Buu Saga Info

[Amuro Ray]

The Daizenshuu says Gohan and Goten are equals. Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others means Base Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Base Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta. Your reading skills are terrible

The Manga shows Base Gotenks as SSJ2 tier as he survived an encounter with Buu. The Daizenshuu repeats it. What does Gohan have to do with it? The Daiz says Gohan and Goten are equals supporting me.

And who is arguing about Goten? Why does his strength matter? Fusion isn't given multiplier, so Goten + Trunks = Purple for all we know.

Given that the boys are not far behind their fathers in terms of power, simply adding Ssj Goten and Ssj Trunks together as far as power goes would put Ssj Gotenks (prior to the Room of Spirit and Time) at Ssj2 tier not far behind their fathers. And that's just assuming that it's simply adding their battle powers together.

Ssj Goten + Ssj Trunks = Ssj Gotenks (Ssj2 tier battle power)
Ssj2 Gotenks = 2x Ssj Gotenks = 2x Ssj2 battle power
Ssj3 Gotenks = 4x Ssj2 Gotenks = 8x Ssj Gotenks = 8x Ssj2 battle power

That'd put Ssj3 Goku, at best, between Ssj2 and Ssj3 Gotenks in terms of power, and that's just assuming that it adds them together. If it does anything beside just adding them together, then that's going to make Gotenks even stronger.

Where is that ever implied?

[dbzfan7]

Goku could only be stronger then Gotenks if his SSJ form was higher then Gotenks', which it isn't. If that were true then Piccolo and Goku are actually masochists who wanted to see little boys get killed for some reason.

Given that it's stated in the Daizenshuu that Ssj Goten is equal to that of Ssj Gohan,

I don't buy that as that would make Kid Trunks stronger then SSJ Gohan. I know anime is not the most conclusive thing, but you see Gohan beat Goten without much trouble in SSJ.

[Darkprince410]

Given that it's stated in the Daizenshuu that Ssj Goten is equal to that of Ssj Gohan, and Gohan, while weaker than Ssj Goku/Vegeta, isn't by a staggering degree. Likewise, we see that Ssj Trunks is able to go toe-to-toe with his dad, and even though Trunks was weaker, he was able to fight Vegeta intensely enough that Vegeta was having a hard time dodging him.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Equal to the suppressed state that he fought. There is no way in hell that Goten is equal to FPSSJ Gohan. Vegeta was caught off guard. He easily tossed Trunks aside after being hit.

[Kaboom]

Undertaker and Amuro Ray, PLEASE stop multi-posting. It makes threads longer, messier, and more difficult to keep track of than they need to be. There's an "Edit" button, with which you can easily add more to your post after making it, even if you want to insert additional quotes. So please make use of it, because my splicing your posts together is getting tiring.

Also, let's all keep a close eye on our attitudes and keep things shonen, please. A few posts in this thread are getting a little too passive-aggressive.

[Undertaker]

Dai Kaioshin makes Boo weaker, yes. Nothing is mentioned about South Kaioshin so the logical assumption we can conclude from this is South Kaioshin does increase Boo's power.

No we can't. After this, I will ignore any part of your argument that makes such a baseless assumptions.

Why can we make this assumption? Because Evil Boo(Super Boo) later absorbs Gotenks and then Gohan and they were both shown to increase his power. We then see Boo revert to a Buff Boo, the same Boo that he becomes when he absorbed South Kaioshin, and Goku explicitly states his power increased.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Second, we KNOW "Buffbuu" is stronger than Superbuu(or whatever you want to call him) It's stated twice in the manga that I recall, once by Goku and again by Kibito, Kibito also referred to Kidbuu as the most dangerous - his nature of being "unpredictable" is never mentioned (again, this is a fan theory) - so they could only be referring to his strength, correct?

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

I'm sorry, but no. The Kaioshin never calls him the most dangerous. And Goku doesn't call him the most dangerous either. Elder Kaioshin calls him the most troublesome one. but that doesn't necessarily mean strength, now does it?

Fair - but because it isn't mentioned, I'll assume that South Kaioshinn doesn't have any effect on Buu's strength. See how that works, you can't reference yourself as a source. Also, you are correct, I might have been thinking about a line from the anime. What does the guidebooks say about Kidbuu?

In the manga Goku flat out states that, after the Majin powerup Vegeta received, Vegeta was as powerful as him. They were literally equals.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight a bit
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

So if Gotenks surpassed Vegeta's base strength then it would be the same for Goku's base strength.

But it doesn't say base strength, it says surpassed Vegeta and the others and make no mention of SSJ transformations. If they wanted to mention Goku, I sure they would have, considering it is less character lines to write and all, and he is technically stronger.

This has been mentioned before and I have stated what Goku was saying in this sentence:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

Goku says that Vegeta will bring back both Gohan and Gotenks back to life with the wish. So either of them can fight. Goku never implies that they would be be used to fight Pure Boo together. If Goku was implying that they were going to use both boys he would have worded it better. He would have said something like "Oh! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can both fight." The "and" in Goku's sentence is merely pertaining to the wish. If I brought back everybody who died on Earth would you not state that I have also brought Gohan and Gotenks back to life? Because that is correct, right? I brought back both Gohan and Gotenks back to life. I didn't bring back only one. And I certainly would not bring back one without the other. So when Goku says this sentence what he's basically saying is "You'll bring back both Gohan and Gotenks back to life using the dragonballs." and then following that "So they are alive to fight." Again, Goku never explicitly says that they would both be fighting. Goku never says they would both be brought back to life to fight. Goku just says they will be brought back to life so they can fight.

You just repeated what I stated before and added words to the statement to mean what you wanted to mean. I'll point it out to you again, he asked if they should fight - and at no time did he imply that they could win. In fact, as crazy of an idea the Spirt Bomb was, Goku didn't bother to suggest bringing the boys again.

Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

They are talking about strength as this was Krillin's respond. Read before claiming false things. Yes, he also talked about the fact he is pure evil but he also says he is definitely stronger in every way. Also its not like Goku hasnt sensed Pure Evil Ki before. Piccolo Damiao and Piccolo Jr were both pure evil. So it has nothing to do with it being pure evil ki now or anything. Its questioning the sheer power of it.

Krillin asked Piccolo if this transformation "is bad?" Notice Krillin couldn't tell for himself, and Piccolo specifically mentions the nature of the KI, not "how powerful" it is.

He does it again when talking about Gohan -

Chapter: 497 (DBZ 303), P4.1
Piccolo: “Is-is that Gohan…!? No…Something’s different about him…His features are a little different…And he has a different type of ki than before…His softness has vanished too…That’s why I couldn’t tell it was him…”

The Daizenshuu says Gohan and Goten are equals. Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others means Base Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Base Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta. Your reading skills are terrible

The Manga shows Base Gotenks as SSJ2 tier as he survived an encounter with Buu. The Daizenshuu repeats it. What does Gohan have to do with it? The Daiz says Gohan and Goten are equals supporting me.

And who is arguing about Goten? Why does his strength matter? Fusion isn't given multiplier, so Goten + Trunks = Purple for all we know.

And who the hell is "kakashiUzamaki?"

I like Kakashi, but I'm not a Naruto fan in the least. Too slow and boring, and they talk about DBZ filler...

I know you are him.

I think this is an appropriate time to use this.

Facepalm. Krillin says the situation can't be that bad and not Super Buu himself. Again, learn how to read correctly. You seem to twist all the quotes up. Piccolo mentions him being evil but he also talks about his strength later. Again, Krillin mentions the power of the Fusion. Why mentioning it if Piccolo never talked about strength as well? Piccolo says Gohan has different type of ki meaning he is stronger. What else can he mean?

You say the Daiz says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. Well, it says Goten and Gohan are equals so obviously the Daiz refers to Base Gotenks surpassing Vegeta before Rosat and the others after Rosat.

I still think you are kakashi. You can't deny it.

[Amuro Ray]

You CAN NOT be serious, can you?

Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

Again - notice Piccolo talks about the nature of ManjinBuu's KI and not so much the difference in power. Once more, if the difference was drastic, EVERYONE would be aware of it. Also, he makes note to mention there was a physical change as well - specially how Buu is "more suited for battle" why would he do this if he already was talking about his power?

You say the Daiz says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. Well, it says Goten and Gohan are equals so obviously the Daiz refers to Base Gotenks surpassing Vegeta before Rosat and the others after Rosat.

What? This doesn't make any sense - even if Goten is on par with Gohan in SSJ1 - what does that have to do with fusion or Vegeta? The Daiz says that Gotenks doesn't surpass Vegeta until after he powers up leaving the ROSAT, there is nothing more to argue.

[Hitiro]

Fair - but because it isn't mentioned, I'll assume that South Kaioshinn doesn't have any effect on Buu's strength. See how that works, you can't reference yourself as a source. Also, you are correct, I might have been thinking about a line from the anime. What does the guidebooks say about Kidbuu?

So your reason for Pure Boo absorbing the Dai Kaioshin is? If you're assuming South Kaioshin had no effect on his strength then why would Pure Boo feel the need to absorb Dai Kaioshin? Also, you're assuming something while ignoring the evidence. The fact of the matter is as Boo reverted to the Buff Boo his power did increase. So that means the South Kaioshin's power did make Boo stronger. The site doesn't have the bios translations anymore so I'm not sure what it says about Pure Boo.

But it doesn't say base strength, it says surpassed Vegeta and the others and make no mention of SSJ transformations. If they wanted to mention Goku, I sure they would have, considering it is less character lines to write and all, and he is technically stronger.

This is a point I made note of in several posts. It doesn't explicitly say base strength. It could also mean "strength" in terms of the Gotenks succeeding in getting SSJ3 where Vegeta is still only able to use SSJ2. As far as mentioning Goku there is no reason to assume that because they didn't mention him that Gotenks is weaker. If we assume its on about base strength then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku as Base Gotenks > Base Goku >/< Base Vegeta. Also how do we know they aren't talking about Base Gotenks, or SSJ Gotenks, being stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta? He was the only one to fight Fat Boo in this form. And if that is the case then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku again. There are a lot of angles you can tackle this from which put Gotenks above Goku.

You just repeated what I stated before and added words to the statement to mean what you wanted to mean. I'll point it out to you again, he asked if they should fight - and at no time did he imply that they could win. In fact, as crazy of an idea the Spirt Bomb was, Goku didn't bother to suggest bringing the boys again.

No, Goku didn't ask if they should fight. He thought completely that, that was Vegeta's plan. And at no time did Goku imply they would lose either. So that is a null point. And yes, Goku didn't bother to suggest bringing the boys again. But that was stupid. Let me ask you, if you believe that Gotenks and Gohan couldn't handle Pure Boo then why not bring them to the planet to defend Goku while he makes the Genki Dama? Gotenks and Gohan are more powerful than Vegeta and Fat Boo. What was their reason for not getting them to the planet to hold off Pure Boo? This scene is full of inconsistencies. There is literally no reason for them to not bring Gohan and Gotenks to the battle as they would have held Pure Boo off much better than Vegeta or Fat Boo. The characters just act completely retarded. Unless you believe that by some amazingly messed up logic Fat Boo > Evil Boo(Super Boo) and Fat Boo > Gotenks + Gohan. Which would be completely stupid.

Krillin asked Piccolo if this transformation "is bad?" Notice Krillin couldn't tell for himself, and Piccolo specifically mentions the nature of the KI, not "how powerful" it is.

He does it again when talking about Gohan -

Actually Kuririn is saying “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!” He says this because he was still believing Gotenks would still be able to defeat Boo even with Boo's power increase and he's basically asking Piccolo if that is the case any more. Piccolo follows up by saying "That'd be nice, but..." clearly Piccolo has lost faith in the fusion because Evil Boo's power has grown so much. Piccolo does say he's more powerful in every way.

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

And who is arguing about Goten? Why does his strength matter? Fusion isn't given multiplier, so Goten + Trunks = Purple for all we know.

You're missing the point. If Trunks > Goten and Goten = Gohan then if the fusion is Goten + Trunks that would mean Gotenks >= 2 Gohan's. So in other words Gotenks would be 2x more powerful than Gohan. And that is just with an addition of both the fusee's powers. We know however that the fusion does a lot more than that as Goku wouldn't think a SSJ Gotenks could fight against Fat Boo if it just added their powers together.

[Darkprince410]

You say the Daiz says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. Well, it says Goten and Gohan are equals so obviously the Daiz refers to Base Gotenks surpassing Vegeta before Rosat and the others after Rosat.

What? This doesn't make any sense - even if Goten is on par with Gohan in SSJ1 - what does that have to do with fusion or Vegeta? The Daiz says that Gotenks doesn't surpass Vegeta until after he powers up leaving the ROSAT, there is nothing more to argue.

As we've pointed out many times, the entry is very vague as to what form is being referenced. All we know is that Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, that's it. Given what we see though, even if the fusion dance simply adds their battle powers together, Ssj Gotenks before the Room of Spirit and Time is going to be at least as powerful as Ssj2 Gohan. Now, there's no arguing that Ssj2 Goku and Ma-jin Vegeta is stronger than Ssj2 Gohan, but it's not very likely that it's by a staggering degree. Goku and Vegeta would need to be at least twice as strong as Gohan in order for Ssj3 Goku to be equal to a non-existent Pre-RoSaT Ssj3 Gotenks.

Since I highly doubt that Goku is twice as powerful as Gohan is, that'd put Ssj3 Goku as somewhere in between a Pre-RoSaT Ssj2 and Ssj3 Gotenks (if they existed). Then, if you consider Goten and Trunks' training, which substantially increased Gotenks' battle power, that'd put Ssj3 Goku even closer towards Ssj2 Gotenks rather than Ssj3 Gotenks.

This is, of course, just assuming that fusion simply adds their battle powers together. If there's any sort of multiplier implemented after the addition of the two, or a straight up multiplier of the two (like with the Potara), then Gotenks is going to be even that much more powerful than Goku.

[MrFreeze7005]

Super buu >>> Goku is obvious and explicitly stated TWICE, why can't people just get it?

@pakl / undertaker, Amuro Ray is not kakashi.....he never used the size excuse

[Undertaker]

You CAN NOT be serious, can you?

Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

Again - notice Piccolo talks about the nature of ManjinBuu's KI and not so much the difference in power. Once more, if the difference was drastic, EVERYONE would be aware of it. Also, he makes note to mention there was a physical change as well - specially how Buu is "more suited for battle" why would he do this if he already was talking about his power?

You say the Daiz says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. Well, it says Goten and Gohan are equals so obviously the Daiz refers to Base Gotenks surpassing Vegeta before Rosat and the others after Rosat.

What? This doesn't make any sense - even if Goten is on par with Gohan in SSJ1 - what does that have to do with fusion or Vegeta? The Daiz says that Gotenks doesn't surpass Vegeta until after he powers up leaving the ROSAT, there is nothing more to argue.

Super Buu was sensed from the Kaioshin realm and Fat Buu was not so it's a big difference. Piccolo is worried wanting the kids to train despite the fact he was ready to send them fight Fat Buu. Again, Krillin mentions the power of the Fusion? Why mentioning the power if Piccolo was not afraid of Buu's power? Yes, he mention he is evil but later he talks about strength when Goten and Trunks never recognized Buu. He says "he is definitely stronger" implies a big gap.

It has to do with it since if Goten and Gohan are equals as stated in the Daiz so SSJ Gotenks must be leagues ahead of SSJ Goku and son on. The fact you think SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ Goku despite the fact he was stated to be able to beat Fat Buu makes you look like a troll. It's as simple as that. No, the Daiz says that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the other meaning he surpassed Vegeta before but the other as well after the Rosat. Stop twisting the facts. It talks about his base as it shows his base form next to the information.

Super buu >>> Goku is obvious and explicitly stated TWICE, why can't people just get it?

@pakl / undertaker, Amuro Ray is not kakashi.....he never used the size excuse

He used the size argument. Also who is pakl?

[Kaboom]

Stop with the double-posting.

Stop the accusations/assumptions about dual identities. It doesn't matter what name they post with in other communities, whether you're correct about them or not.

[Amuro Ray]

So your reason for Pure Boo absorbing the Dai Kaioshin is? If you're assuming South Kaioshin had no effect on his strength then why would Pure Boo feel the need to absorb Dai Kaioshin? Also, you're assuming something while ignoring the evidence. The fact of the matter is as Boo reverted to the Buff Boo his power did increase. So that means the South Kaioshin's power did make Boo stronger. The site doesn't have the bios translations anymore so I'm not sure what it says about Pure Boo.

I don't care why he did it - a reason for absorbing Dai Kaio isn't given either, and I saw Buu transforming into Kiddbuu and as he was transforming a increase in power was noted. Again, your thoughts/opinion on this matter are no more valid than mine, so this is a dead end.

This is a point I made note of in several posts. It doesn't explicitly say base strength. It could also mean "strength" in terms of the Gotenks succeeding in getting SSJ3 where Vegeta is still only able to use SSJ2. As far as mentioning Goku there is no reason to assume that because they didn't mention him that Gotenks is weaker. If we assume its on about base strength then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku as Base Gotenks > Base Goku >/< Base Vegeta. Also how do we know they aren't talking about Base Gotenks, or SSJ Gotenks, being stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta? He was the only one to fight Fat Boo in this form. And if that is the case then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku again. There are a lot of angles you can tackle this from which put Gotenks above Goku.

What it says is that Gotenks surpasses Vegeta and the others after training in ROSAT. The others include Piccolo, Krillin, Tien, etc in other words people who are not Saiya-jin. You can argue until your blue in the face, but it doesn't change what is explicitly stated here - Vegeta (who we know to be weaker than Goku) has finally been surpassed by Gotenks, it doesn't say "But only in base form, on the 3rd Wednesday," or any other qualifier. I think it was you who tried to argue this anime was made for children, and as a result was made to be easy to understand, and to be honest there is nothing easy to understand about potential hidden meanings.

No, Goku didn't ask if they should fight. He thought completely that, that was Vegeta's plan. And at no time did Goku imply they would lose either. So that is a null point. And yes, Goku didn't bother to suggest bringing the boys again. But that was stupid. Let me ask you, if you believe that Gotenks and Gohan couldn't handle Pure Boo then why not bring them to the planet to defend Goku while he makes the Genki Dama? Gotenks and Gohan are more powerful than Vegeta and Fat Boo. What was their reason for not getting them to the planet to hold off Pure Boo? This scene is full of inconsistencies. There is literally no reason for them to not bring Gohan and Gotenks to the battle as they would have held Pure Boo off much better than Vegeta or Fat Boo. The characters just act completely retarded. Unless you believe that by some amazingly messed up logic Fat Boo > Evil Boo(Super Boo) and Fat Boo > Gotenks + Gohan. Which would be completely stupid.

Or I just think that Kiddbuu was too much for any of them to manage on their own, which is why it was suggested to bring both? I don't know, and neither do you.

Actually Kuririn is saying “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!” He says this because he was still believing Gotenks would still be able to defeat Boo even with Boo's power increase and he's basically asking Piccolo if that is the case any more. Piccolo follows up by saying "That'd be nice, but..." clearly Piccolo has lost faith in the fusion because Evil Boo's power has grown so much. Piccolo does say he's more powerful in every way.

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

I don't see how that is different than what I said before - Krillin asked Piccolo is the situation got worse, why couldn't he tell for himself? Again, when Goku transformed into SSJ3 - EVERYONE knew, it was shown that his power was even able to reach Outerworld and be sensed by people who weren't even paying attention. When Buu transforms, we see Piccolo comment on his nature (and imply a power change) but it doesn't seem that anyone else notices. Goku, who is shown to be observing the fight the whole time, doesn't seem to be able to grasp the change himself.

You're missing the point. If Trunks > Goten and Goten = Gohan then if the fusion is Goten + Trunks that would mean Gotenks >= 2 Gohan's. So in other words Gotenks would be 2x more powerful than Gohan. And that is just with an addition of both the fusee's powers. We know however that the fusion does a lot more than that as Goku wouldn't think a SSJ Gotenks could fight against Fat Boo if it just added their powers together.

We know Gohan is substantially weaker than Vegeta and Goku, judging by the fact that basically get's one-shotted by Buu - again, it doesn't matter how strong you THINK Gotenks is/should be - it's explicitly stated that he doesn't surpass Vegeta until after training.

As we've pointed out many times, the entry is very vague as to what form is being referenced. All we know is that Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, that's it. Given what we see though, even if the fusion dance simply adds their battle powers together, Ssj Gotenks before the Room of Spirit and Time is going to be at least as powerful as Ssj2 Gohan. Now, there's no arguing that Ssj2 Goku and Ma-jin Vegeta is stronger than Ssj2 Gohan, but it's not very likely that it's by a staggering degree. Goku and Vegeta would need to be at least twice as strong as Gohan in order for Ssj3 Goku to be equal to a non-existent Pre-RoSaT Ssj3 Gotenks.

Since I highly doubt that Goku is twice as powerful as Gohan is, that'd put Ssj3 Goku as somewhere in between a Pre-RoSaT Ssj2 and Ssj3 Gotenks (if they existed). Then, if you consider Goten and Trunks' training, which substantially increased Gotenks' battle power, that'd put Ssj3 Goku even closer towards Ssj2 Gotenks rather than Ssj3 Gotenks.

This is, of course, just assuming that fusion simply adds their battle powers together. If there's any sort of multiplier implemented after the addition of the two, or a straight up multiplier of the two (like with the Potara), then Gotenks is going to be even that much more powerful than Goku.

All we know for certain is that Gohan is said to be weaker than when he fought Cell, Goku and Vegeta are said to actually be stronger than Gohan was back then .

[Zephyr]

What it says is that Gotenks surpasses Vegeta and the others after training in ROSAT. The others include Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan, etc in other words people who are not Saiya-jin. You can argue until your blue in the face, but it doesn't change what is explicitly stated here - Vegeta (who we know to be weaker than Goku) has finally been surpassed by Gotenks

Even though by that point Vegeta and Goku were equals (when in the same form)? There's also no basis for claiming that "the others" don't include other Saiyans.

[Hitiro]

I don't care why he did it - a reason for absorbing Dai Kaio isn't given either, and I saw Buu transforming into Kiddbuu and as he was transforming a increase in power was noted. Again, your thoughts/opinion on this matter are no more valid than mine, so this is a dead end.

The most logical reason for Boo to absorb Dai Kaioshin would be that after absorbing South Kaioshin; Boo did gain a power increase so Boo assumed he would increase in power by absorbing the Dai Kaioshin too because he expected the same result as when he absorbed the South Kaioshin. You're assuming he absorbed Dai Kaioshin for no reason other than he could because you keep telling me that Boo absorbing South Kaioshin had no effect on his power. That is illogical.

What it says is that Gotenks surpasses Vegeta and the others after training in ROSAT. The others include Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan, etc in other words people who are not Saiya-jin. You can argue until your blue in the face, but it doesn't change what is explicitly stated here - Vegeta (who we know to be weaker than Goku) has finally been surpassed by Gotenks, it doesn't say "But only in base form, on the 3rd Wednesday," or any other qualifier. I think it was you who tried to argue this anime was made for children, and as a result was made to be easy to understand, and to be honest there is nothing easy to understand about potential hidden meanings.

What are you on about. Vegeta is equal to Goku at this point in the story line. The only reason Goku has the advantage in power is because he has the SSJ3 transformation. Other than that both Goku and Vegeta are equals. So if the Daizenshuu is saying Base Gotenks surpasses Base Vegeta then the same can be said for him surpassing Base Goku. The others would include anyone even Saiyans you are just making up restrictions on the word because you want to believe that Gotenks can't be stronger than Goku. There is no proof that others means everyone but people who aren't Saiyans. Are you saying that Gohan is also not part of the others category? The word "other" is not as selective as you make it out to be.

Or I just think that Kiddbuu was too much for any of them to manage on their own, which is why it was suggested to bring both? I don't know, and neither do you.

Again, Goku never suggested they would bring them both. Goku only thought Vegeta was going to use the dragonballs to bring them both back to life so they are able to fight. Nowhere does Goku say both needed to fight at the same time. It doesn't matter if you think Pure Boo would be too much for them. They would still put up a better fight than Vegeta or Fat Boo. So why didn't Vegeta bring them to the Kaioshin's planet to defend Goku while he made the Genki Dama instead of Vegeta and Fat Boo fighting him? Both Gohan and Gotenks would put up a much better fight and hold off Pure Boo better than Vegeta and Fat Boo if you truly believe they couldn't beat Pure Boo. Unless you are indicating that both Gohan and Gotenks are weaker than Vegeta and Fat Boo. Which as I said in my last post, is absurd.

I don't see how that is different than what I said before - Krillin asked Piccolo is the situation got worse, why couldn't he tell for himself? Again, when Goku transformed into SSJ3 - EVERYONE knew, it was shown that his power was even able to reach Outerworld and be sensed by people who weren't even paying attention. When Buu transforms, we see Piccolo comment on his nature (and imply a power change) but it doesn't seem that anyone else notices. Goku, who is shown to be observing the fight the whole time, doesn't seem to be able to grasp the change himself.

The difference with what I'm saying and what you're saying is that Kuririn was still in the belief that fusion was the strongest thing. It wasn't about power or strength. But then Piccolo came in with an uncertainty that fusion just won't cut it any more. So fusion went from being a viable option against Fat Boo to being clearly outclassed by Evil Boo as state by Piccolo later on:

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Piccolo clearly says the can't win, no doubt about it. So Piccolo is clearly specifying a stark difference between Fat Boo and Evil Boo. Also Boo's power was sensed at the Kaioshin's world too:

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”
Note: mostly I wanted to point out that Goku and co. can sense evil Boo from the Kaioshin Realm.

So his power had jumped up enough to be recognised on the Kaioshin's world.

We know Gohan is substantially weaker than Vegeta and Goku, judging by the fact that basically get's one-shotted by Buu - again, it doesn't matter how strong you THINK Gotenks is/should be - it's explicitly stated that he doesn't surpass Vegeta until after training.

Right, so if we are going by how the battles go then, Base Gotenks was pummelled by Fat Boo yet still returned without any major injury. So Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta then and the Daizenshuu which states Gotenks doesn't surpass Vegeta until after the training means in transformations only. There is a key difference between the battle with Gohan and Fat Boo and the battle with Vegeta and Fat Boo. Gohan tried running away so Boo finished him quickly and Gohan had no time to defend himself. Vegeta stayed to fight and Fat Boo played with him. If you are going to say Gohan is extremely weaker than Vegeta and Goku based on the way the battles played out then Base Gotenks feats >>>> SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Gohan.

[MDSTSSJ]

I'm not completely with Amuro´s opinions but, he gave good points here!

[Undertaker]

I'm not completely with Amuro´s opinions but, he gave good points here!

He repeated the same things I addressed above

[RandomGuy96]

What it says is that Gotenks surpasses Vegeta and the others after training in ROSAT. The others include Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan, etc in other words people who are not Saiya-jin. You can argue until your blue in the face, but it doesn't change what is explicitly stated here - Vegeta (who we know to be weaker than Goku) has finally been surpassed by Gotenks, it doesn't say "But only in base form, on the 3rd Wednesday," or any other qualifier. I think it was you who tried to argue this anime was made for children, and as a result was made to be easy to understand, and to be honest there is nothing easy to understand about potential hidden meanings.

If you'd really like to micro-analyze that statement to such an absurd degree (and ignore the guidebooks stating Goten = Gohan, and the guidebooks also stating that fusion makes you TENS OF TIMES STRONGER), then think about it: who could the "others" possibly be besides Goku? Gohan? Ignoring that Goten is stated to be equal to Gohan in that same book, Gohan is just one person. Even if the sentence was referring to him, who was the other person that made the word plural? It can't be Piccolo, Kaioshin, or the humans- Gotenks pre-ROSAT was already way stronger than them. The only person it could be referring to is Goku.

And the "others" not being saiyans makes no sense. Vegeta is a saiyan. If anything, "Vegeta and the others" should be referring to "Vegeta and the other saiyans", since those are the only ones pre-ROSAT Gotenks MIGHT not have surpassed.

[Amuro Ray]

The most logical reason for Boo to absorb Dai Kaioshin would be that after absorbing South Kaioshin; Boo did gain a power increase so Boo assumed he would increase in power by absorbing the Dai Kaioshin too because he expected the same result as when he absorbed the South Kaioshin. You're assuming he absorbed Dai Kaioshin for no reason other than he could because you keep telling me that Boo absorbing South Kaioshin had no effect on his power. That is illogical.

I'm ignoring this - it's a baseless theory of the matter, I don't care.

What are you on about. Vegeta is equal to Goku at this point in the story line. The only reason Goku has the advantage in power is because he has the SSJ3 transformation. Other than that both Goku and Vegeta are equals. So if the Daizenshuu is saying Base Gotenks surpasses Base Vegeta then the same can be said for him surpassing Base Goku. The others would include anyone even Saiyans you are just making up restrictions on the word because you want to believe that Gotenks can't be stronger than Goku. There is no proof that others means everyone but people who aren't Saiyans. Are you saying that Gohan is also not part of the others category? The word "other" is not as selective as you make it out to be.

But it doesn't say that Base Gotenks surpassed base Vegeta, it just says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta AND the others (meaning, non Sayajins as well) Goku isn't mentioned, and we KNOW Goku is stronger than Vegeta. Get of this one, it's a non starter no matter how many times you want to rephrase it.

Again, Goku never suggested they would bring them both. Goku only thought Vegeta was going to use the dragonballs to bring them both back to life so they are able to fight. Nowhere does Goku say both needed to fight at the same time. It doesn't matter if you think Pure Boo would be too much for them. They would still put up a better fight than Vegeta or Fat Boo. So why didn't Vegeta bring them to the Kaioshin's planet to defend Goku while he made the Genki Dama instead of Vegeta and Fat Boo fighting him? Both Gohan and Gotenks would put up a much better fight and hold off Pure Boo better than Vegeta and Fat Boo if you truly believe they couldn't beat Pure Boo. Unless you are indicating that both Gohan and Gotenks are weaker than Vegeta and Fat Boo. Which as I said in my last post, is absurd.

Actually he used the word "And" implying "as well" and not "either/or" Otherwise, it doesn't matter.

The difference with what I'm saying and what you're saying is that Kuririn was still in the belief that fusion was the strongest thing. It wasn't about power or strength. But then Piccolo came in with an uncertainty that fusion just won't cut it any more. So fusion went from being a viable option against Fat Boo to being clearly outclassed by Evil Boo as state by Piccolo later on:

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Piccolo clearly says the can't win, no doubt about it. So Piccolo is clearly specifying a stark difference between Fat Boo and Evil Boo. Also Boo's power was sensed at the Kaioshin's world too:

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”
Note: mostly I wanted to point out that Goku and co. can sense evil Boo from the Kaioshin Realm.

So his power had jumped up enough to be recognised on the Kaioshin's world.

Already addressed this multiple times - again, if there was a power change, why could only Piccolo sense it? Why did he need to make Krillin and the boys aware of the change in power if it was so significant? And Once more - Goku and Piccolo talk about the nature of Buu's KI more-so than the power, just like they did with Gohan and many many many other times in the series. I'm not claiming SuperBuu isn't potentially stronger, but it doesn't seem like it's by a significant margin.

Right, so if we are going by how the battles go then, Base Gotenks was pummelled by Fat Boo yet still returned without any major injury. So Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta then and the Daizenshuu which states Gotenks doesn't surpass Vegeta until after the training means in transformations only. There is a key difference between the battle with Gohan and Fat Boo and the battle with Vegeta and Fat Boo. Gohan tried running away so Boo finished him quickly and Gohan had no time to defend himself. Vegeta stayed to fight and Fat Boo played with him. If you are going to say Gohan is extremely weaker than Vegeta and Goku based on the way the battles played out then Base Gotenks feats >>>> SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Gohan.

No, it States Vegeta and the others - they aren't talking about SSJ transformations - it's about Power. Period.

What it says is that Gotenks surpasses Vegeta and the others after training in ROSAT. The others include Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan, etc in other words people who are not Saiya-jin. You can argue until your blue in the face, but it doesn't change what is explicitly stated here - Vegeta (who we know to be weaker than Goku) has finally been surpassed by Gotenks, it doesn't say "But only in base form, on the 3rd Wednesday," or any other qualifier. I think it was you who tried to argue this anime was made for children, and as a result was made to be easy to understand, and to be honest there is nothing easy to understand about potential hidden meanings.

If you'd really like to micro-analyze that statement to such an absurd degree (and ignore the guidebooks stating Goten = Gohan, and the guidebooks also stating that fusion makes you TENS OF TIMES STRONGER), then think about it: who could the "others" possibly be besides Goku? Gohan? Ignoring that Goten is stated to be equal to Gohan in that same book, Gohan is just one person. Even if the sentence was referring to him, who was the other person that made the word plural? It can't be Piccolo, Kaioshin, or the humans- Gotenks pre-ROSAT was already way stronger than them. The only person it could be referring to is Goku.

And the "others" not being saiyans makes no sense. Vegeta is a saiyan. If anything, "Vegeta and the others" should be referring to "Vegeta and the other saiyans", since those are the only ones pre-ROSAT Gotenks MIGHT not have surpassed.

I don't have to ignore anything - there are two reasons why this logic is flawed:
First the word "others" is used, it's plural meaning more than one - so let's say, by some far off chance Goku is included in that comment, who is the other person? Gohan?
Then that leaves problem Two: By obtaining SSJ3, Gotenks achieved a level higher than Gohan and Vegeta, but they would be equal (not greater) than Goku. No matter how you want to phrase it, Goku cannot be placed into that statement. And again, why specifically name Vegeta, a character known to be weaker than Goku...over Goku?

[Hitiro]

The most logical reason for Boo to absorb Dai Kaioshin would be that after absorbing South Kaioshin; Boo did gain a power increase so Boo assumed he would increase in power by absorbing the Dai Kaioshin too because he expected the same result as when he absorbed the South Kaioshin. You're assuming he absorbed Dai Kaioshin for no reason other than he could because you keep telling me that Boo absorbing South Kaioshin had no effect on his power. That is illogical.

I'm ignoring this - it's a baseless theory of the matter, I don't care.

You're ignoring this because you can't think of a reason as to why after absorbing the South Kaioshin; Boo absorbed the Dai Kaioshin. That's it simply.

What are you on about. Vegeta is equal to Goku at this point in the story line. The only reason Goku has the advantage in power is because he has the SSJ3 transformation. Other than that both Goku and Vegeta are equals. So if the Daizenshuu is saying Base Gotenks surpasses Base Vegeta then the same can be said for him surpassing Base Goku. The others would include anyone even Saiyans you are just making up restrictions on the word because you want to believe that Gotenks can't be stronger than Goku. There is no proof that others means everyone but people who aren't Saiyans. Are you saying that Gohan is also not part of the others category? The word "other" is not as selective as you make it out to be.

But it doesn't say that Base Gotenks surpassed base Vegeta, it just says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta AND the others (meaning, non Sayajins as well) Goku isn't mentioned, and we KNOW Goku is stronger than Vegeta. Get of this one, it's a non starter no matter how many times you want to rephrase it.

Again you are saying Gotenks surpassed Vegeta(Who is just as strong as Goku without SSJ transformations) and others while twisting the meaning of others. Get this through your head.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight a bit
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

Vegeta is as strong as Goku. You are just making up rubbish to suit your own beliefs you can't say "Well, others means everyone but the Saiyans." Where is your proof? If Vegeta is as strong as Goku there is no need to say Vegeta and Goku and others. Where does Gohan fit in with your butchering of others? At this point in time Gohan would have to have been included, he was weaker than Vegeta. In that case why doesn't it say "Vegeta and the others, except Goku."?

Again, Goku never suggested they would bring them both. Goku only thought Vegeta was going to use the dragonballs to bring them both back to life so they are able to fight. Nowhere does Goku say both needed to fight at the same time. It doesn't matter if you think Pure Boo would be too much for them. They would still put up a better fight than Vegeta or Fat Boo. So why didn't Vegeta bring them to the Kaioshin's planet to defend Goku while he made the Genki Dama instead of Vegeta and Fat Boo fighting him? Both Gohan and Gotenks would put up a much better fight and hold off Pure Boo better than Vegeta and Fat Boo if you truly believe they couldn't beat Pure Boo. Unless you are indicating that both Gohan and Gotenks are weaker than Vegeta and Fat Boo. Which as I said in my last post, is absurd.

Actually he used the word "And" implying "as well" and not "either/or" Otherwise, it doesn't matter.

Goku used the word "and" because Vegeta is hardly going to wish back ONE person. Lets play this out shall we?

Vegeta: I want you to use the first wish to bring back planet Earth.

Goku: Oh! I see! You're going to bring back Gohan OR Gotenks.

Vegeta: Yes Kakkarot! I want you to use your second wish to bring back only Gohan, we don't need anybody else alive. Forget bringing EVERYONE back to life.

"and" is used because both Gohan and Gotenks would be brought back with the same wish. its has nothing to with bringing them both to fight. What Goku said was:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

This sentence would make no sense if Goku said "Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan either/or Gotenks back to life so they can fight.” It would be a waste of a wish to only bring back one person rather than everyone on Earth. Don't you get that? And nowhere does Goku say so they can both fight Boo, either.

The difference with what I'm saying and what you're saying is that Kuririn was still in the belief that fusion was the strongest thing. It wasn't about power or strength. But then Piccolo came in with an uncertainty that fusion just won't cut it any more. So fusion went from being a viable option against Fat Boo to being clearly outclassed by Evil Boo as state by Piccolo later on:

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Piccolo clearly says the can't win, no doubt about it. So Piccolo is clearly specifying a stark difference between Fat Boo and Evil Boo. Also Boo's power was sensed at the Kaioshin's world too:

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”
Note: mostly I wanted to point out that Goku and co. can sense evil Boo from the Kaioshin Realm.

So his power had jumped up enough to be recognised on the Kaioshin's world.

Already addressed this multiple times - again, if there was a power change, why could only Piccolo sense it? Why did he need to make Krillin and the boys aware of the change in power if it was so significant? And Once more - Goku and Piccolo talk about the nature of Buu's KI more-so than the power, just like they did with Gohan and many many many other times in the series. I'm not claiming SuperBuu isn't potentially stronger, but it doesn't seem like it's by a significant margin.

So Piccolo goes from assuming SSJ Gotenks can take Fat Boo to thinking there is no way he can take Evil Boo and you believe the power increase wasn't that large? Good job. Should I also point out that nobody said anything about Fat Boo's ki from the Kaioshin's world. Yet Evil Boo's power was sensed there regardless. And as for you saying Goku is talking about the nature of Evil Boo's ki you are just making an assumption. He could also be talking about power. Like "This ki...what is it?...It's much more powerful than before." You have no idea what Goku meant when he said "what is it?" you are just making assumptions.

No, it States Vegeta and the others - they aren't talking about SSJ transformations - it's about Power. Period.

And Base Vegeta and Base Goku equal the same strength, so you've just nullified your point.