Ah, my bad. I considered something similar at one point too.Amigo Ten wrote:Like I said in my long post, they don't hit an absolute limit (or at least hadn't hit it yet), they just have a growth limit.Bussani wrote:If the base forms hit a limit, why is Goku still training his in the Buu saga?Amigo Ten wrote:I just never went along with the "always 50x increase" because it's blatantly obvious that it gets larger throughout the Cell saga, while it's also implied the base forms hit a limit.
I just go with no set multipliers rather than picking a simple one. Much less confusing. Toriyama may have had a number in his head, but numbers are rarely consistent in DB, so the less I have to deal with them the better I say.
Tien > Freeza?
Of course they all got stronger during their training but how much stronger could Goku get by training with Piccolo and Gohan?rereboy wrote:You think that Goku trained for 3 years for the androids and almost 2 years before that in space and didn`t improve at all compared to himself on namek?
I highly doubt that, and it was stated that Vegeta was as strong or more than Goku while fighting the androids, so Vegeta didn`t just reach SSJ. He did more.
100% freeza was already not a match for Goku when he first turned into a SSJ. He would be even more easily defeated if he fought Goku or Vegeta after almost more 5 years of training. I dare say, he would be even more easily defeated than #19 and #20 were.
That`s why I consider them with similar power.
However, the androids (#19 and #20) had the advantage of absorbing ki and could not be sensed, and that`s why they were not as easily defeated as Freeza would have been, despite their similar power.
Also, knowing that Goku started the fight already weakened by the virus and still overwhelming #19 is an important factor. Does this mean #19 was weaker than Freeza? No. But if we take into account that #20 makes us believe he's stronger than #19 and then we see #20 getting beaten by Picoolo, can we really believe they were stronger than 100% Freeza?
Ok, we could say that they were stronger than Freeza just because it's cliche to always have stronger enemies and perhaps Toriyama just wanted to have the story done but I think it's way more interesting to have a weaker (than expected) enemy that eventually becomes stronger than the heroes (and if that was always obvious, we probably wouldn't have so many "which Buu is stronger?" topics). Of course, that's my opinion.
Even so, #19 and #20 were full of crap. From the moment they appeared until #20 ran away, they couldn't win. The only thing they had in their favor was the ability to absorb energy, not having ki to be sensed and having the Z Senshi already scared of them. Those surprise factors didn't last much. #20 was always talking big while at the same time noticing his calculations were way off. And even if they were the original baddies I think things would go pretty much the same, since their special ability was absorbing energy.
Oh yeah, Tenshinhan... Well, I think everyone agrees he's weaker than Piccolo.
I think he meant--and maybe I'm wrong--that Gokû should have been performing better for the amount of effort he was using.Amigo Ten wrote:Fairly sure Piccolo notes at the start of the fight that Goku is using nearly his full power and trying to rush the fight. So while Goku did appear to start weakened, I don't think it was much. For a short while at least he was using almost all his normal power.
She/Her You're right, the wording is tricky, but after that Piccolo says that Goku after turning into a Super Saiya-jin should have more power than that.Amigo Ten wrote:The wording is probably a bit tricky. As far as I know Piccolo's line is "Son Goku is rushing the battle, for some reason. He's already almost at full power... Still, he's in a state like that...".
In my copy, Piccolo says...
"Son Goku is rushing the battle for some reason... He's already giving all he's got... But look at how weak he is..."
I took this to mean that he could tell Goku was fighting with all he's got, but was far weaker than he should have been when doing so. Like he could tell from Goku's shortness of breath and desperateness that he wasn't holding back.
"Son Goku is rushing the battle for some reason... He's already giving all he's got... But look at how weak he is..."
I took this to mean that he could tell Goku was fighting with all he's got, but was far weaker than he should have been when doing so. Like he could tell from Goku's shortness of breath and desperateness that he wasn't holding back.