Trunks vs Cooler

[dbgtFO]

That would work, Kaboom but only if you consider Goku and the rest to not have powered-up that much in those three years since Goku was already a good amount better than Freeza prior to the training.

I seriously don't know how big of increase Goku and Vegeta got from those 3 years of training.

1. I agree with Kaboom, as you can see in that power levels thread, which is kinda dead by now , but whatever.
2. Yeah we don't really know how much more ki they obtained to use in battles, so it is anyones guess.
If you think about it, if gravity training gave the same results for every individual in the world, then logically Vegeta should be able to get a giant boost in his base, if he didn't achieve SSJ pretty fast.

Goku in 100G(MAX not all the time) went from < 8000 to 90.000 in six days!!
Vegeta trained in 300G(MAX in manga), so if we apply the 6 days logic and say he trained in 2 years 8(hours)/7(156 times as much as Goku), then Vegeta's BP should at least be(if we say his base was 2,5 mil.) = 319.000.000!! So yeah.
But as I already implied gravity training might not benefit everyone equally or maybe it's just because of Vegeta's potential being a lot lower than Goku's? Or it could be, that Vegeta was that much stronger than Goku, that his gains were not as great. Either explanation could work IMHO.

[Piccolo Daimao]

2. Yeah we don't really know how much more ki they obtained to use in battles, so it is anyones guess.
If you think about it, if gravity training gave the same results for every individual in the world, then logically Vegeta should be able to get a giant boost in his base, if he didn't achieve SSJ pretty fast.

Goku in 100G(MAX not all the time) went from < 8000 to 90.000 in six days!!
Vegeta trained in 300G(MAX in manga), so if we apply the 6 days logic and say he trained in 2 years 8(hours)/7(156 times as much as Goku), then Vegeta's BP should at least be(if we say his base was 2,5 mil.) = 319.000.000!! So yeah.
But as I already implied gravity training might not benefit everyone equally or maybe it's just because of Vegeta's potential being a lot lower than Goku's? Or it could be, that Vegeta was that much stronger than Goku, that his gains were not as great. Either explanation could work IMHO.

Actually, Goku only got that strong because of him abusing the Zenkais (which is directly stated in the manga). Zenkais appeared to be all but dead post-Freeza arc, only making a return in that ridiculous plot twist where Cell became strong enough to injure SSj2 Gohan. Anyway, I don't think SSj Vegeta was anywhere near 300,000,000.

And in the Boo arc, after Goku mentions that Vegeta must've trained harder than him, Vegeta replies, "No...you're more gifted than me...". I suppose this could suggest that Goku can just gain more power than Vegeta, if even if he doesn't train as hard. Or maybe I'm taking it too literally.

[dbgtFO]

Oh yeah I forgot about the zenkais , but Vegeta would be strong physically at least. His BP just didn't increase by that much then. It could explain, why he was so confident in his base form at the 25th Budokai, but it could also just be a case of him being extremely arrogant, which fits with his personality anyways.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Oh yeah I forgot about the zenkais , but Vegeta would be strong physically at least. His BP just didn't increase by that much then. It could explain, why he was so confident in his base form at the 25th Budokai, but it could also just be a case of him being extremely arrogant, which fits with his personality anyways.

Yeah. As for the 25th Tenka'ichi Budôkai situation, I don't believe Vegeta, who transformed into a SSj against #18 and was even or weaker than her, would suddenly be stronger than Piccolo, who was even with #17 (who was slightly stronger) and doesn't even have a transformation. Vegeta, as always, was just being an arrogant bastard.

[Kaboom]

3 years to train may seem like a long time. But it's not just time that matters, otherwise Goku would have gained millions of "points" in the 3 years between the 22nd and 23rd Budokais, too.

Goku had Piccolo and Gohan as training partners for that time.

If he trained as a Super Saiyan, then he may have been susceptible to quicker growth (as is my pet theory), but he'd be so much stronger than the two of them that he wouldn't get anything out of it regardless, as he wouldn't even break a sweat against them. Training without a challenge isn't training at all.

If he trained in base, that particular problem wouldn't be nearly as severe (it wouldn't take Piccolo long to catch up), but still present. Instead, he wouldn't reap those SSj-accelerated results, so his growth would be slower.

Not only this, but their training wasn't using high gravity or any other special condition, and since becoming a Super Saiyan Goku was no longer reaping himself big zenkais, if any at all.

So all in all, I'd say Piccolo and Gohan probably got more out of that training (especially Pic) than Goku did in comparison to their starting strengths. The best method I could see Goku possibly utilizing is training in base against Piccolo until the green machine got strong enough for Goku to even break a sweat against him as a Super Saiyan.

To put it in numbers, at the 3 years' end I can see Goku and Vegeta in the low-mid 200 millions as Super Saiyans, and Piccolo at around 100 million, or possibly rivalling Freeza's 100%.

[LeprikanGT]

3 years to train may seem like a long time. But it's not just time that matters, otherwise Goku would have gained millions of "points" in the 3 years between the 22nd and 23rd Budokais, too.

Goku had Piccolo and Gohan as training partners for that time.

If he trained as a Super Saiyan, then he may have been susceptible to quicker growth (as is my pet theory), but he'd be so much stronger than the two of them that he wouldn't get anything out of it regardless, as he wouldn't even break a sweat against them. Training without a challenge isn't training at all.

If he trained in base, that particular problem wouldn't be nearly as severe (it wouldn't take Piccolo long to catch up), but still present. Instead, he wouldn't reap those SSj-accelerated results, so his growth would be slower.

So all in all, I'd say Piccolo and Gohan probably got more out of that training (especially Pic) than Goku did in comparison to their starting strengths. The best method I could see Goku possibly utilizing is training in base against Piccolo until the green machine got strong enough for Goku to even break a sweat against him as a Super Saiyan.

To put it in numbers, at the 3 years' end I can see Goku and Vegeta in the low-mid 200 millions as Super Saiyans, and Piccolo at around 100 million, or possibly rivalling Freeza's 100%.

Didn't Vegeta say that Piccolo[fused] was strong than a super saiyan? Or was that the dub, or were we talking JUST after the 3 years training?

[Piccolo Daimao]

3 years to train may seem like a long time. But it's not just time that matters, otherwise Goku would have gained millions of "points" in the 3 years between the 22nd and 23rd Budokais, too.

Goku had Piccolo and Gohan as training partners for that time.

If he trained as a Super Saiyan, then he may have been susceptible to quicker growth (as is my pet theory), but he'd be so much stronger than the two of them that he wouldn't get anything out of it regardless, as he wouldn't even break a sweat against them. Training without a challenge isn't training at all.

If he trained in base, that particular problem wouldn't be nearly as severe (it wouldn't take Piccolo long to catch up), but still present. Instead, he wouldn't reap those SSj-accelerated results, so his growth would be slower.

So all in all, I'd say Piccolo and Gohan probably got more out of that training (especially Pic) than Goku did in comparison to their starting strengths. The best method I could see Goku possibly utilizing is training in base against Piccolo until the green machine got strong enough for Goku to even break a sweat against him as a Super Saiyan.

To put it in numbers, at the 3 years' end I can see Goku and Vegeta in the low-mid 200 millions as Super Saiyans, and Piccolo at around 100 million, or possibly rivalling Freeza's 100%.

Didn't Vegeta say that Piccolo[fused] was strong than a super saiyan? Or was that the dub, or were we talking JUST after the 3 years training?

Yeah, it's just after the 3 years training. Vegeta says that Piccolo is stronger than him, as a Super Saiyan.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I'm just talking from the training. Obviously he totally trumped Goku and Vegeta after re-joining with Kami. But beforehand, he was still strong enough to manhandle #19 and #20, something only otherwise achievable by the two Super Saiyans.

[jackjack]

Is there anything that suggest Trunks got stronger in those 3 years, which is a lot less time for him?

Yeah, Piccolo was heavily implied to be above the level Super Saiyan Trunks was at when he murdered Freeza, but still ended up being weaker than this same Trunks 3 years later, so yeah, Trunks must have improved to stay ahead of Piccolo.

Another one I use to prove my point is Trunks' opinion of those future cyborgs switching from "They are far too powerful... it's hopeless! I was lucky to have made it back alive..." to "They weren't so unbelievably powerful (like the ones that just raped us -_-)... even I could fight back...", indicating that like Gohan improved during the one year between his previous encounter and the one that left him dead, Trunks also did.

And I don't recall Trunks thinking in bring Vegeta and Goku to defeat the Cyborgs.

I never said he did, though he had suggested that they should wait for Goku, or otherwise they wouldn't stand any chance at winning before he got punched in the guts.

I seriously don't know how big of increase Goku and Vegeta got from those 3 years of training.

Some 1.5x or so increase should do it, seeing as I would have Trunks growing from roughly 55% to 85% of future 17 when he came back to help, Goku would pretty much have to gain a similar increase to stay above Trunks (I'd post my numbers if you wanted to see them).

And since in the future he has nobody to train with and no particularly beneficial place or means of training alone, he wouldn't have gotten much stronger, if at all.

Is that why Trunks grew more than enough in strength to close the gap between himself and the Gohan from 3 years back by "training alone"?

[Kaboom]

Is that why Trunks grew more than enough in strength to close the gap between himself and the Gohan from 3 years back by "training alone"?

That was three years. This was 8 months.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Where is this "8 months" coming from? Oh, yeah. Bulma mentions it once, upon actually putting the finishing touches to it. We have Trunks stating "he'll return in 3 yrs", and the Narrator stating it took "3 yrs to fill the time machine up for another trip", which is the last thing mentioned on it.

As much as we're told in the story, it's more implied that it took 3 yrs to fill the time machine with energy, not 8 months.

[dbgtFO]

Is that why Trunks grew more than enough in strength to close the gap between himself and the Gohan from 3 years back by "training alone"?

That was three years. This was 8 months.

I've seen this claim, that Trunks recharged the machine for 8 months a lot, but when was it stated, that it took so long, because I honestly don't remember?
Lol didn't make it in time

[Kaboom]

As much as we're told in the story, it's more implied that it took 3 yrs to fill the time machine with energy, not 8 months.

I did look it up, and the charging time was only ever hinted at in those two instances: as "eight months" for Trunks' first trip in his flashback, and "three years" later on when he beats Cell in his future.

However, Viz's wording of the second instance is just, "three years passed... the time machine finally built up enough power..." Which is a bit vague compared to Bulma flat-out saying "it takes eight months to charge" in the first. So we might have to get Herms or someone check the original wording for us, or maybe dip into supplementary material to figure this little tidbit out for sure.

I still doubt it's 3 years though. Trunks didn't change at all between his first appearances, whereas after those three years passed in the future after he returned for good, he was clearly visibly older in appearance.


EDIT: I checked up on Kanzentai's translations, and the entry for the Time Machine in Daizenshuu 4's Machines section says it only takes 8 months.

All things now considered, I'm inclined to believe that Trunks just purposely waited those 3 years so as to lure out Cell.

[jackjack]

That was three years. This was 8 months.

So? My point was that he could've improved by training alone.

I would rank them as Mecha supp. Freeza (4) Namek Freeza (<<(decreasing)80) < Namek Goku (80) < Trunks (84) < Freeza (120) < Mecha Freeza (130) < Fresh Namek Goku (140) < Yardrat Goku (145).

Is this Trunks (84 mil) at the age of 13 or 17? If you meant the latter, lol, seriously?

[dbgtFO]

That was three years. This was 8 months.

So? My point was that he could've improved by training alone.

I would rank them as Mecha supp. Freeza (4) Namek Freeza (<<(decreasing)80) < Namek Goku (80) < Trunks (84) < Freeza (120) < Mecha Freeza (130) < Fresh Namek Goku (140) < Yardrat Goku (145).

Is this Trunks (84 mil) at the age of 13 or 17? If you meant the latter, lol, seriously?

Sure why not, yeah Trunks is super weak in my book and he was lucky not to fight full powered Freeza

[Senzu_Bean]

Yeah, Piccolo was heavily implied to be above the level Super Saiyan Trunks was at when he murdered Freeza, but still ended up being weaker than this same Trunks 3 years later, so yeah, Trunks must have improved to stay ahead of Piccolo.

When was that? Just asking...

[jackjack]

When flying to meet the 19 and 20, Piccolo makes this comment: "You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…"

Sure why not, yeah Trunks is super weak in my book and he was lucky not to fight full powered Freeza

Mainly because if Goku were almost 2x Trunks (which is a shitload of power), he wouldn't have stated that he was afraid and that he would need to train hard for enemies that Trunks couldn't defeat. Seriously, I would tell you how ridiculously low your placement of Trunks was if you had posted your number for future 17.

[dbgtFO]

When flying to meet the 19 and 20, Piccolo makes this comment: "You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…"

Sure why not, yeah Trunks is super weak in my book and he was lucky not to fight full powered Freeza

Mainly because if Goku were almost 2x Trunks (which is a shitload of power), he wouldn't have stated that he was afraid and that he would need to train hard for enemies that Trunks couldn't defeat. Seriously, I would tell you how ridiculously low your placement of Trunks was if you had posted your number for future 17.

I see it as neither of them used full power when Trunks tested Goku, so Goku could have thought Trunks was stronger than that, but he was wrong of course . My number for 17 in all timelines is 250, using less than ½ power is 110.

[jackjack]

Gohan had already surpassed this "less than ½ power" of 17 (110 mil), and then even this Gohan was surpassed by Trunks, yeah, do the math.

[dbgtFO]

Gohan had already surpassed this "less than ½ power" of 17 (110 mil), and then even this Gohan was surpassed by Trunks, yeah, do the math.

When was Gohan stated to be stronger than ½ power 17? He only seemed confident, and he can't sense their power anyway.
And as for Trunks surpassing Gohan, I think Trunks states it, but then Bulma immediately states afterwards that he wasn't stronger than Gohan. And we all know that Bulma's ki sensing abilities are far superior to Trunks'