How strong did the humans get?

[Rocketman]

Likewise, you already have to accept that the Mega Kikoho multiplies Tenshinhan's power obscenely if you believe it's hurting Cell.

No, I do not.

5,000,000 ain't shit to Cell. That plus a Kaioken x30 ain't shit to Cell.

[Senzu_Bean]

Likewise, you already have to accept that the Mega Kikoho multiplies Tenshinhan's power obscenely if you believe it's hurting Cell.

No, I do not.

5,000,000 ain't shit to Cell. That plus a Kaioken x30 ain't shit to Cell.

You brought the 5,000,000 value, not me.

[Rocketman]

You brought the 5,000,000 value, not me.

...so you think Tien was even farther above that with no gravity training or zenkais?

[Senzu_Bean]

You brought the 5,000,000 value, not me.

...so you think Tenshinhan was even farther above that with no gravity training or zenkais?

None of these are required or are the only required to advance in power after trained by Kaio.

[Rocketman]

None of these are required or are the only required to advance after being trained by Kaio.

I dunno, man. How helpful could training with Chaozu be if Chaozu was too weak to be allowed to fight the Androids?

[Senzu_Bean]

None of these are required or are the only required to advance after being trained by Kaio.

I dunno, man. How helpful could training with Chaozu be if Chaozu was too weak to be allowed to fight the Androids?

Tenshinhan can train with three guys of the same power as himself too.

But the question isn't really how he did it cause we are show that he did it.

[Fox666]

I still don't understand why people claim Tenshinhan has to be super-strong or he wouldn't have shown up against the Androids. He's equally useless against the Androids if he's 50,000 or 5,000,000.

Even 100,000,000 would be nothing...

5,000,000 ain't shit to Cell. That plus a Kaioken x30 ain't shit to Cell.

As far I know, Goku is the only one that mastered the Kaioken (as Kaio stated even himself didn't). And we never heard if a Kaioken beyond 20x is possible.

And even if something like that could be true, it would still be shit. That would be the power that Goku had when he turned SSJ for the first time. That would be shit against Super Piccolo, who is absolute shit against #16, who is a useless shit against Semi-perfect Cell.

[Hellspawn28]

Tenshinhan was able to blast Buu in half, Tenshinhan in the Buu saga should be above Freeza's first or second form.

I think he never did such a thing in the manga. He just stopped a blast that was going to kill Dende. Then Goku sliced Buu in half with a Kienzan, and Buu`s legs took out Tenshinhan in one kick.

Your right since I just re-read the battle, and I forgot that was a filler. Tenshinhan still hold off Cell in his second form, Tenshinhan at the Buu saga should be stronger then he was in the Cell saga since I doubt he stop training like Yamucha did.

[Senzu_Bean]

This isn't a case of "it could be" or "it couldn't be". It is! Tenshinhan hold Semi-Perfect Cell with his Shin Kikoho, something neither Piccolo or #16 are capable of. He generated more power than either of the two could and the power one can generate above his own capabilities is proportional to how strong you are.

You either have Tenshinhan pretty close to Cell which is unlike, Tenshinhan strong enough to be able to generate power enough to do what he did to Cell which is like or Cell pretty damn weak which is impossible. Pick and choose cause you can't have Tenshinhan weak as shit and still generate that Shin Kikoho.

[Kaboom]

You either have Tenshinhan pretty close to Cell which is unlike, Tenshinhan strong enough to be able to generate power enough to do what he did to Cell which is like or Cell pretty damn weak which is impossible. Pick and choose cause you can't have Tenshinhan weak as shit and still generate that Shin Kikoho.

You don't get to hold people to choices and "rules" that you made up.

[Senzu_Bean]

You either have Tenshinhan pretty close to Cell which is unlike, Tenshinhan strong enough to be able to generate power enough to do what he did to Cell which is like or Cell pretty damn weak which is impossible. Pick and choose cause you can't have Tenshinhan weak as shit and still generate that Shin Kikoho.

You don't get to hold people to rules that you made up.

Just because you don't like such thing doesn't mean I'm making shit up. This is as much as made up as Goku get stronger the more Kaioken folds he can withstand.

Placing Tenshinhan at pair with Ginyu when he still is capable of generating an attack stronger than Freeza goes again everything showed and it really isn't more debatable than Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Freeza. The stronger you are, the more you can generate power above of your capabilities.

[Kaboom]

I made up? Cause you don't like such thing doesn't mean I'm making shit up. What I wrote is definitely true and I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Don't think so. I know what I said and I mean it.

You apparently think that Tenshinhan had a battle power at least in the several millions, and that his Shin Kkoho was a massive enough boost, probably several hundred times, to actually hurt Semiperfect Cell. Sure, that's fine.

But there is nothing inherently wrong or impossible about someone wanting to believe the opposite: that Tenshinhan is "only" roughly in the 50,000-100,000 range but that the Shin Kikoho was powerful enough to push Cell back. It is every bit as much a valid and reasonable interpretation as your POV. You do not get to discount it just because you don't like it or subscribe to it, and you especially do not get to tell others they can't believe it either.

Now I'm telling you, as a mod, to stop acting as if you're some sort of grand conductor for power level discussions. You do not get to decide things for people.

So stop it.

[Rocketman]

The Super Duper Kikoho is a strange mixture of the Kikoho and the Kaioken. That is why it is so powerful, not because Tien gained two hundred million points from spit-roasting Choazu.

[Senzu_Bean]

You really should stop abuse your mod powers when stuff goes against what you believe. Since that is how things are from now own I will start claim the most ridiculous things and since you cannot tell others they can't believe in whatever they want I'm looking forward to see what your attitude will be.

The Super Duper Kikoho is a strange mixture of the Kikoho and the Kaioken. That is why it is so powerful, not because Tenshinhan gained two hundred million points from spit-roasting Choazu.

The Kikoho by itself doesn't increase the user's ki. And you cannot be 120,000 and still use a 500x fold multiplier. At 3 million the best you can go is 20x fold.

[Bussani]

You are the one ignoring what you don't like in the story to establish your own interpretation of the events as the only one valid.

First of all, I'm not trying to force my point of view on anyone. I only even posted because I found it strange that "they get as strong as the plot demands" was apparently golden while any logic that questions it was crazy. I don't think one's more valid than the other, since this is all just opinion.

Secondly, I believe I even said that I had nothing against a character being that strong a few pages back; I just said that there progress would be incredible if that were the case. I mean, Goku was lightyears ahead of them by the time they were just barely starting their training with Kaio. Breaking 1,000,000 would be impressive; catching up with Goku's base would be mind blowing.

You failed to mention that they always surpassed the previous villains and Goku's base level in the previous sagas.
And they still are following Goku's footsteps which is everything they've learned with kami or kaio-sama the best teacher in the universe.Goku is not using the gravity chamber too like the other humans,obviously because he has better ways to train.

I didn't "fail to mention it"--I attributed it to them training with Goku's previous masters and always being a step behind him. In fact, they usually made better progress with his masters than he did, which is impressive. But Goku's head-start on them this time was enormous, even without Super Saiyan. For the record, I wouldn't expect Goku to make blinding progress training for the Androids either.

You seem to operate under the logic that the characters are stupid which means they are going to do the same training over and over again farting in the Earth all the time,basically training for fun, when Kame senin instructed all of them in early dragon ball that doing the same training over and over again was pointless.

Now,looking at Tenshinhan comments you can clearly see that he isn't stupid, therefore he states that he´ll mix King Kai's teachings with his own mastering Kaio-sama style and his way of training,because he couldn't expect to surpass Goku doing the same training.

When I say "the same training," I don't mean that they were stupid and never tried anything harder. I mean that Earth is a colossal step down. It's all well and good that they learned and incorporated stuff into their training, but the tools they have available are more limited.

Tenshinhan also says something about testing himself against the androids, AFTER he felt Freeza's supressed power while he was on Earth .So he really must be stupid to show up confident in his training and progresses and let Chaozu behind,after all they came up to fight not to watch,but the problem is that we know the character is not stupid.

If he surpassed the Freeza that it took a Super Saiyan to kill...that'd be even more incredible.

It is funny that the same character later refuses to participate in training regimes that can't make him more or less competitive when he refuses to train in the RoSaT.
You see Ten and Krillin complaining about ssj power which is in the hundreds of millions.
That's the only level established in the manga that they couldn't eventually attain everything else is speculation and presumptions.

Shit, if they'd made as much progress in the time they had like you suggest--in Earth's environment no less--he shouldn't have passed up on 2 years in the Room of Spirit and Time. But I guess he's only allowed to make that sort of progress between arcs?

So,after training with Kaio, they already know the best way to train which means weighted clothing and magical weights that later we see goku using in the other world.
They all started training on their own training regime,because they already learnt the best ways to train from their different masters.

On the other hand,Vegeta is the only one doing the same kind of training over and over again,that's the reason why Goku is always a step away.Goku simply has the most effective way of training in the universe,kaio's way of training.
Why did experts in martial arts, train in the earth if it is useless?Because, they can vastly improve in the Earth using kaio-sama way of training.

What you're telling me is that despite Kaio telling them that training with him on his planet for 158 days is like training on Earth for several thousand years*, they could actually make better progress than that on Earth thanks to what they learned. Please forgive me if I find that to be a bit of a stretch of the imagination. I still think it'd be incredible if they just got themselves into the millions by the Androids' arrival.

*Before anyone says anything, I'm pretty sure Viz changed this line a bit. Check Herms' wonderful Strength Checker for the proper one.

[Kaboom]

You really should stop abuse your mod powers when stuff goes against what you believe. Since that is how things are from now own I will start to support the most ridiculous claim and since you cannot tell others they can't believe in whatever they want I'm looking forward to see what you attitude is.

I don't care anymore what I do or don't believe on the matter. It wouldn't make any difference if I chose to believe that Tenshinhan is actually part Kryptonian and his Kikoho is not only boosted by a Kaio-Ken x5000, but also the power of the sun. I know that it ultimately doesn't matter at all beyond what I decide to put on my own fan-made lists.

At this point, I'm just trying to make it clear that you are not allowed to decide things for other people.

Though I will say this as a sincere warning: Purposely antagonizing a mod is a good way to earn yourself a month's vacation.

[Senzu_Bean]

At this point, I'm just trying to make it clear that you are not allowed to decide things for other people.

Okay, that is good. I just hope it is an universal rule within the forum. That is all.

[Kaboom]

Okay, that is good. I just hope it is an universal rule within the forum. That is all.

It is. Just remember that:

1) People ARE allowed to disagree with others.
2) People ARE allowed to civilly express their reasons for that disagreement.
3)

Be respectful of your peers. There are people of many different nationalities, ethnicities, sexualities, etc. If someone is factually incorrect, do not be afraid to correct them... but be nice about it. In turn, do not be a jerk if someone corrects you on something. Believe it or not, you do not know everything! Your opinions must be expressed with civility. It really should not be so much to ask that we all just act like normal human beings to each other, so that is exactly what we are going to ask of you. Leave the attitude and ego at the door, really, is all we ask!

4)

Purposely antagonizing a mod is a good way to earn yourself a month's vacation.

[Fox666]

At 3 million the best you can go is 20x fold.

Goku with 90,000 and 3,000,000 could use the same Kaioken 10x. I don't really see any reason to assume that Tenshinhan used a Kaioken of N times. In fact, Kaioken sounds like "cheating" to explain how Tenshinhan could hold Cell...

And at all matter, I don't see what difference it does in saying that Tenshinhan had a battle power of 5,000,000 and increased it by 100 times, or he had a battle power of 5,000 and increased it by 100,000.

[p123]

I have Tien at 2,500,000 during the Androids Saga. Also, I have Tien using a 300x multiplier on Shin Kikoho.


I feel that was a good combination not making Tien too strong and not making Shin Kikoho too ridicolous.


IMO, Shin Kikoho definitley causes Cell some discomfort. And if he can cause Cell discomfort he would absolutley obliterate Freeza 100% power. If we replace Cell with Freeza, Freeza would be dust IMO...

Also, with the progressive nature of the series, Tien's blast > 16's punch makes sense IMO...


I have this scenario.. Sorry for the power levels, but it helps show my POV better....


Initial Semi Cell 875,000,000 ( = Imperfect Cell + 17 )
Shin Kikoho 750,000,000 ( 300x multiplier )
16 500,000,000
Imperfect Cell 500,000,000
17 375,000,000
Tien 2,500,000


So I have Shin Kikoho around 82% of Initial Semi Cell's power. I think that power would roughly be about what would happen in that scenario. Clearly way inferior, but not so much one couldn't feel some discomfort or be held back from it. Also, IMO Tien's Shin Kikoho >> Android 16's punch like I said before, which should be around 16's power level of course..