Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I felt that could be posted on the Super strenght thread, but I'll stick with this one:

You guys feel that Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 had surpassed their "tiers" on Super? Something like:

SSJ Goku (post BoG/RoF/FT or ToP) > Super Perfect Cell
SSJ2 Goku (post BoG/RoF/FT or ToP) > Pure Boo
SSJ3 Goku (post BoG/RoF/FT or ToP) > Boohan

Yes.

[Noah]

Yes.

Spoiler:

Might as well that that into account?


Also how's the manga about the same subject?

[ZombieVito]

Yes.

Spoiler:

Might as well that that into account?


Also how's the manga about the same subject?

Goku is playing around here. Gohan is confirmed to be = to his Boo arc self in episode 88.

For base Goku in the manga we only have that he is way stronger than Shin and all other Kaioshins by the ToP.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes.

Spoiler:

Might as well that that into account?


Also how's the manga about the same subject?

They’re just sparring. I’d say at least SSJ Goku is = SSJG going by how BoGs ends. I’m not sure where Base Goku fits though… Is SSJG 50x SSJ3 Vegetto?

The manga skips RoF altogether, so we just know they’re abobe Piccolo and a rusty SSJ Gohan.

[ZombieVito]

They’re just sparring. I’d say at least SSJ Goku is = SSJG going by how BoGs ends. I’m not sure where Base Goku fits though… Is SSJG 50x SSJ3 Vegetto?

I honestly have no idea. I'm redoing my levels and I'm at a loss where to put them. I personally don't have SS Goku = SSG post BoG. It just bloats every up.

Also Commeson Vegeta did beat SS3 Gotenks fairly easily but he also didn't managed to defuse him so that implies the gap isn't dimensions in size but then Freeza bloats everything up the arc before this since the gap between his 1st form and Final for is over 200 times big and he's stronger than SS Gohan on the former. Unless Freeza modified his suppression forms after being revived but that's never even implied.

[SoulSurj]

They’re just sparring. I’d say at least SSJ Goku is = SSJG going by how BoGs ends. I’m not sure where Base Goku fits though… Is SSJG 50x SSJ3 Vegetto?

Yeah, (BoG) Ss Goku = (BoG) Ssg Goku at the end of the arc so Goku's base form is 50x weaker than that and rises a little as the series progresses. As far as Super is concerned, Ss fusion and the ritual are around the same level of power because neither Ss fusion nor Ssg had enough power to beat Beerus. Goku does give a slight edge to Ssg though. The manga doesn't even say anything about Goku's power in the BoG arc so we just have to assume the manga is the same as, or ends up being the same as, the anime and movie later. The movie has a slight edge over the anime and manga because Goku is able to turn Ssg a second time and reach 60% of the power Beerus used during BoG but that's all we know.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

They’re just sparring. I’d say at least SSJ Goku is = SSJG going by how BoGs ends. I’m not sure where Base Goku fits though… Is SSJG 50x SSJ3 Vegetto?

I honestly have no idea. I'm redoing my levels and I'm at a loss where to put them. I personally don't have SS Goku = SSG post BoG. It just bloats every up.

Also Commeson Vegeta did beat SS3 Gotenks fairly easily but he also didn't managed to defuse him so that implies the gap isn't dimensions in size but then Freeza bloats everything up the arc before this since the gap between his 1st form and Final for is over 200 times big and he's stronger than SS Gohan on the former. Unless Freeza modified his suppression forms after being revived but that's never even implied.

They’re just sparring. I’d say at least SSJ Goku is = SSJG going by how BoGs ends. I’m not sure where Base Goku fits though… Is SSJG 50x SSJ3 Vegetto?

I honestly have no idea. I'm redoing my levels and I'm at a loss where to put them. I personally don't have SS Goku = SSG post BoG. It just bloats every up.

Also Commeson Vegeta did beat SS3 Gotenks fairly easily but he also didn't managed to defuse him so that implies the gap isn't dimensions in size but then Freeza bloats everything up the arc before this since the gap between his 1st form and Final for is over 200 times big and he's stronger than SS Gohan on the former. Unless Freeza modified his suppression forms after being revived but that's never even implied.

I'm thinking of something like this: Kuririn says they don't need Goku or Vegeta if Boo is around, so Mr Boo > 1st form Freeza. Let's put him on Majin Vegeta's level. Throw the boost Freeza gets when he goes to 50 or 70%, and there's RoF Base Goku, some 110-160x Majin Vegeta. I'm sure this is above Gotenks.

As for how Base/SSJ Goku compares to SSJG, I'm not sure. He does absorb SSJG's power, but then he slacks off to work and still considers himself weaker than Beerus:

Episode 16
Time: 5:18
Context: Goku is driving the tractor
Goku: “Just sitting there is making me soft all over. I’ve gotta train and get even stronger, or I ain’t ever gonna catch up to Beerus-sama.”

I have no idea when was it that Goku realized Beerus lied about using 100% on him, but when Beerus wakes up and sees Goku and Vegeta he doesn't think they could give him a good fight. A couple episodes later he challenges them, but Goku backs down saying Beerus is too strong. I have no idea if SSJB is being taken into account here.

Is it actually canon that fusions will defuse if hit hard enough? I only remember that happening in Wrath of the Dragon.

[Hugo Boss]

Also how's the manga about the same subject?

It ignores all “SSGod power absorbed into base form” implications. Goku doesn’t fight in his base form until the tournament against Champa’s team, where he doesn’t accomplish anything worth mentioning.

It’s only in Moro arc, after Goku is trained by Merus and Vegeta by Pybara, that we get the feel the base forms are much stronger, but still their opponents are just Moro goons.

In Granolah arc, Goku has added ultra instinct to his base form and Vegeta can use destruction at a small scale. Goku apparently can perform almost on equal ground with SS Vegeta, but his ultra instinct failed him at a crucial moment, so it’s difficult to have a clear assessment.

[ZombieVito]

I'm thinking of something like this: Kuririn says they don't need Goku or Vegeta if Boo is around, so Mr Boo > 1st form Freeza. Let's put him on Majin Vegeta's level. Throw the boost Freeza gets when he goes to 50 or 70%, and there's RoF Base Goku, some 110-160x Majin Vegeta. I'm sure this is above Gotenks.

As for how Base/SSJ Goku compares to SSJG, I'm not sure. He does absorb SSJG's power, but then he slacks off to work and still considers himself weaker than Beerus:

Episode 16
Time: 5:18
Context: Goku is driving the tractor
Goku: “Just sitting there is making me soft all over. I’ve gotta train and get even stronger, or I ain’t ever gonna catch up to Beerus-sama.”

I have no idea when was it that Goku realized Beerus lied about using 100% on him, but when Beerus wakes up and sees Goku and Vegeta he doesn't think they could give him a good fight. A couple episodes later he challenges them, but Goku backs down saying Beerus is too strong. I have no idea if SSJB is being taken into account here.

Is it actually canon that fusions will defuse if hit hard enough? I only remember that happening in Wrath of the Dragon.

I actually have 1st form Freeza at 5.3 Billion so his 50% would be 600 Billion if we follow the same form gaps as Namek. This still feels like a lot and bloats everything later on. Part of me wishes Saiyan Beyond God was real tbh.

Now that you mentioned it, no. Only M13 has it. They do defuse rather quickly off screen in the BoG film and arc though. I guess Commenson Vegeta didn't go all out on them if Gotenks stayed alive for an entire 5 minutes.

[Koitsukai]

Wasn't it stated that Commeson Vegeta was using the Beyond God thing-ish against Gotenks, and not the typical base form?

That would put FF Freeza slightly above Gotenks, considering the latter landed 0 blows and Freeza traded a few with Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I actually have 1st form Freeza at 5.3 Billion so his 50% would be 600 Billion if we follow the same form gaps as Namek. This still feels like a lot and bloats everything later on. Part of me wishes Saiyan Beyond God was real tbh.

Now that you mentioned it, no. Only M13 has it. They do defuse rather quickly off screen in the BoG film and arc though. I guess Commenson Vegeta didn't go all out on them if Gotenks stayed alive for an entire 5 minutes.

Works fine by me, but Saiyan Beyond God would explain so much tbh. An invisible transformation makes a bit more sense than Goku being arbitrarily suppressed all the time or folks like Trunks or Roshi randomly being above Z Vegetto.

Wasn't it stated that Commeson Vegeta was using the Beyond God thing-ish against Gotenks, and not the typical base form?

That would put FF Freeza slightly above Gotenks, considering the latter landed 0 blows and Freeza traded a few with Goku.

IIRC the same explanation from RoF about “A Super Saiyan God with the power of a Super Saiyan” is recycled here, but since the ToP revealed SSJG is still a thing the concept has died off. Plus nobody ever noted Base Goku has God Ki, only with God and Blue.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What’s the fusion boost for Merged Zamasu? For both Vegetto and Kefla (A+B)*20 fits perfectly, and going by Vados it’s the bare minimum. It looks to high for Initial Merged Zamasu though… The Saiyans caught up pretty quickly.

[ZombieVito]

What’s the fusion boost for Merged Zamasu? For both Vegetto and Kefla (A+B)*20 fits perfectly, and going by Vados it’s the bare minimum. It looks to high for Initial Merged Zamasu though… The Saiyans caught up pretty quickly.

I gave up a long time ago on giving a static boost to fusion. The boost is as the plot requires.

Seeing as Goku needed Kaioken x10 (Preview did say he will do a life risking attack in the episode and Kaio forbade him for doing the x10 variant since it was very risky so it fits) to overpower Fused Zamasu then his fusion boost is less than that. I settled with a 5 times fusion boost myself.

Manga Zamasu actually is confirmed to have a big fusion boost so I have it at 10 times since SSB is implied to be 5 times SSG, making CSSB a nicely 50 times boost from SSG.

[Kaboom]

I don't think any method of Fusion is all that formulaic or predictable. I believe the results can vary a lot depending on how compatible the two individuals are, mostly boiling down to how similar they are in physiology, power level, mindset/personality, etc. You don't NEED to be similar in body and power for Potara Fusion like you do for the Fusion Dance, but it still yields a better result if you are.

So an optimal pairing like Goku and Vegeta, Goten and Trunks, or even Kale and Caulifla would get a lot out of Fusion and end up crazy-strong. But a badly-matched pair, not so much. The original story suggested that Goku fusing with either Dende or Mr. Satan would barely benefit him at all, or possibly even make him weaker.

So all that said, I think Merged Zamas lies somewhere in the middle. The one department where Black and Zamas are a very good match is obviously in mind, because they're literally the same person on the inside. But in the other areas, they're a bad match. One is in his original Core-Person body while the other is in a full-blood Saiyan body, the latter of which was stolen expressly because it was WAAAAAAAY stronger than the former. So the way I see it, the differences hold back the one similarity, leaving Merged Zamas a fairly effective but less-than-optimal Fusion. He might only be a few times stronger than Black on his own, rather than tens of times stronger like a better-matched pair would be.

Which would line up with at least the manga version of the Zamas arc, where if I recall Blue Goku and Vegeta could still at least put up a good fight for a while before resorting to Fusion themselves.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I totally agree that there isn’t a formula to fusion, the show all but says as much when Potara is introduced in the Boo Saga. It’s just a happy coincidence that Vegetto, Gogeta and Kefla all work with the same boost in my numbers, and I wonder if the same could work for Zamasu.

Merged Zamasu is an interesting case because everybody treated him like he was a Beerus tier character, saying his power was pretty much endless and all. Then the Saiyans went ahead and kicked his ass. Granted they were using blasts that probably were heavily charged, but it’s still quite an anti-feat for Zamasu if I ever saw one.

Fusion compatibility is a pretty vague thing. Goku and Vegeta were a good match because they were opposites, yet 17 and 18 would also be great because they’re siblings? I guess as long as both parties aren’t neutral to each other (like if Goku and Dende merged) or have a strong hierarchy between them (Kibito’s whole existence is to be Shin’s butler) they’ll have good chemistry for fusion. And that’s not even getting into their powers.

[Koitsukai]

I've been thinking that fusion compatibility -manga only- could also be based on how NOT close the fusees are. This is of course, not conceived with this in mind, but there is a pattern nevertheless.

OP fusions: Gogeta, Vegito. Both with rivals as fusees, two guys that do work together but are fundamentally rivals and keep on trying to surpass the other, even to this day.

Lackluster fusions: Kefla, Gotenks, Zamasu, Kibitoshin.
Kefla was somewhat stronger than Kale, basically the power of one fusee and the technique of the other. The fusees are close friends, like protege/student/protector.

Zamasu was a similar case. He is much stronger than Black, but only Perfect Blue tier. Black and Zamasu are basically the same person, they see eye to eye on everything.

Kibitoshin: God-Follower relationship. One worships the other, and Shin does not look down on Kibito either. They are very alike.

Gotenks: the fusees weren't that far from the adults, yet their fusion at FP is just on the next level of SS3 Goku, and only after entering the ROSAT. So, a fusion that needed to train even though the fusees were relatively close to Goku and Vegeta. Goten and Trunks are BFFs, they bicker but aren't rivals like their fathers.


While Vegito, the rival fusion, only with SS surpassed Gotenks' FP, and in base surpassed Zamasu.
DBS Base Gogeta would be also on par with SS Kefla, if not stronger.
It could be that is easier for similar minds to blend together thus not providing that much power; and minds that don't blend at all, do create much more power, perhaps in the process of merging water and oil is when the rival boost comes to fruition, having a fighter that is worlds above the fusees.

To be fair, it probably comes down to PAWA and this most likely is just a happy coincidence.

[Kaboom]

Honestly, I would think that Goku and Vegeta being direct rivals just makes them even more similar and a better match for Fusion. Their competition for strength gives them a shared mindset of "I'm gonna be the strongest, stronger than this other guy," which kind of results in a yin-yang relationship where they, well... complete each other.

[Goku9001]

My thought process behind Merged Zamasu being so weak was both a result of the power difference between Goku Black and Zamasu and their incompatible physiologies given that this one of the criteria measured by fusion when fusion is first introduced by Goku. This was also hinted when Goku opted out of fusing with Dende and the power difference likely has a huge factor given how Goku is reluctant in fusing with Hercule, believing he'd grow even weaker. Not only would their incompatible physiologies make Merged Zamasu weaker but Merged Zamasu would logically be much closer to Goku Black when his fusing partner was much weaker than his own strength.

The same is likely the case with Kefla. Kale was so much stronger that Kefla only inherited Kale's power. But they were so compatible that Kefla inherited the battle experience of Caulifa as well allowing her movements to be more unpredictable and seemingly much faster in comparison to Kale's.

In the case of Gogeta/Vegito, they have both. Their powers are comparable to eachother that brings the fusion's power much higher relative to both of their strengths and their compatibility both as Saiyans and their drive to be the strongest brings out Gogeta's powers to the fullest.

[LightBing]

How would everyone rate characters by potential? While it's something ever-changing there's clearly a trend, Freeza for example has consistent enormous potential.

So giving 100 to the highest potential here goes(this is a numbers thread afterall):

Angels - 100 - Hard to say how much they train but fair to say they have a genetic advantage.
Broly - 90 - Not much to say.
Gohan - 75 - Consistently talked as the prodigy he might rate higher but this seems like a good placement.
Freeza - 70 - He might be way higher, perhaps better than Broly? His 3 months of training are silly. All this said he's might still be below the other prodigies.
Oob - 50 - For plot reasons this should be his minimum.
Piccolo - 50 - Referred as a super prodigy with a Nail on top. New movie

Spoiler:

The new movie took him in line with most Super characters I think

Goten and Trunks - 40 - Ahead of their parents for sure. They don't train so we don't know much more.
Jiren - 35 - He seemed like he trained a lot.
Goku and Vegeta - 30 - They are insane but train far more than all characters.
Beerus - 10 - He's thousand of years old or millions, I don't remember. But he sleeps a lot...
Human Z Fighters - 2 - Clearly out performed.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How would everyone rate characters by potential? While it's something ever-changing there's clearly a trend, Freeza for example has consistent enormous potential.

So giving 100 to the highest potential here goes(this is a numbers thread afterall):

Angels - 100 - Hard to say how much they train but fair to say they have a genetic advantage.
Broly - 90 - Not much to say.
Gohan - 75 - Consistently talked as the prodigy he might rate higher but this seems like a good placement.
Freeza - 70 - He might be way higher, perhaps better than Broly? His 3 months of training are silly. All this said he's might still be below the other prodigies.
Oob - 50 - For plot reasons this should be his minimum.
Piccolo - 50 - Referred as a super prodigy with a Nail on top. New movie

Spoiler:

The new movie took him in line with most Super characters I think

Goten and Trunks - 40 - Ahead of their parents for sure. They don't train so we don't know much more.
Jiren - 35 - He seemed like he trained a lot.
Goku and Vegeta - 30 - They are insane but train far more than all characters.
Beerus - 10 - He's thousand of years old or millions, I don't remember. But he sleeps a lot...
Human Z Fighters - 2 - Clearly out performed.

Not going to include the angels because we really don’t know anything about them. As far as we know they’re already born at Hakaishin level (See Merus) might be stagnated at the level. That’s a very small window of improvement compared to what everyone else has.

Broly - 100
Freeza - 90
Trunks - 80
Gohan/Goten - 75
Androids - 65
U6 Saiyans - 60
Vegeta - 50
Average Saiyan - 40
Goku - 35
Piccolo - 30
Yajirobe - 10
Yamcha - 9
Kuririn - 8
Tenshinhan - 7
Chaozu - 5

Broly is definitely the strongest. Just compare his enraged PL of 10,000 as a baby to Gohan capping at 1,307. Also literally reaches SSJB level within a single fight. Freeza’s gains are also more impressive than anything Gohan has even shown. Boo is definitely up there with them, but I don’t know where exactly. Same for Oob.

Goten is at least as gifted as his brother, maybe even more given how he already rivaled his brother without any formal training, but that just might be because of the environment he grew up in. Trunks should be more gifted since he’s the soon of a superior Saiyan, and is stronger than Goten. Again the environment matters a lot: While Present Trunks grows fairly strong at a young age, Future Trunks has a stunted growth until Super due to his living conditions.

The Androids have a lot of potential. 18 with little to no training seems to be more powerful than even Piccolo in the Tournament of Power, and we know how strong 17 is but I’d like to point out he does tell Goku he’s been training in the anime, and presumably a lot. Akira Toriyama’s explanation of how environment affects power comes from the S-Cells interview, but I think it applies to all fighters as a way of explaining the uneven pacing of their improvements throughout the series.

U6 Saiyans are definitely better than their U7 counterparts, as shown genetically by the lack of tail. Their environment might have something to do with it too, but I’m not sure. Vegeta has more potential than Goku. Born in a higher class with a higher power level, was stronger most of his life and is shown to surpass Goku in equal conditions. Goku only surpasses Vegeta because he is more of a genius and always figures out a way to stay ahead, according to Majin Vegeta. I’d say Vegeta is at the higher end of Saiyan potential and Goku is lower, maybe even lower than Raditz who was born an elite but failed to realize his potential.

Piccolo is as much of a prodigy as a Namekian can be. Dragon Clans are pretty weak, human level potential. Sure they’re stronger (Compare average PLs: Humans are 5, Old Namekians hundreds or low 1000s) but they don’t have room to grow. Not sure about Namekian Warriors. Kuririn ended up surpassing Nail with the potential unlock, and while we’re never told Nail got one, why wouldn’t he? On the other hand, Dragon Books say Namekian Warriors have 4 stars of potential, while Saiyans have 5 and Humans only 1.

Anyway, back to Piccolo. Kami before splitting was said to be a Dragon type Namek with the most potential of any Namek. Piccolo is a warrior type, and also has Nail’s pool to draw from. Saonel and Pilina have the entirety of the Namekian potential on their hands, but we don’t know if they had a super genius like Piccolo/Katatz Jr in their universe.

Finally, the humans. I like the idea that the lazier, the more gifted. Yajirobe was pretty powerful for a lazy guy, and Tenshinhan training his whole life fails to surpass a slacking off Kuririn.

Not including Jiren or Beerus because we have no idea on their backgrounds. Jiren might have been training for millions of years as far as we know. Same for Beerus, and we barely even know his true strength. I’d like to point out Zamasu is at least as gifted as Beerus, if not more according to Goku. This is of course a huge deviation of the potential of most Kaios and Kaioshins.