Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

so it's all confusing.

I think you mean its all broken

[Ki Breaker]

so it's all confusing.

I think you mean its all broken

We should just change the name of this thread to "power scaling? It's broken boi"

[Bullza]

Well with Dragon Ball Z you also had a lot of inconsistencies with the power levels and such as well but most of it was from the filler so most people would just ignore it for being filler.

This time around we still have filler but people are not so quick to ignore it at all because it's all different with how it's done now.

So yeah if it was shown in the Resurrection F saga that Base Goku was much stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan and if by chance it is shown once again soon in this Universe Survival saga both of which are canon stories...then why won't people ignore the recent Goku vs Gohan fight for being filler?

[incarnati0n]

Well with Dragon Ball Z you also had a lot of inconsistencies with the power levels and such as well but most of it was from the filler so most people would just ignore it for being filler.

This time around we still have filler but people are not so quick to ignore it at all because it's all different with how it's done now.

So yeah if it was shown in the Resurrection F saga that Base Goku was much stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan and if by chance it is shown once again soon in this Universe Survival saga both of which are canon stories...then why won't people ignore the recent Goku vs Gohan fight for being filler?

It's not just that. How do you buy into the really strong base theory and then have Vegeta have to go ssj againsy everyone in the U6 tournament? That makes no sense.

[ekrolo2]

Well with Dragon Ball Z you also had a lot of inconsistencies with the power levels and such as well but most of it was from the filler so most people would just ignore it for being filler.

This time around we still have filler but people are not so quick to ignore it at all because it's all different with how it's done now.

So yeah if it was shown in the Resurrection F saga that Base Goku was much stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan and if by chance it is shown once again soon in this Universe Survival saga both of which are canon stories...then why won't people ignore the recent Goku vs Gohan fight for being filler?

If the new tournament arc has Ultimate Gohan fight an opponent to a standstill that Goku later on can stomp without transforming, I'll accept that the God Ki enhanced Base states still exist. But until it shows up again in something outside the retellings or what we can classify as "filler" then I'll treat them as being regular levels in Base.

Hell, the "filler" of Super gives us conflicting reports with Copy Vegeta one-shotting SS3 Gotenks but then Goku needing SS to match Ultimate tier SS Gohan.

[Bullza]

That makes no sense.

It doesn't really and that's what makes me think that maybe they weren't supposed to be portrayed as being that strong in the anime. The strenght they had in the movies may not have been meant for Super.

If the new tournament arc has Ultimate Gohan fight an opponent to a standstill that Goku later on can stomp without transforming, I'll accept that the God Ki enhanced Base states still exist. But until it shows up again in something outside the retellings or what we can classify as "filler" then I'll treat them as being regular levels in Base

But as it was mentioned they never actually had God Ki in their Base forms. Vegeta especially was supposed to have matched Goku just from training with Whis the old fashioned way.

It might not even be that long a wait. If Buu has some trouble with this Basil and then it turns out that Bergamo is even stronger than Basil and Goku fights him in Base as he does in the new opening then that could portray Base Goku > Buu.

[HeroR]

Well with Dragon Ball Z you also had a lot of inconsistencies with the power levels and such as well but most of it was from the filler so most people would just ignore it for being filler.

This time around we still have filler but people are not so quick to ignore it at all because it's all different with how it's done now.

So yeah if it was shown in the Resurrection F saga that Base Goku was much stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan and if by chance it is shown once again soon in this Universe Survival saga both of which are canon stories...then why won't people ignore the recent Goku vs Gohan fight for being filler?

It's not just that. How do you buy into the really strong base theory and then have Vegeta have to go ssj againsy everyone in the U6 tournament? That makes no sense.

Because everyone in U6 is extremely strong. Not hard to figure out.

That makes no sense.

It doesn't really and that's what makes me think that maybe they weren't supposed to be portrayed as being that strong in the anime. The strenght they had in the movies may not have been meant for Super.

Seriously, what is up with all this U6 underplay? The idea that another universe has powerful fighters that crap on Super Saiyan God Goku is that hard to believe? I wonder if this underplay would have happened during the Android/Cell Saga if this forum existed back then, since 'someone stronger than Freeza is unimaginable'.

[pacz360]

So instead of beating down this tiresome topic where do you guys think Basil is sitting in power? In the preview he was able to deflect multiple ki blast from buu so he can't be that weak probably somewhere in the ssj2 tier bracket even tho he lose to buu next episode.

[TheMikado]

Seriously, what is up with all this U6 underplay? The idea that another universe has powerful fighters that crap on Super Saiyan God Goku is that hard to believe? I wonder if this underplay would have happened during the Android/Cell Saga if this forum existed back then, since 'someone stronger than Freeza is unimaginable'.

Frieza remains the most powerful naturally born mortal in the universe to this day. What was said when he first came out still holds true, to our knowledge. The problem isn't that is makes U6 super strong, it makes U7 super weak. Logically speaking if Buu were that much of an issue they could have gotten virtually any fighter from that universe to destroy him. Buu would be less than SSJ3 Gotenks who is less than base saiyans. Meaning with out Whis training Goku and Vegeta would have never stood a chance an only recently got to the point where they can breathe the same air as this "twin" universe and not get annihilated by Cabba sneezing...

[Bullza]

The idea that another universe has powerful fighters that crap on Super Saiyan God Goku is that hard to believe?

That's part of it yes. It's hard to believe that Frost, Cabba and Magetta are all dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Not just that but the idea that Goku would be as strong as Super Saiyan God normally but then can still multiple his power in the same way tens or hundreds of times over which does not fit with the Battle of Gods story or what was said.

So instead of beating down this tiresome topic where do you guys think Basil is sitting in power?

Well Basil looks to transform in the next episode which would mean it's probably because Buu got the upper hand against him forcing Basil to transform. So yeah before transforming probably Super Saiyan 2 tier.

[HeroR]

The idea that another universe has powerful fighters that crap on Super Saiyan God Goku is that hard to believe?

That's part of it yes. It's hard to believe that Frost, Cabba and Magetta are all dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Not just that but the idea that Goku would be as strong as Super Saiyan God normally but then can still multiple his power in the same way tens or hundreds of times over which does not fit with the Battle of Gods story or what was said.

So instead of beating down this tiresome topic where do you guys think Basil is sitting in power?

Well Basil looks to transform in the next episode which would mean it's probably because Buu got the upper hand against him forcing Basil to transform. So yeah before transforming probably Super Saiyan 2 tier.

Right and remember when Freeza was the undisputed strongest in the universe. Or how about when Beerus came along and made the levels in the Buu Saga look like pussy level. Or how about the beginning of Z when the two strongest beings on Earth got their asses beat by a low class mook.

And I don't see how Goku being able to multiple his level doesn't fit with Battle of Gods' story, which was about Goku not being able to beat Beerus despite all his efforts and Beerus didn't even fully bare his teeth.

[TheMikado]

Frieza to this day is still the undisputed naturally born strongest mortal in the universe that we know of.

[ekrolo2]

Right and remember when Freeza was the undisputed strongest in the universe. Or how about when Beerus came along and made the levels in the Buu Saga look like pussy level. Or how about the beginning of Z when the two strongest beings on Earth got their asses beat by a low class mook.

And I don't see how Goku being able to multiple his level doesn't fit with Battle of Gods' story, which was about Goku not being able to beat Beerus despite all his efforts and Beerus didn't even fully bare his teeth.

You're ignoring context, though. 16, 17 and 18 have no business being as strong as they are, this is true but 19, 20 and Cell did. Majin Boo also did by being an ancient evil who killed Gods as a hobby and Beerus operates on much the same backstory.

Cabba is shown to be a young rookie who isn't particularly experienced in battle yet I'm supposed to believe he's SSGod tier? Hell to the no. Then there's the whole fact that no Saiyan, in the ENTIRETY of U6, never got agitated in battle or by the death of a loved one or got lost in rage to turn into a Super Saiyan besides Cabba. Really? Once again, hell the fuck naw.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, I went to check some facts about Ressurrection F Arc and Freeza confirmed Base Goku was unexpectedly much stronger than Majin Boo. Not only that, Goku confirmed he had the power of Super Saiyan God in his normal form, going blue when using Super Saiyan.

Though I don't like it, I can't deny this ridiculous idea that Cabba and Great Saiyaman are stronger than Super Saiyan God has some basis. I would prefer to think Goku and Vegeta's supressed forms were intentionally nerfed to add some tension to Champa Arc, but the show was never straightforward about this.

[incarnati0n]

Well, I went to check some facts about Ressurrection F Arc and Freeza confirmed Base Goku was unexpectedly much stronger than Majin Boo. Not only that, Goku confirmed he had the power of Super Saiyan God in his normal form, going blue when using Super Saiyan.

Though I don't like it, I can't deny this ridiculous idea that Cabba and Great Saiyaman are stronger than Super Saiyan God has some basis. I would prefer to think Goku and Vegeta's supressed forms were intentionally nerfed to add some tension to Champa Arc, but the show was never straightforward about this.

But that's all, you only see evidence of them being that strong in base in the roF arc. If they were that strong in base why would they need to transform agaisnt the U6 fighters besides Hit? Why would Goku need to go ssj3 against future Trunks, why would he go ssj against Gohan? See the problem? After the fight with frieza they were never portrayed to be that strong in base form.

[pacz360]

Well, I went to check some facts about Ressurrection F Arc and Freeza confirmed Base Goku was unexpectedly much stronger than Majin Boo. Not only that, Goku confirmed he had the power of Super Saiyan God in his normal form, going blue when using Super Saiyan.

Though I don't like it, I can't deny this ridiculous idea that Cabba and Great Saiyaman are stronger than Super Saiyan God has some basis. I would prefer to think Goku and Vegeta's supressed forms were intentionally nerfed to add some tension to Champa Arc, but the show was never straightforward about this.

But that's all, you only see evidence of them being that strong in base in the roF arc. If they were that strong in base why would they need to transform agaisnt the U6 fighters besides Hit? Why would Goku need to go ssj3 against future Trunks, why would he go ssj against Gohan? See the problem? After the fight with frieza they were never portrayed to be that strong in base form.

Base goku was able to fight beerus while the latter was in monaka suit and and did fine also had their fight stop by whis before he couldn't do shit to beerus and was one shotted In bog as ssj3
Base goku was able to compete with base copy vegeta who stomped ssj3 gotenks just before so no the base forms are still strong.

[Bullza]

Right and remember when Freeza was the undisputed strongest in the universe. Or how about when Beerus came along and made the levels in the Buu Saga look like pussy level.

Not really the same. They actually made it clear how the Androids and Beerus stood up to previous characters and forms. Something that hasn't been done with the Universe 6 characters hence all the confusion.

And I don't see how Goku being able to multiple his level doesn't fit with Battle of Gods' story, which was about Goku not being able to beat Beerus despite all his efforts and Beerus didn't even fully bare his teeth.

Super Saiyan God Goku was strong enough that Beerus told him that he briefly regretted seeking him out. That doesn't fit with the idea that he'd actually be thousands of times stronger than him.

He used 10% of his power against Vegeta and surely considerably more against Goku. Doesn't make sense when just 1% would have been more than enough to stomp both.

[ekrolo2]

He used 10% of his power against Vegeta and surely considerably more against Goku. Doesn't make sense when just 1% would have been more than enough to stomp both.

A statement that continues to break everything even now, specifically thanks to KK. It basically means current Blue Goku has to be under 10% of Beerus' power so Goku doesn't match or overshoot past him with KKX10.

[ssbgoku]

He used 10% of his power against Vegeta and surely considerably more against Goku. Doesn't make sense when just 1% would have been more than enough to stomp both.

A statement that continues to break everything even now, specifically thanks to KK. It basically means current Blue Goku has to be under 10% of Beerus' power so Goku doesn't match or overshoot past him with KKX10.

Well the same can be said about KK being brought back unecessary, or at least being possible to combine with divine clad ki transformations instead of only working with base form(Earthlings would have just advantage and be more usefull learning it, instead we got Saiyan by goku increasing gap to rest's cast)...

Also even if Beerus used 1%, then still even currently it wouldn't make sense as ssg would have to be stronger, maybe 6%, and ssb is even stronger which could be 8%( Future Trunks arc) which would make him(7% in u6). Then Hit vs goku showed that goku had to become ten times stronger then before so without kaioken would be 80% of beerus, adding kkx10 over it give us 800% beerus which is gg whis, and maybe even zeno's guardians.

For me it would be great and fine for base goku/vegeta to be retconn(explained somehow) to be super buu level now, and in rof being majin buu's level(fat buu).

[Hugo Boss]

Well, I went to check some facts about Ressurrection F Arc and Freeza confirmed Base Goku was unexpectedly much stronger than Majin Boo. Not only that, Goku confirmed he had the power of Super Saiyan God in his normal form, going blue when using Super Saiyan.

Though I don't like it, I can't deny this ridiculous idea that Cabba and Great Saiyaman are stronger than Super Saiyan God has some basis. I would prefer to think Goku and Vegeta's supressed forms were intentionally nerfed to add some tension to Champa Arc, but the show was never straightforward about this.

But that's all, you only see evidence of them being that strong in base in the roF arc. If they were that strong in base why would they need to transform agaisnt the U6 fighters besides Hit? Why would Goku need to go ssj3 against future Trunks, why would he go ssj against Gohan? See the problem? After the fight with frieza they were never portrayed to be that strong in base form.

I think pacz360 covered part of what I would say. But, in another hand, I think we should ask ourselves. Should the show confirm again when the Base Saiyans are god level? Isn't it something that we should consider already established and move on? I think the problem is trying to make sense of some events, like the ones you've pointed. I could live with Cabba, Frost, Magetta and even Trunks, but the worst is Gohan. Seems like everyone is pulling prodigious vibes. Perhaps, it's like Kibito says: "Odd.. But speculating will not give us answers." These events' portrayal might be changed without any explanation.