How strong was Dabura?

[TheGmGoken]

^ Damn this guy just shut all y'all theories up. .

[PerfectFreeza]

I think by his ki being like a lie, Goku meant that he had no idea, how strong Buu could get, since he kept on powering up, when he blew smoke.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Ooooooooooor, it's just an error. Gohan is NOT a SSJ2, his aura, his face, his lack of lightning, his hair all scream not SSJ2. Seriously I'll provide pictures:

His hair actually supports him being a SS2.

No... no it doesn't. Please look at the examples provided, there is a clear difference. 1 bang a SSJ2 does not make. That is merely FPSSJ. He was in a rested state when fighting Goten. Look here, he is clearly a SSJ with on bang:

Seriously the Daizenshuu that says Gohan was a SSJ2 also says Tenshinhan fought C-19. Daiz #7 clearly has quite a few typos. It's not hard to believe that they made a simple mistake. Furthermore, Dabura's power being equal to "Cell" could easily be an average of Imperfect Cell and Perfect Cell since, as we all know, Cell's power liked to fluctuate. Or hey, we could simply assume Dabura is equal to Perfect Cell and he was just holding back against Gohan. Remember, you have to actually power up to display that power. Or, here's another example, maybe the Daiz just took what Goku said and slapped it in there without putting too much thought into it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't buy the whole "Goku didn't specify which Cell he is talking about". I mean, Cell's max power was Super Perfect Cell. That was the final Cell, the Cell in general. It's like we have Piccolo saying in the end of Freeza arc that Gohan surpassed Freeza, while talking about 3rd Form Freeza. Doesn't make sense.

Like I've said before, we definitely see Super Saiyan Gohan, but the story tells us that it makes more sense for Gohan to be a Super Saiyan 2, both against Dabra, Boo, and when drawing the Z-Sword.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I don't buy the whole "Goku didn't specify which Cell he is talking about". I mean, Cell's max power was Super Perfect Cell. That was the final Cell, the Cell in general. It's like we have Piccolo saying in the end of Freeza arc that Gohan surpassed Freeza, while talking about 3rd Form Freeza. Doesn't make sense.

Like I've said before, we definitely see Super Saiyan Gohan, but the story tells us that it makes more sense for Gohan to be a Super Saiyan 2, both against Dabra, Boo, and when drawing the Z-Sword.

It's the Buu saga, when has it ever tried to make sense?

[Son_Gohan]

Complex analysis of manga implications and guidebook inconsistencies are not necessary.

THIS is all that's necessary:

Spoiler:

How is Gohan drawn? Like the first one. So he was a Super Saiyan 1. It's that easy.

Toriyama is not a complex man when it comes to these things. There's a clear and distinct art difference between the two forms within the original work. There is no good reason to think he'd draw Gohan looking like one thing when he truly actually intended for him to not be that thing. The obvious trends in the art are right in front of your face, and it's all you need. Anything more than that just needlessly complicates things.

Now can we please stop bringing this inane non-discussion up over and over again? Like, forever? Please?

I'm so tired of it. So very, very tired.

Is it not considered to be the first stage of Super Saiyan because it doesn't match exactly the characteristics from that one example? You've just presented a noninclusive argument that clearly is not applicable to the entire manga. If Toriyama decided to create variance with the original SSj form, why is it so inconceivable that he'd treat the 2nd form the same way?

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's a rested state -_-.

[Son_Gohan]

That's a rested state -_-.

And a battle state:

Spoiler:

[TheMightyOzaru]

Still a rested state. Goku can fight in any state so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Goku wasn't rested when demonstrating for Majin Buu so I fail to see where you're going with this.

[Son_Gohan]

Still a rested state. Goku can fight in any state so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Goku wasn't rested when demonstrating for Majin Buu so I fail to see where you're going with this.

Unless you share Kaboom's argument that the Super Saiyan forms must always look like they do in that single example, then naturally the post wasn't directed towards your perspective.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Still a rested state. Goku can fight in any state so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Goku wasn't rested when demonstrating for Majin Buu so I fail to see where you're going with this.

Unless you share Kaboom's argument that the Super Saiyan forms must always look like they do in that single example, then naturally the post wasn't directed towards your perspective.

Yeah a SSJ should always look like that. Goku and Gohan have just mastered it so they can suppress themselves unlike everyone else. This gives them a peaceful look while in a rested state. Furthermore, your argument doesn't really debunk the Gohan can't be a SSJ2 argument, so, again, I fail to see where you're going with this.

[Mjb1985]

Kaboom's simple explanation works best. I need to start keeping it short and sweet with these types of discussions. Good stuff Boom.

[Kaboom]

In that case, we know it was Super Saiyan because we were told it was Super Saiyan, rather than something above and beyond it. And when Goku powered up, he had the Super Saiyan aura. That's a pretty weaselly response, you know. Obviously sometimes characters won't be displaying an aura at all, but that doesn't make the appropriate aura any less a trademark of the form they're in.

Anyway, I was torn on whether or not to actually give answers to the listed "problems" with Gohan being just a Super Saiyan, but Zephyr already expertly covered most of the points I'd have made. I'll just give a more concise reply in the form of the two best possible answers to the general "well why wouldn't he be Super Saiyan 2?" question.

First off, Gohan may not have thought he'd even need Super Saiyan 2. According to the DBZ Dragon Books, Dabra "clearly possesses inferior power" to Gohan's, but still fought evenly with him because Gohan's skills were insanely rusty compared to Dabra's (though at least that handily explains how Gohan took next to zero damage from Dabra's fireball attack). If Gohan got a feel for Dabra's power either at that point or outside earlier, he likely figured he'd only need Super Saiyan 1 to beat him, only to end up in a pinch when Dabra proves more trouble than he thought for the aforementioned reasons. So the obvious path to a quick win would be to go Super Saiyan 2 and just tip the scales so far in his favor that skill wouldn't matter anymore, right?

Except he probably couldn't go Super Saiyan 2. We've been told before how it takes practice to gain control over a Super Saiyan form and become able to just pop into it at the drop of a hat. Gohan never did that training, slacking off and spending the past 7 years getting soft and feeble instead. At the Tournament, Kibito allowed him all the time and effort he needed to force the transformation, and that was a substantial amount. But Dabra would almost certainly not grant him the same luxury. Gohan's rage would serve as a handy shortcut to bringing his full power out in a pinch, but as we know, he was having trouble taking that route too.

So that subsequently explains pretty much everything else. In terms of power, Dabra should be a pushover to any of the three as Super Saiyans. Back on the cliff when they were first told they'd have to kill him, Goku proclaimed that it'd be easy, with a smile on his face. Both he and Vegeta continue regarding Dabra as a complete non-threat throughout the sequence in Bobbidi's ship, and I doubt that'd be the case if he was comparable to Super Perfect Cell, who actually rivaled Super Saiyan 2 Gohan seven years ago, who was so powerful that he was still being used as the measuring stick up through Boo's debut. Goku's very loose comparison of Dabra to Cell doesn't have to mean anything specific because, well, who else that they've fought in the past was anywhere close to that range of strength? If Perfect Cell's power level ranged from a 10 to a 20, and Dabra's a 12, then he's still best compared to just "Cell" in general more than anyone else.

So if Gohan's having so much trouble against a foe he should be able to beat even without Super Saiyan 2, it stands to reason that Vegeta would be so frustrated and Goku so disappointed. On that note, they don't have to mention Super Saiyan 2 because it shouldn't even be a factor.

On one last note not too related to the arguments at hand but actually pretty important... there's also the power Bobbidi received for Boo from the battle. We saw later with Goku Vs Vegeta how quickly a Super Saiyan 2-level battle filled up the power meter for Boo. But Boo was getting jack diddly from Gohan Vs Dabra, even though Dabra was landing hits. Which serves as support for both "Dabra was weaker than Gohan" and "they weren't fighting on an above-Super-Saiyan level."

That's all I have to say about it all, and frankly I think it's more than enough. I'll just re-post the only proof you need one more time for some extra emphasis...

Spoiler:

... And be on my way. I'll try my best to stick to following this thread in only a moderator capacity after this.

[Fionordequester]

And it took him ages, despite recently being pissed off. But to be fair, yes, this was in the anime only I believe.

Well, if it's anime only, I don't think it should be counted. So thanks for point that out.

And he was also told to "get mad" again, right before Goku and Vegeta went to go fight. Why would he need to be told to get mad again, if he had already successfully gotten mad? And yes, he saw him turn of free will. After taking his time powering up, right after he nearly saw his girlfriend get beaten nearly to death. The point can also be made that at the tournament he wasn't under as much pressure. He was in a match, and was just told to transform. In Babidi's ship, he was fighting to save the universe. He had his father and Vegeta watching him, who he likely knew had high expectations of him. His opponent wasn't just looking to see his power, he was trying to kill him. Remember, this is Gohan we're talking about, not Goku. He's not a fighter. He doesn't like to fight. It doesn't give him an erection. Tension being raised is not necessarily going to increase his ability to concentrate and reach his full power while the entire cosmos is hanging in the balance the way it would for Goku, at least not without the right catalyst (which again, seeing his friends turned to stone was not as extreme of one as seeing his girlfriend beaten to death, again evidenced by Goku not needing to hold him back this time).

I'll admit that's a good point about Gohan not needing to be held back. However, this theory also depends heavily on the idea that Gohan actually DID struggle to go SSJ2, an idea that really only has support in the Anime.

Wasn't the line referring to him being "as dangerous" as Cell?

And why was he as dangerous as Cell? I'm guessing it's because he was close to his level of power, plus had the ability to turn people to stone. So if Dabura is weaker, I don't think it's by a whole heck of a lot.

Dabura murdered Kibito (who didn't raise Gohan), not Krillin and Piccolo. And that girl he knew for a short time was his girlfriend. Have you ever had a girlfriend during adolescence? You tend to develop immensely powerful feelings for them, even moreso than those you may feel for people who may have helped raise you (if only for a short time) (especially if you haven't kept up regular contact with them like you have with her). The fact that Goku literally has to tell him to calm down after seeing Videl get beaten, but not after seeing his friends turned to stone (not murdered) supports this.

Again, if Goku didn't need to restrain him, alright. In my personal experience however, when I fell in love, I waited five months to tell, and never reached a point where I cared for her more than my family. And then of course, she didn't return my feelings, so...

Anyways, I'll concede that perhaps Gohan was angrier about Videl than the other two.

How would his inability to go SSj2 right off the bat not be a testament to how rusty he got?

You can argue that, sure.

A different interpretation of the dialog that fits just as easily with what you're arguing against:
"You're useless son isn't doing the job, Kakarrot. He's not transforming. I'm going to end it because he won't/can't!"
"Aww come on Vegeta, he technically still does have that transformation that he can do if he gets the chance to focus and pull it off. It's not like he's used all of his trump cards, and they've all failed. He's not completely losing!"

I think if that were the case, Akira would've just had them say something like that. Remember, this is the same dude who drew this...




So I I doubt that he'd be terribly subtle when it came to the writing.

Or he could have meant that he needed the rage boost to access SSj2.

I think if that were the case, the dialogue would go something like "Look, I know how hard SSJ2 is for you, but if you pop it off with a bang like you did against Cell, you can do it! I know you can!"

And it doesn't specify which Cell.

If anything, I would say that's an even better argument for SSJ2 Gohan. I think if Akira was really THAT careful in drawing all the forms exactly right and everything like that, he would've also been careful to specify which Cell Goku was comparing Dabura to. The fact that he didn't leads me to believe that Akira just didn't think it was important to draw all the sparks needed to show off SSJ2, and wanted to finish by his deadline, hence, he didn't want to get OCD about every little detail.

Okay, so then every other fight has at least thrown the sparks in there for a good portion. Only in this one, for some reason, they're completely absent. For the entire duration of the fight. And against Buu.

And how many fights with SSJ2 were there before Dabura? Cell and Kibito, right? That's not a whole heck of a lot, you know that, right?

You'd think if he was meant to be a SSj2 there would be sparks at some point during either of these two fights (since during every other SSj2 fight, there are sparks for a good portion).

My theory has always been that Akira simply never bothered to make too much of a distinction between the two until he got to Goku vs. Fat Buu, where he thought of the whole "This is what each stage looks like" exchange, then realized "Huh...I'd better be clearer about how I draw the two". Hence, the lightning in every other fight. I mean, I know there was probably lightning around Majin Vegeta, but I'm guessing that was more to show off how strong he was than anything else.

EDIT: Now, that said, now that I think of it, Supreme Kai was also there, and ALSO saw Gohan transform into an SSJ2. So why wouldn't HE have anything to say about the whole situation? We already established that SSJ1 and SSJ2 look different, so surely he would still notice how different Gohan looks even if he WAS a putz, as Kaboom put it.

[Mjb1985]

Zephyr and Kaboom got this stuff all figured out. Really enjoying your explanations.

I also feel Super Saiyan Gohan has an edge in power over Dabura as well. I go with a slight edge, but an edge indeed.

[Son_Gohan]

Still a rested state. Goku can fight in any state so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Goku wasn't rested when demonstrating for Majin Buu so I fail to see where you're going with this.

Unless you share Kaboom's argument that the Super Saiyan forms must always look like they do in that single example, then naturally the post wasn't directed towards your perspective.

Yeah a SSJ should always look like that. Goku and Gohan have just mastered it so they can suppress themselves unlike everyone else. This gives them a peaceful look while in a rested state. Furthermore, your argument doesn't really debunk the Gohan can't be a SSJ2 argument, so, again, I fail to see where you're going with this.

Kaboom was generalizing the forms on specific traits, you are specifying the forms by considering the individual circumstances (which I agree is the way it should be viewed). You are doing the complete opposite of Kaboom's argument, that's what you fail to see. My post was only accentuating that it simply cannot be viewed in such a way; you are basically forced to recognize the individual circumstances encompassing these forms because they are in no way drawn consistent in appearance throughout the entire manga. So if Kaboom has started to address the particulars of these events, than my post was successful.

[TheGmGoken]

That's a rested state -_-.

And a battle state:

Spoiler:

Umm no? That's Goku holding back. That was him just warming up since he didn't power up yet -_-.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except he probably couldn't go Super Saiyan 2. We've been told before how it takes practice to gain control over a Super Saiyan form and become able to just pop into it at the drop of a hat. Gohan never did that training, slacking off and spending the past 7 years getting soft and feeble instead. At the Tournament, Kibito allowed him all the time and effort he needed to force the transformation, and that was a substantial amount. But Dabra would almost certainly not grant him the same luxury. Gohan's rage would serve as a handy shortcut to bringing his full power out in a pinch, but as we know, he was having trouble taking that route too.

Dabra viewed Gohan as a fly, so Dabra would definitely let Gohan go full power, aka Super Saiyan 2.

Ignoring that, you explained very well why Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Dabra. But what about against Boo (including Boo's Ball)? Why wasn't Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 when he was trying to get angry and go full power at a time when the whole universe was in the line?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gohan was too focused on getting angry as opposed to transforming I guess. Gohan's clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed in this arc.

[TheGmGoken]

Gohan was too focused on getting angry as opposed to transforming I guess. Gohan's clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed in this arc.

No one was . THat was made this Arc the worst IMO.