Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
dbzfan7 wrote:I know Goku had lied once. But I don't know why people say he is a chronic liar to argue points. He just dodged the question more than anything. When people say Goku is a chronic liar I imagine him in the Boo saga with lying tourettes where he would just snap at people with lies left and right with a nervous twitch.
Well, lies I remember:
Goku lies when he tells Buu that Gotenks is stronger than.
Goku lies to Piccolo (who was really surprised by the power of SSJ3 ) when he asks Goku if he could have defeated Buu and he says no.
In the fight against Majin Vegeta, he does´t show his true powers to not hurt Vegeta's pride. Yeah is not a lie, is more a dodged thing.
Not go all out from the beginning against Pure Boo because of the Vegeta´s pride.
First one you can't say as a fact. It's your opinion.
Second one he didn't straight up lie, he more brushed off the question/dodged it.
Right, another dodge, and he fought with his full SSJ2 power.
He did go all out, he told Vegeta. He just didn't seriously try to end it.
He also underestimated Buu. He didn't try a full power attack at the beginning because he felt he wouldn't need it. And by the time that he realized he did, he wasn't able to.
Since the word "fact" is getting thrown around now, let me quote a little philosophy for these things which I've found serves me well.
An in-universe statement or prediction CAN be taken as fact if it's never contradicted. But it only MUST or at least SHOULD be taken as fact if it's actually proven or confirmed.
"Don't hesitate for my sake"
"I haven't gotten the chance"
"So you weren't think of me..."
I have no idea what you're referring. Goku can 1-shot Pure Buu as Vegetto, we all know that.
One blast can mean a one punch, one Kamehameha, one kick. One minute can mean something that takes more time than a simple blast. Don´t know if you know what I mean!
dbzfan7 wrote:I know Goku had lied once. But I don't know why people say he is a chronic liar to argue points. He just dodged the question more than anything. When people say Goku is a chronic liar I imagine him in the Boo saga with lying tourettes where he would just snap at people with lies left and right with a nervous twitch.
Well, lies I remember:
Goku lies when he tells Buu that Gotenks is stronger than.
Goku lies to Piccolo (who was really surprised by the power of SSJ3 ) when he asks Goku if he could have defeated Buu and he says no.
In the fight against Majin Vegeta, he does´t show his true powers to not hurt Vegeta's pride. Yeah is not a lie, is more a dodged thing.
Not go all out from the beginning against Pure Boo because of the Vegeta´s pride.
First one you can't say as a fact. It's your opinion.
Second one he didn't straight up lie, he more brushed off the question/dodged it.
Right, another dodge, and he fought with his full SSJ2 power.
He did go all out, he told Vegeta. He just didn't seriously try to end it.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Ditto. SS Gotenks pre > Fat Buu is a fact and is stated about half a dozen times, but that doesn't mean SS Gotenks > SS3 Goku ever, because as Kaboom pointed out there can be a very big gap between Fat Buu and Goku.
Also, I'd just like to point out that Goku was getting his ass whooped by Pure Buu. People often exaggerate his performance there- he fought evenly with Kid Buu for about a minute before he admitted he couldn't win, and then Buu screwed around while Goku was covered in scratches, losing power, and complaining that Buu wasn't even taking him seriously. He's clearly not top tier in this saga if he's getting toyed with by one of the weakest forms of the main villain.
That sentence is inconsistent for me. Why Goku says later “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”? is a contradiction shit or Vegeta was listening.
Dude there is an edit button. No need to triple post.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
That sentence is inconsistent for me. Why Goku says later “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”? is a contradiction shit or Vegeta was listening.
He says he isn't doing any damage and can't win in normal combat. He only says that he can win if he gathers his ki for one minute (obviously not something he could do in a combat situation), probably referring to creating a big Kamehameha to completely wipe out Buu. Then he reverts to base.
It seems pretty clear that this 'fight' would've just turned into a brutal beatdown had it gone for another minute or so.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
That sentence is inconsistent for me. Why Goku says later “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”? is a contradiction shit or Vegeta was listening.
He says he isn't doing any damage and can't win in normal combat. He only says that he can win if he gathers his ki for one minute (obviously not something he could do in a combat situation), probably referring to creating a big Kamehameha to completely wipe out Buu. Then he reverts to base.
It seems pretty clear that this 'fight' would've just turned into a brutal beatdown had it gone for another minute or so.
Pretty much. If Goku didn't have that SSJ3 weaknesses he might have won.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I say no. He was huffing and puffing after one minute of fighting, and was covered in bruises and scratches. That has nothing to do with his form not lasting a long time, it just shows that he's struggling and probably on the losing end of the battle. Kid Buu, on the other hand, hadn't taken any lasting damage and was still ready to go. That's not normal, even for a Buu, as Super Buu was clearly taking damage from Gotenks, and definitely not all casual about it like Kid Buu. SS3 drain or no, Goku would've gotten STOMPED if Vegeta, Mr.Satan, and Good Buu hadn't been there.
He admitted that he only could beat Buu if he could have one minute "gathering his ki", likely referring to an amplified blast, and Kid Buu wouldn't have let him do that. Not when pounding on him until he can't move is so much more fun.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:I say no. He was huffing and puffing after one minute of fighting, and was covered in bruises and scratches. Kid Buu, on the other hand, hadn't taken any lasting damage and was still ready to go. SS3 drain or no, Goku would've gotten STOMPED if Vegeta, Mr.Satan, and Good Buu hadn't been there.
Seemed equal to me at first. Goku seemed to have more power, but lacked the endurance needed.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Yeah, they were equal for one minute, just like Good Buu and Kid Buu were. It really didn't look like Goku had a chance, even if he hadn't reverted to base, since he was exhausted and covered in injuries after that short scuffle while Kid Buu... wasn't. You can't chalk all that up to stamina (does SS3 even drain stamina?). Remember, he said that he needed to have a full minute of charge time to beat Buu (almost certainly referring to a Super Kamehameha) BEFORE he knew how wasteful SS3 was with his energy. At the end of his battle, he says he'll need to train to get much, much better to beat Buu, and several years later at the tournament he still thinks he might lose. Pretty clear Kid Buu > SS3 Goku statement right there, if the fight didn't make it clear enough.
Hell, at the end of the battle Kid Buu fires a Kamehameha at the Spirit Bomb, which does nothing, but then proceeds to catch and push it back with his bare hands. Remember, a Kamehameha is heavily amplified, so him being able to do something his previous blast couldn't with just his bare hands may suggest he was toying with everyone to an enormous degree before he got truly worried...
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:I say no. He was huffing and puffing after one minute of fighting, and was covered in bruises and scratches. That has nothing to do with his form not lasting a long time, it just shows that he's struggling and probably on the losing end of the battle. Kid Buu, on the other hand, hadn't taken any lasting damage and was still ready to go. That's not normal, even for a Buu, as Super Buu was clearly taking damage from Gotenks, and definitely not all casual about it like Kid Buu. SS3 drain or no, Goku would've gotten STOMPED if Vegeta, Mr.Satan, and Good Buu hadn't been there.
He admitted that he only could beat Buu if he could have one minute "gathering his ki", likely referring to an amplified blast, and Kid Buu wouldn't have let him do that. Not when pounding on him until he can't move is so much more fun.
Well that's because of the strain and the fact that he didn't have infinite stamina.
Buu doesn't appear to have infinite stamina either. Several times we see a Buu appear to be tired out, like Good Buu in the final battle, or Super Buu during his fights with wildly superior opponents. Heck, Super Buu appeared way more damaged in his fight with SS3 Gotenks, and I often see people put them as equals...
And I'm sorry, but if you're stronger than someone then you shouldn't be covered in wounds and exhausted after fighting them for one minute, while they haven't even taken any lasting damage. Goku only did very slightly better than Good Buu here, the only difference is Goku got bailed out after the first minute while Good Buu had to stay and take the beatdown after the first minute.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Yeah, they were equal for one minute. It really didn't look like Goku had a chance, even if he hadn't reverted to base, since he was exhausted and covered in injuries after that short scuffle while Kid Buu... wasn't. You can't chalk all that up to stamina (does SS3 even drain stamina?). Remember, he said that he needed to have a full minute of charge time to beat Buu (almost certainly referring to a Super Kamehameha) BEFORE he knew how wasteful SS3 was with his energy. At the end of his battle, he says he'll need to train to get much, much better to beat Buu, and several years later at the tournament he still thinks he might lose. Pretty clear Kid Buu > SS3 Goku statement right there, if the fight didn't make it clear enough.
Could be the SSJ3 that was more of the problem. But it's seems to me Kid Boo's limitless endurance and regeneration won the day. I only say he might have won because knowing Dragon Ball he may have pulled something off since they are close and if he just went all out when he was at full power with his attacks he might have managed something. He needed a full minute because he dragged out the battle, he was showing off to Kid Boo and trying to out fight him. Goku would get continuously weaker while Kid Boo stayed fresh so it wouldn't matter who was stronger as they were too close in power for that to matter.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Buu doesn't appear to have infinite stamina either. Several times we see a Buu appear to be tired out, like Good Buu in the final battle, or Super Buu during his fights with wildly superior opponents. Heck, Super Buu appeared way more damaged in his fight with SS3 Gotenks, and I often see people put them as equals...
And I'm sorry, but if you're stronger than someone then you shouldn't be covered in wounds and exhausted after fighting them for one minute, while they haven't even taken any lasting damage. Goku only did very slightly better than Good Buu here, the only difference is Goku got bailed out after the first minute while Good Buu had to stay and take the beatdown after the first minute.
SSJ3 Goku vs Fat Buu, Fat Buu didn't have any lasting damage and despite the fact that Goku was only stalling, he made himself around equal to Buu and traded hits, yet Buu didn't get hurt.
RandomGuy96 wrote:SS3 drain or no, Goku would've gotten STOMPED if Vegeta, Mr.Satan, and Good Buu hadn't been there.
I personally say no!
The main and only problem with the SSJ3 transformation ( being alive ) is the fast energy drain. We can assume that from the first second of the SSJ3 transformation, the energy is draining quickly.
With rapidly draining energy from the very beginning, we can assume that Goku can never used the maximum power of the SSJ3 transformation.
Dead SSJ3 Goku against Pure Boo, different history. Maximum all out SSJ3 power with 0 rapid energy drain.
RandomGuy96 wrote:SS3 drain or no, Goku would've gotten STOMPED if Vegeta, Mr.Satan, and Good Buu hadn't been there.
I personally say no!
The main and only problem with the SSJ3 transformation ( being alive ) is the fast energy drain. We can assume that from the first second of the SSJ3 transformation, the energy is draining quickly.
With rapidly draining energy from the very beginning, we can assume that Goku can never used the maximum power of the SSJ3 transformation.
Dead SSJ3 Goku against Pure Boo, different history. Maximum all out SSJ3 power with 0 rapid energy drain.
Personal opinion!
It's probably a rapid energy drain either way, its just less so when Goku's dead. He also did use his maximum power for a while until it faded.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Could be the SSJ3 that was more of the problem. But it's seems to me Kid Boo's limitless endurance and regeneration won the day. I only say he might have won because knowing Dragon Ball he may have pulled something off since they are close and if he just went all out when he was at full power with his attacks he might have managed something. He needed a full minute because he dragged out the battle, he was showing off to Kid Boo and trying to out fight him. Goku would get continuously weaker while Kid Boo stayed fresh so it wouldn't matter who was stronger as they were to close in power for that to matter.
Good explanation! Yes, SSJ3 ( being alive ) fast energy drain, is the main and only problem with that transformation, nothing more.
