Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[IKevinX]

But thanks. your comment means a lot.

so did I got this detail wrong,when he was fighting Goku black,Vegeta was at full power when he ate that senzu and it didn't nothing to Goku black at ssj2[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't follow. Vegeta as a SSB actually did more damage to post zenkai Black in the manga than he ever did in the anime. But he was confident he could put up a fight. And it was said that the Senzu Vegeta ate didn't power him up.

After reading the manga, I am half certain Vegeta got caught offguard against Black. Because after they went toe to toe.

What would we qualify that as to keep consistency?

I don't know what you could say about that. By all accounts I really do think that the the anime tried to portray Super Saiyan and then Base Goku as being as stronger than Super Saiyan God to match what was established in the movies.

That still seemed to apply during the Copy Water saga apparently.

If something has changed since then and they've done a silent retcon of his power then I don't know how that could be consistent but they might not have at all.

At the moment whether Base Goku is stronger than God or Super Saiyan 3 Goku is weaker than God you couldn't really give a definite answer to and that's where all the confusion is coming from.

The manga says God > SSJ3. The anime at one point had SSJ > God. Is that still the case or have they changed it? Who knows anymore.

I'm actually making a video about the two base theory aswell.

There's no definite answer because Toei kept the Goku god absorb when the manga didn't. So the anime has a free card to use this Saiyan Beyond God form whenever it sees fit.
As it was clearly intended for only a movie trilogy and not fit for an anime adaptation.

When the manga and anime tell the same history, it's evident that there is no Godly base. But when there's "filler", you can see it there.

It's a pickle

[Bullza]

The two base theory just doesn't make any sense to me at all. If Goku really did become a Saiyan Beyond God after fighting Beerus and absorbing Super Saiyan God and he can switch between that and his ordinary Base.....then how does that explain Vegeta?

All Vegeta did was go through six months of hellish physical training with Whis to get back up to Goku's level. He has nothing to switch between, it was a permanent increase in power like it always was.

Plus what people say about them turning God Ki on and off in Base form also doesn't make sense because they didn't have God Ki in Base when they fought Frieza when they were super strong.

The power they displayed when they fought Frieza should just be their normal battle power in Base. Even if there were two bases this one would have to be the weaker of the two anyway.

So whether they are God level or not at the absolute minimum Base Goku and Vegeta should be considerably above Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta making the Copy Water stuff with Gotenks fit perfectly in line.

[ChiefWamsutta]

The two base theory just doesn't make any sense to me at all. If Goku really did become a Saiyan Beyond God after fighting Beerus and absorbing Super Saiyan God and he can switch between that and his ordinary Base.....then how does that explain Vegeta?

All Vegeta did was go through six months of hellish physical training with Whis to get back up to Goku's level. He has nothing to switch between, it was a permanent increase in power like it always was.

Plus what people say about them turning God Ki on and off in Base form also doesn't make sense because they didn't have God Ki in Base when they fought Frieza when they were super strong.

The power they displayed when they fought Frieza should just be their normal battle power in Base. Even if there were two bases this one would have to be the weaker of the two anyway.

So whether they are God level or not at the absolute minimum Base Goku and Vegeta should be considerably above Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta making the Copy Water stuff with Gotenks fit perfectly in line.

This is what I was getting at ... Base Goku and Vegeta, SS1 Goku and Vegeta, SS2 Goku and Vegeta, SS3 Goku should all be below SSGod Goku but above 'My Bulma' Vegeta. This would make sense and be congruent with Roshi saying that Goku found a form stronger than SSGod when he went SSBlue. He would have said it about Base Goku in RoF if he were stronger than SSGod.

So we could say that Goku and Vegeta training with Whis pushed them to a stronger Base form beyond SS3 Buu Saga but below SSGod BoG. I can buy that. I can buy that Zamasu and Future Trunks were in that range. Zamasu was a prodigy and Future Trunks trained with the Supreme Kai and Kibito. Cabba and Frost could be regarded as weaker and Vegeta and Goku were holding back, or you could say that they were in that range too. I just think they should be below SS3 Buu Saga to SSGod BoG because of how unimpressed Vegeta and Goku were with them.

This all works out consistency-wise with RoF Saga, U6 Tournament Saga, Monaka-Beerus, Copy-Water Saga, Future Trunks Saga, and beyond.

However, the biggest issue we have is that in Battle of Gods when Goku loses Super Saiyan God and becomes regular Super Saiyan again ... he and Beerus believe that he didn't lose any power. This one fucking line completely ruins the whole continuity because we never get a statement that says he loses the God power after that. But we need him to lose the God power for this continuity to make sense.

[RehBeh]

Just a question: Is Hirudegān stronger than Base Goku/Vegeta from Super? If we go by powerscale he very well might be, considering his fight against Gotenks in comparison with Copy-Vegeta. Copy-Vegeta landed several blows to Gotenks and he was still standing while Hirudegān defused him with one fucking punch. Plus Goku SSJ was on a stalemate with a weaker SSJ Gohan while Hirudegān solo'd his "Ultimate" state... And it took Trunks to cut it's tail(which by the way is implied to be Hirudegān life/energy sucking-source)
and the ridiculously Over-Powered Dragon Fist to took the monster down(Dragon Fist also beat Super 17 while Son Goku was in his Base, San Xing Long and forced Yi Xing Long to regenerate)

Is this shit legit or am I thinking it too much?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Just a question: Is Hirudegān stronger than Base Goku/Vegeta from Super? If we go by powerscale he very well might be, considering his fight against Gotenks in comparison with Copy-Vegeta. Copy-Vegeta landed several blows to Gotenks and he was still standing while Hirudegān defused him with one fucking punch. Plus Goku SSJ was on a stalemate with a weaker SSJ Gohan while Hirudegān solo'd his "Ultimate" state... And it took Trunks to cut it's tail(which by the way is implied to be Hirudegān life/energy sucking-source)
and the ridiculously Over-Powered Dragon Fist to took the monster down(Dragon Fist also beat Super 17 while Son Goku was in his Base, San Xing Long and forced Yi Xing Long to regenerate)

Is this shit legit or am I thinking it too much?

GT Goku's base is OP as hell. Anyway, SSJ3 Goku was taking hits from Hirudegarn in that movie so Hirudegarn isn't all that strong, Gotenks and Gohan just got nerfed.

[RehBeh]

GT Goku's base is OP as hell. Anyway, SSJ3 Goku was taking hits from Hirudegarn in that movie so Hirudegarn isn't all that strong, Gotenks and Gohan just got nerfed.

You need to take into consideration that Trunks cut it's tail before Goku fought. It gretly reduced it's power.(since it was stated to absorb life energy from the tail)

[TheUltimateNinja]

GT Goku's base is OP as hell. Anyway, SSJ3 Goku was taking hits from Hirudegarn in that movie so Hirudegarn isn't all that strong, Gotenks and Gohan just got nerfed.

You need to take into consideration that Trunks cut it's tail before Goku fought. It gretly reduced it's power.(since it was stated to absorb life energy from the tail)

The tail cutting itself didn't reduce his power, it was his emotions. Goku weakened him by provoking him before launching his Dragon Fist, but he still had to deal with Hirudegarn's real power before he managed to piss him off.

Also, SSJ3 Goku is definitely above Gohan and Gotenks in that movie since he was already stronger than them in the anime version of the Buu Arc, Goku > All is just Toei being Toei.

[Bullza]

He would have said it about Base Goku in RoF if he were stronger than SSGod.

Well there was another thing said in the Resurrection F saga before they fought Frieza from Beerus when he said to Goku "You've become a lot stronger. How about it? Should we?"

Does that mean Goku's stronger from when Beerus last fought him as a God? He's got a lot stronger just since Beerus woke up? He's stronger than he was as a God because he's taking Blue into account?

So we could say that Goku and Vegeta training with Whis pushed them to a stronger Base form beyond SS3 Buu Saga but below SSGod BoG.

It would be much more believable and would also fit with the manga where Goku definitely is weaker than God though it appears he's still much more powerful than he was in the Buu saga.

However, the biggest issue we have is that in Battle of Gods when Goku loses Super Saiyan God and becomes regular Super Saiyan again ... he and Beerus believe that he didn't lose any power.

If anything they both said and showed that after Goku went back to being Super Saiyan his strength only continued to grow from when he was a Super Saiyan God. And you're right there was never anything to say that he lost that power following the fight with Beerus. The complete opposite in fact was implied what with Vegeta needing those intense six months of training to get back up to where he was.

So you'd have to say that after his fight with Beerus, Goku lost this much God power so that he wasn't God tier even as a Super Saiyan 3 but still kept this much God power that allows him to be stronger than Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta and people watching just would never think that.

[RehBeh]

The tail cutting itself didn't reduce his power, it was his emotions. Goku weakened him by provoking him before launching his Dragon Fist, but he still had to deal with Hirudegarn's real power before he managed to piss him off.

That was a minstranslation. No where to be found in the original version.

[ekrolo2]

So where does Base Goku in Super stand in comparison to GT Base Goku?

[Ki Breaker]

So where does Base Goku in Super stand in comparison to GT Base Goku?

Wasn't Goku's base strength supposed to be buu saga SS3 level in gt, the goku freeza faught in rof was leagues above that level, amd he just kept getting stronger after that..

[ekrolo2]

So where does Base Goku in Super stand in comparison to GT Base Goku?

Wasn't Goku's base strength supposed to be buu saga SS3 level in gt, the goku freeza faught in rof was leagues above that level, amd he just kept getting stronger after that..

Except GT operates on the anime's rules where Kid Boo is the strongest one and apparently Goku can take on Rild of comparable power in his Base alone. Hence why I ask how the two compare to one another.

[Bullza]

Just a question: Is Hirudegān stronger than Base Goku/Vegeta from Super? If we go by powerscale he very well might be, considering his fight against Gotenks in comparison with Copy-Vegeta. Copy-Vegeta landed several blows to Gotenks and he was still standing while Hirudegān defused him with one fucking punch. Plus Goku SSJ was on a stalemate with a weaker SSJ Gohan while Hirudegān solo'd his "Ultimate" state... And it took Trunks to cut it's tail(which by the way is implied to be Hirudegān life/energy sucking-source)
and the ridiculously Over-Powered Dragon Fist to took the monster down(Dragon Fist also beat Super 17 while Son Goku was in his Base, San Xing Long and forced Yi Xing Long to regenerate)

I would say no because stomping Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan is something Beerus casually did himself (it was definitely Ultimate Gohan in the movie whether it was as well in Super is debatable I suppose) at less than 10% of his power. Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was likely at an even higher level than what Beerus was at if he had to power up to 10% to beat him.

And then Base Vegeta afterward was enormously more powerful than his Enraged state to the point

1. He'd reached a level he could sense God Ki something he couldn't do before.
2. Goku said he'd powered up that much he was unrecognizable.
3. Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was one shotted by a poke when Beerus was at 10% whereas Base Vegeta was still unconcious after being "hit" by Beerus when he was unrestrained.

So for Hirudegarn to be even stronger than that and then Super Saiyan 3 Goku to be that much stronger still that he could beat him seems a bit much. I could see Hirudegarn being at casual Beerus' level considering they beat Ultimate Gohan with roughly the same ease I guess.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The tail cutting itself didn't reduce his power, it was his emotions. Goku weakened him by provoking him before launching his Dragon Fist, but he still had to deal with Hirudegarn's real power before he managed to piss him off.

That was a minstranslation. No where to be found in the original version.

Ah, I see. Anyway, the gap between Goku and Gohan was tremendous back in the Buu Arc, 4x at least, so even with his tail sliced off Hirudegarn should still be able to oneshot Goku easily.

[Bullza]

Except GT operates on the anime's rules where Kid Boo is the strongest one and apparently Goku can take on Rild of comparable power in his Base alone. Hence why I ask how the two compare to one another.

I don't remember anything that implied Kid Buu as being the strongest but it's been a while since I've seen GT and I watched it dubbed anyway so you'd have to point that out. He'd be the strongest as in he was stronger than Super Buu? Surely not Gohan Buu too?

Even if by some chance it was including Gohan Buu which could make Kid Buu say roughly twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan and then GT Goku was comparable to that then it still shouldn't be nearly enough.

GT Base Goku being two or three times as strong as Ultimate Gohan wouldn't really compare when you could argue that Super Base Goku is maybe over ten times as strong as Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta and he himself could easily be two or three times as strong as Ultimate Gohan already.

[RehBeh]

Ah, I see. Anyway, the gap between Goku and Gohan was tremendous back in the Buu Arc, 4x at least, so even with his tail sliced off Hirudegarn should still be able to oneshot Goku easily.

If you consider that by cutting his tail it lost every life-force it absorbed and Goku resorted to Dragon Fist for the win, I place Hirudegãn(Tail Cut)>SSJ3 Goku and Dragon Fist>Hirudegãn

[RehBeh]

Also Pure Boo was never stated as the strongest, just the most "difficult" one. There's plenty of evidence to support that its not the strongest Majin(in the Japanese version of course).

[ekrolo2]

Didn't Herms, during his rating of the show, constantly say how they reinforce the idea of Kid being the strongest Boo of the anime?

[Dbzk1999]

Also Pure Boo was never stated as the strongest, just the most "difficult" one. There's plenty of evidence to support that its not the strongest Majin(in the Japanese version of course).

The anime flatout has him get called the strongest buu by goku

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[TheUltimateNinja]

Ah, I see. Anyway, the gap between Goku and Gohan was tremendous back in the Buu Arc, 4x at least, so even with his tail sliced off Hirudegarn should still be able to oneshot Goku easily.

If you consider that by cutting his tail it lost every life-force it absorbed and Goku resorted to Dragon Fist for the win, I place Hirudegãn(Tail Cut)>SSJ3 Goku and Dragon Fist>Hirudegãn

I don't see why it would store the life force in its tail, though, it's not like Cell would lose his energy if his tail were sliced off, 16 did just that and he didn't get any weaker.

Also, even if it lost the life force it absorbed I doubt it would lose so much power that it would go from being far above Gohan and Gotenks to a level low enough for Goku to take some hits.

We should probably just ignore manga power logic when it comes to the movie, it's clearly based on the anime version where SSJ3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Buuhan.