Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Incidentally, does anyone else think "Semi-Perfect" Cell is a stupid name? How is something "semi-perfect?" What does that even mean?
Halfway to perfect maybe? We have the initial "imperfect" Cell who strives to become Perfect by absorbing 17 and 18.
Thus, his original form is the first one to see, but to become Perfect (the only form he values and still wants to reach even though he kicked ass until Vegeta came) he needs to absorb both.
So by only absorbing one he becomes semi-perfect.
Semi:
a combining form meaning “half” (semiannual), “partially,” “somewhat” (semiautomatic; semidetached; semiformal).
So he is by this definition half-perfect, partially perfect or somewhat perfect.
This works if you take his entity as his original form and his perfect form only, the semi-perfect form only being an incomplete and undesirable form in the long run (but still better than being in the original form).
valfranx wrote:Daizenshuu even in the session dedicated to manga, Akira put goku as the strongest character, 3 times. guides in the movies / anime, goku was placed with the strongest 3 times. while gohan is said only that he overcame gotenks and powers of ssj2, nothing about ssj3.
Still, the manga makes it clear that U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.
Argument: gohan is stronger than goku! There’s no additional proof goku can with gohan.
Counter Argument: “Internet nerds said that. But neither the author of the story nor the company he worked for have ever said that. It is NOT official. “The Japanese company printed a guidebook that states, goku as the strongest of the universe and vegeta in the guide says that Goku is the only one who could beat kidbuu . This is NOT Internet Nerd opinion, but from OFFICIAL SOURCES; it COUNTS infinitely more than ANY NERD’S OPINION, mine included.”
valfranx wrote:Daizenshuu even in the session dedicated to manga, Akira put goku as the strongest character, 3 times. guides in the movies / anime, goku was placed with the strongest 3 times. while gohan is said only that he overcame gotenks and powers of ssj2, nothing about ssj3.
Still, the manga makes it clear that U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.
Argument: gohan is stronger than goku! There’s no additional proof goku can with gohan.
Counter Argument: “Internet nerds said that. But neither the author of the story nor the company he worked for have ever said that. It is NOT official. “The Japanese company printed a guidebook that states, goku as the strongest of the universe and vegeta in the guide says that Goku is the only one who could beat kidbuu . This is NOT Internet Nerd opinion, but from OFFICIAL SOURCES; it COUNTS infinitely more than ANY NERD’S OPINION, mine included.”
Then there manga quotes with Goku saying he can't beat Super Boo even with Vegeta's help who Gotenks can defeat and Gohan can defeat effortlessly. The whole mission was to return Boo to the fat version as Goku says we need to return him to the very first one of all (which is what he calls Fat Boo when he finds him). And there is the recent Gohan has power surpassing pure saiyans said on the Battle of Gods website. Vegeta's statement came when everyone else was dead.
Do you really hate Goku not being that special in the Boo saga?
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Goku only states three times that he can't beat Super Buu, and twice basically outright says that Super Buu got weaker when he reverted to Kid Buu.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I revert to the statement I stole from some other guy on this site.
"Goku's views on Buu."
Super Buu-"He's too strong! There's no way we can win!"
Buff Buu-"I think he's getting even stronger!"
Pure Buu-"Hot Damn! We got this! BRB!"
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I revert to the statement I stole from some other guy on this site.
"Goku's views on Buu."
Super Buu-"He's too strong! There's no way we can win!"
Buff Buu-"I think he's getting even stronger!"
Pure Buu-"Hot Damn! We got this! BRB!"
LOL. My friend always told me this.
Fat boo - Just an average day for Goku
Super Boo - Fuck this shit. I got kids for a reason
Buff Boo - *Shits himself in fear*
Pure Boo - Bathroom break.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Incidentally, does anyone else think "Semi-Perfect" Cell is a stupid name? How is something "semi-perfect?" What does that even mean?
I don't have a problem with it, although it's probably better if you use the "Complete" naming scheme for Cell (which I really can't form the habit of, despite wanting to). "Semi-Complete" makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
I don't really think it's a good name, but it's what I grew up with so I can't really stop using it. Just like how I think Pure Buu is a better name for the original Majin than Kid Buu.
It's not like it doesn't make any logical sense, though. He's at the halfway point between imperfection and perfection; thus, semi-perfection.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Incidentally, does anyone else think "Semi-Perfect" Cell is a stupid name? How is something "semi-perfect?" What does that even mean?
I don't have a problem with it, although it's probably better if you use the "Complete" naming scheme for Cell (which I really can't form the habit of, despite wanting to). "Semi-Complete" makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
I'm just not a fan of it. I seem to recall LOG 2 using "Nonperfect Cell," which seems kinda redundant after "Imperfect Cell," but I still think it sounds better.
I would even be happy with "Imperfect Cell Grade II" or something like that. It just seems to me that perfection is a pretty black and white deal; you're either perfect, or imperfect. Semi Perfect makes me think that he might have perfect legs or something, but everything else is imperfect.
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:You can just call him second form Cell.
Or "the one with the dumb nose."
I'll stick with Semi-Perfect Cell, since that's what I know him as. I was just pointing out the weirdness of the name.
UNLESS it's a power debate. I call him 50% Completion Cell. or 50% Cell for short.
That's a new one. still I like the Semi-Perfect Cell name. IDK I just really like that name.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I revert to the statement I stole from some other guy on this site.
"Goku's views on Buu."
Super Buu-"He's too strong! There's no way we can win!"
Buff Buu-"I think he's getting even stronger!"
Pure Buu-"Hot Damn! We got this! BRB!"
LOL. My friend always told me this.
Fat boo - Just an average day for Goku
Super Boo - Fuck this shit. I got kids for a reason
Buff Boo - *Shits himself in fear*
Pure Boo - Bathroom break.
Does the "Bathroom break" mean that Goku was scared of Kid Buu or not? I think "this shit is just tedious" would have been better. It does a great job at representing the trouble Goku had when fighting Buu, due to Buu's regeneration and his inexperience as a Super Saiyan 3!
valfranx wrote:Daizenshuu even in the session dedicated to manga, Akira put goku as the strongest character, 3 times. guides in the movies / anime, goku was placed with the strongest 3 times. while gohan is said only that he overcame gotenks and powers of ssj2, nothing about ssj3.
Still, the manga makes it clear that U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.
Argument: gohan is stronger than goku! There’s no additional proof goku can with gohan.
Counter Argument: “Internet nerds said that. But neither the author of the story nor the company he worked for have ever said that. It is NOT official. “The Japanese company printed a guidebook that states, goku as the strongest of the universe and vegeta in the guide says that Goku is the only one who could beat kidbuu . This is NOT Internet Nerd opinion, but from OFFICIAL SOURCES; it COUNTS infinitely more than ANY NERD’S OPINION, mine included.”
You're absolutely correct - I took some involuntary time off due to a particularly biased moderator, and I bought the official manga. It specifically states directly that Goku IS the strongest, not to mention the blatant implications. One clue is the forms of Buu
Kaboom wrote:The most consistent, original, and mostly-official naming scheme we have for the different forms of Majin Boo:
Majin Boo ("Fat"/"Innocent"/Good"): The chubby Boo whom SSj3 Goku fought and SSj Gotenks was intended to fight. The same terms are often applied to him after his split and possibly permanent loss of power. Majin Boo ("Pure Evil"): The gray-colored, sickly-looking thin Boo who emerged from, defeated, and ate the fat one. Named as such because he's no more than a physical embodiment of Boo's evil. Majin Boo ("Evil"): The pink-again, tall, muscular form Boo took after eating his fat self. Named because although he's made up of the same "parts" as Fat Boo, his evil side is now in control. Majin Boo ("Pure"): The small and crazy Majin Boo whom Goku and Vegeta fought and who was finally eradicated by the Spirit Bomb. Named this because he's Boo in his 100% unaltered, original form, with no absorptions or other outer or inner influences affecting his form or power.
Notice who is missing? Well, the famed "Buff Buu" who as far as the Manga is concerned is Kid Buu - is explicitly said to be actually stronger than his previous Evil Buu counterpart. As you pointed out, the Manga states that he was weakened by his previous absorptions, that he was growing in strength, and that only Goku could stop him. Besides Goku's one statement regarding SuperBuu, nothing ever contradicts his obviously superior power. This is especially true toward the final chapter of Z where Gohan isn't mentioned as any sort of Benchmark for Goku/Vegeta to exceed - Buu is.
For all the Fan theories out there, this question has been answered a LONG time ago using the source material. Game over boys.
Biased riiiight. More like "I didn't get my way." The question was answered with Goku himself. Yet apparently Goku isn't a good enough source.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Buff Buu is explicitly said to Kid Buu with the South Kaioshin absorbed- guess what else? It's also explicitly stated that Super transformed into Buff and then transformed AGAIN into Kid. Buff =/= Kid. He's far stronger; Goku says as much himself when he says that they'll get massacred if they try to fight Super Buu but that they can manage something against Kid Buu. I don't know much clearer it could be.
Goku himself outright said that Super Buu was stronger many times. He even compared Super Buu fighting them to Vegetto fighting Kid Buu.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Goku himself outright said that Super Buu was stronger many times. He even compared Super Buu fighting them to Vegetto/Gogeta fighting Kid Buu.
