as in with full stamina and uninjured.
Gohan having a crazy power-up like a "Super Ultimate" state is a matter of fans jumping the proverbial gun, taking an otherwise relative statement and blowing it out of proportion.

For instance: you could have Tagoma around the Perfect Cell who fought Trunks (say) and the scene would work just as well; heck, it would quite possibly fit much better with most of what happens before or after ROF, in my opinion (Trunks' ki being more or less around Gohan's, Gohan slacking off, Future Trunks finding Gohan's ki less impressive than what he remembered, Krillin acting like having Buu was a big deal among other things).

[HeroR]

Base on nothing, especially since the show never acknowledged this supposed 'retcon', like they did with the revision of Vegetto.

Cry me a river if you don't want to believe that Cabba can beat wank-fest Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto's ass. He, like Super Buu, is last season.

Nothing has ever implied that the Saiyans had God Ki in base post BoG, so yea you should be the one crying here as you defend crap storytelling like: Piccolo and anyone in U6 being God-tier, Future Trunks too, Gohan, a fodder in RoF with barely no training was able to hit the "almighty" God Goku and etc.

For the best consistentlcy what it needs is for Lavender to beat Buu easily and then when Gohan fights him he uses Super Saiyan from the start. Lavender wins a tough fight and then Goku steps in and easily beats Lavender in his Base form.

That's what's needed for consistency really as it'd make it

Base Goku > Super Saiyan Gohan > Buu > Base Gohan = Piccolo

I suppose you're kidding, right? SSJ Goku was somewhat even with SSJ Gohan in #75, how suddenly his base would be stronger now? Forget it about it, there's no such thing called "consistency" in this show

They don't need god ki to be extremely powerful. Freeza and Hit were super powerful without god, and so was Trunks since Super Saiyan Rage isn't a confirmed god form. And I have been saying for over a year that Goku's base form doesn't have god ki since everyone sensed him he lost Super Saiyan God, but he kept the power of godhood, which is how he was still able to battle Beerus. It's all there in Episodes 13 and 14 of Super. Piccolo isn't 'God-tier'. Everyone said he stood no chance against Frost and one did as well as he did wit h several factors. Future Trunks only got to 'God-Tier' when he got Super Saiyan Rage.

I am not crying. I actually paid attention to the story instead of whining about it and making leaps in logic.

[Marlowe89]

I suppose you're kidding, right? SSJ Goku was somewhat even with SSJ Gohan in #75, how suddenly his base would be stronger now?

After episode 75, I doubt we're gonna see base Goku suddenly performing at a higher level than Gohan, assuming he transforms into Super Saiyan at all. That would go against what was clearly conveyed in the scene. We'll see though.

If anything, I'm predicting that Gohan will lose to Bergamo's poison trick.

[ekrolo2]

I suppose you're kidding, right? SSJ Goku was somewhat even with SSJ Gohan in #75, how suddenly his base would be stronger now?

After episode 75, I doubt we're gonna see base Goku suddenly performing at a higher level than Gohan, assuming he transforms into Super Saiyan at all. That would go against what was clearly conveyed in the scene. We'll see though.

Episode 75 actually clears up where Base Goku is and by extension Vegeta are. If SS Gohan is on par with his Ultimate state then you simply need to divide whatever your PL for Ultimate is (mine is 600 billion) with SSs x50 multiplier and you'll roughly get Base Goku now. We also know Goku got 10 times stronger from the U6 tourney during his rematch with Hit so you can divide his current Base by 10 and you've got Base Goku & Vegeta figured out.

[Bullza]

Yeah but if current Base Goku was 1/50th of Mystic Gohan and then Resurrection F/Universe 6 Base Goku was 1/500th of Mystic Gohan then it doesn't make sense with him being above SSJ3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan was less than twice as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks.

So unless Base Gohan is also stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks....but then Piccolo was on par with him so he'd also be stronger so it's all confusing.

I'd prefer they just show that Base Goku > Super Saiyan Gohan so that fight can just be an outlier.