Raditz/Nappa Battle Power

[freezamite]

But Freeza didn't heal himself, he re-boosted his body. Again, ki doesn't like life points. What Freeza did by increasing his muscles was re-boosting his power beyond its limits. It's like Freeza took and adrenaline shot. Same thing happened to Goku when he transformed into a Super Saiyan for the first time. He wouldn't even walk before that, and he was kicking ass after transforming.

That's your theory, now you have to support it with solid facts based on the manga. In other words, Pilaf was stronger than Perfect Cell, but he didn't want to hurt Goku, but to train him. So he purposedly put him in danger tons of times without killing him. Once Goku grew, he was too old to continue the training, so he retired in peace.
As you see, this doesn't contradict directly the manga at any point.

Because Freeza took him by surprise.

Considering that Freezer was holding himself against the KameHame Ha, did he took the Kamehame also by surprise? Because if not, with a difference in power bigger than the one between Vegeta and Dodoria in favour of Goku, this wouldn't be possible.

He also powered-up from ~2.5% to 50% in an instant.

I wasn't talking about the speed but about the fact that he reached, according to you, his 70% of maximum capacity without using his technique of bulking himself that recovered his Ki.
In other words, if Freezer hadn't been hit by the Genkidama, could he reach his 100% without bulking even for a bit? The way you think of it, it seems that the bulking had nothing to do with the ammount of power, but that it was only a KI restoring technique.

I never said that increasing his muscle mass healed him, it's you who is under that impression.

Even if it didn't heal him, it replenished his bodily energy to it's maximum capacity no matter on which condition he was. So why didn't he undo the bulking process, to bulk again and recover his energy at 100%.

The fact that Nappa powered-up twice and Vegeta once shows that they could decrease their ki to a degree, just not to the same degree the Z-Senshi could.

No, we are speaking of Battle Power here. Nappa and Vegeta never powered up their BP's, that's something Vegeta learned on the earth. Ki sensin doesn't work like a scoutter, so what they did was maybe to change their attitude or to put their powers to work to put a show, but it wasn't anything that affected their battle power.

What you are saying is that Battle Powers work like life-points work in the video games, which isn't the case. They don't lose power, they just can't use all of their power because their bodies are messed up & their stamina drops a lot.

Isn't that exactly the same as not having their full battle powers to fight? If someone that has 10000 BP can't go past 5000 at a certain point, saying that at that point he had 5000 or saying that he couldn't go past 5000 it's exactly the same.

And I disagree.

I see that, the problem is that you limit your answers to justify your points, to give explanations to what I think it's contradictory between your stance and the manga. But you never say why it's impossible for Freezer to be speaking about his relative energy for example. Why do you disagree? You only justify your points demonstrating that it's possible, if the manga was a literary mess, to explain them. But that's the same I did with my "Pilaf > Perfect Cell" theory, and it's a fallacy.

How? Goku gave Cell the senzu, he didn't ask for it. Cell still had more power hiding, and he even had his "Super Saiyan Grade 3" & Power-Weighed states (both of them are similar to Freeza's Full Power state). Goku didn't know if Cell was fighting at full power, and since Cell had lost stamina from their fight, he gave him the senzu to recover it, so that he can have a fair fight with Gohan.

I don't know what's that "super saiyan grade 3" state, but the one where he bulked his body didn't have anything to do with Freezer's bulked state. Cell did the same than Trunks, to sacrifice speed to gain power.
Goku did know that Cell was fighting hiding part of his energy, and since he knew that Cell (according to you) had a ki/stamina recovering technique, why did he give Cell a senzu bean?

I just realized that your fact that Freeza lost power is that statement and... it doesn't say anything about Freeza losing power. All it says is that Freeza is injured, but still stronger than everyone.

If you just realize that is because you may have just forget that another point supporting this lost power is that this is what happens to every single character of the series, Cell included.
And yes, it say it. Even you have said it. If he is "still" stronger than everyone, it means that he is not as strong as he was before, otherwise there's no sense in saying that.

Or, he accepted the x50. He never said that x50 is unsuitable, he just says that it sounds too big.

Weird means weird, and too big, it's too big. If he had accepted the 50x he would've spoken about the 10x multiplier in that guide, but he did it in another guide that was released later, which means that he didn't see that 50x mulitplier until it was published or too late to change it.

To be honest, I wanna know how you figure Oozaru Vegeta to be less than 50,000. That's bugging me.

Vegeta had received a lot of damage from the KKx3. He also spent a lot of energy on the Garlik-ho and lost to the KameHame Ha - KKx4 that even without killing him, it obviously inflicted more damage to him.
Finally, he also lost a lot of energy making the artificial moon, so by the point he starts to transform I doubt he had more than 3,000 BP units.

[Darkprince410]

The way I see it, if he really didn't like the 50x multiplier, then he could easily have just outright said it in the interview. He says that the multiplier was hard for him to visually draw, but that's neither saying that he wasn't able to visualize Goku fifty times stronger, nor is it a statement of his disagreement with 50x. Don't you think that, in a situation like that where he could go on record about it, that he'd just say "No, it's not 50x and the Daizenshuu is wrong in that matter"?

The statement he made in that SEG interview basically establishes that it IS a 50x increase for him, just that when he drew Goku, he designed the transformation with a muscle mass change if it were only a 10x increase. He had a hard time drawing Goku to show a 50x increase (because that'd be a significant increase in muscle mass, likely even higher than that of Ssj Grade 3) and that he felt drawing it with just a 10x increase in mind would be easier.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta had received a lot of damage from the KKx3. He also spent a lot of energy on the Garlik-ho and lost to the KameHame Ha - KKx4 that even without killing him, it obviously inflicted more damage to him.
Finally, he also lost a lot of energy making the artificial moon, so by the point he starts to transform I doubt he had more than 3,000 BP units.

Vegeta was not seriously injured from the Kaioken or the Kamehameha. He's not even breathing hard until the Spirit Bomb wrecks him.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He was noticeably weaker, though.

[TheGmGoken]

Vegeta had received a lot of damage from the KKx3. He also spent a lot of energy on the Garlik-ho and lost to the KameHame Ha - KKx4 that even without killing him, it obviously inflicted more damage to him.
Finally, he also lost a lot of energy making the artificial moon, so by the point he starts to transform I doubt he had more than 3,000 BP units.

Vegeta was not seriously injured from the Kaioken or the Kamehameha. He's not even breathing hard until the Spirit Bomb wrecks him.

It must be that amour. Remember when amour was actually useful

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's your theory, now you have to support it with solid facts based on the manga.

Sure.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Considering that Freezer was holding himself against the KameHame Ha, did he took the Kamehame also by surprise? Because if not, with a difference in power bigger than the one between Vegeta and Dodoria in favour of Goku, this wouldn't be possible.

What are you talking about? The clash lasted for a single page. Goku's Kamehameha & Freeza clashed, and Freeza instantly got out of the Kamehameha and hit a surprised Goku.

I wasn't talking about the speed but about the fact that he reached, according to you, his 70% of maximum capacity without using his technique of bulking himself that recovered his Ki.
In other words, if Freezer hadn't been hit by the Genkidama, could he reach his 100% without bulking even for a bit? The way you think of it, it seems that the bulking had nothing to do with the ammount of power, but that it was only a KI restoring technique.

There wasn't any ki to restore. Freeza didn't use any ki attack to lose ki.

Even if it didn't heal him, it replenished his bodily energy to it's maximum capacity no matter on which condition he was. So why didn't he undo the bulking process, to bulk again and recover his energy at 100%.

Because he didn't lose any ki.

No, we are speaking of Battle Power here. Nappa and Vegeta never powered up their BP's, that's something Vegeta learned on the earth. Ki sensin doesn't work like a scoutter, so what they did was maybe to change their attitude or to put their powers to work to put a show, but it wasn't anything that affected their battle power.

Let's leave that for another time, I still haven't conclude in that topic.

Isn't that exactly the same as not having their full battle powers to fight? If someone that has 10000 BP can't go past 5000 at a certain point, saying that at that point he had 5000 or saying that he couldn't go past 5000 it's exactly the same.

No, they can't punch hard, but they can fire powerful ki blasts. See Goku after using the Kaio-ken x3, yet he could use Kaio-ken x3-4 Kamehameha.

I see that, the problem is that you limit your answers to justify your points, to give explanations to what I think it's contradictory between your stance and the manga. But you never say why it's impossible for Freezer to be speaking about his relative energy for example. Why do you disagree? You only justify your points demonstrating that it's possible, if the manga was a literary mess, to explain them. But that's the same I did with my "Pilaf > Perfect Cell" theory, and it's a fallacy.

Because nothing in his statement says anything about losing power. He basically says "that hurt, but I'm still stronger than that weaklings".

I don't know what's that "super saiyan grade 3" state, but the one where he bulked his body didn't have anything to do with Freezer's bulked state. Cell did the same than Trunks, to sacrifice speed to gain power.

His SSGrade 3 is the form that Trunks used against Cell. Cell used a similar form against Trunks to show that he can do it and that it's useless. The Power Weighed form is the huge form he used against Gohan.

Goku did know that Cell was fighting hiding part of his energy, and since he knew that Cell (according to you) had a ki/stamina recovering technique, why did he give Cell a senzu bean?

I don't believe that Freeza or Cell have a ki/stamina recovering technique. I trusted you in that Freeza had lost power, but it turns out that he didn't lose power, only that he got damaged, but after powering-up, he got back in good shape.
And Goku said something like "I don't know about Cell, but I went all-out". He wasn't sure if Cell was going all-out.

And yes, it say it. Even you have said it. If he is "still" stronger than everyone, it means that he is not as strong as he was before, otherwise there's no sense in saying that.

No, he is still stronger because he didn't get weaker.

Weird means weird, and too big, it's too big. If he had accepted the 50x he would've spoken about the 10x multiplier in that guide, but he did it in another guide that was released later, which means that he didn't see that 50x mulitplier until it was published or too late to change it.

Or, he accepted it even though he thought that it sounds too big.

[Godo]

He was noticeably weaker, though.

The first time Vegeta mentions losing energy is when he uses the artificial moon. I believe that from that moment, he gets weaker (heavy breathing after he makes the ball).
He regains a bit power, but isn't much weaker until the Genki Dama hits him.

[Saiga]

He was noticeably weaker, though.

The first time Vegeta mentions losing energy is when he uses the artificial moon. I believe that from that moment, he gets weaker (heavy breathing after he makes the ball).
He regains a bit power, but isn't much weaker until the Genki Dama hits him.

Actually, just after Vegeta notices the lack of a moon, Kaio makes this comment in Viz's volume 4/20:

Our one hope is that he's gotten weaker...! If we could only hit him with the Genki-Dama!! Hit him with it the way he is now...!!!!

I suppose you could say that Kaio's hoping that Vegeta got weaker, but it sounds to me like he's saying they have a hope in that Vegeta's gotten weaker. Especially by saying they should hit him the way he is now.

I don't know what the original line says, however, as I could not find it in the strength checker. No, wait, here it is:

Chapter: 232 (DBZ 38), P6.3, P7.3
Context: after Vegeta gets sent flying by Goku's Kaio-Ken x4 Kamehameha
Vegeta: “If…if it’s come to this, though I hate how ugly Oozaru is, I’ll transform into one and smash him…!! Kukkukku…As an Oozaru I’m overwhelmingly strong…!!”
Kaio: “But Son Goku has no strength left. Even without Oozaru, the Saiyan may be more than enough for him. But he’s gotten weaker too! The way he is now, if we could only hit him with the Genki-Dama, we’ll win for sure!!!!”

So yes, Vegeta was weakened after the Kaio-ken Kamehameha.

[Godo]

Aah, nice find!

[DannyDBZfanforever]

My battle Powers:

Raditz - 1200
Nappa - 3000 - 3100 (against the Z-gang)
Nappa - 7700 (Against Goku).

[Kakashi]

My battle Powers:

Raditz - 1200
Nappa - 3000 - 3100 (against the Z-gang)
Nappa - 7700 (Against Goku).

Raditz is slightly superior o the Saibamen and Nappa was 4,00 vs the Z Fighters

[DannyDBZfanforever]

I think 4K for Nappa, is still high.
Most of the warriors (Z-Gang) were between 1K and 2K. 3k and 3.5 K is good for Nappa.

[Kakashi]

I think 4K for Nappa, is still high.
Most of the warriors (Z-Gang) were between 1K and 2K. 3k and 3.5 K is good for Nappa.

Piccolo was 2,500 IMO

[Godo]

My battle Powers:

Raditz - 1200
Nappa - 3000 - 3100 (against the Z-gang)
Nappa - 7700 (Against Goku).

Raditz is slightly superior o the Saibamen and Nappa was 4,00 vs the Z Fighters

I think 4K for Nappa, is still high.
Most of the warriors (Z-Gang) were between 1K and 2K. 3k and 3.5 K is good for Nappa.

Piccolo was 2,500 IMO

This is some high-quality discussion going on here!

[VegettoEX]

This is some high-quality discussion going on here!

If you're going to make a sarcastic post with no substance of your own, you're in absolutely no position to be criticizing others' posts. In this case, you're better off keeping your comments to yourself, rather than risking account strikes.

[Godo]

This is some high-quality discussion going on here!

If you're going to make a sarcastic post with no substance of your own, you're in absolutely no position to be criticizing others' posts. In this case, you're better off keeping your comments to yourself, rather than risking account strikes.

Yes, one in five posts of mine in the same thread was sarcastic and without substance.
EDIT: Fine, I have cooled down now. Fair enough.

[freezamite]

The way I see it, if he really didn't like the 50x multiplier, then he could easily have just outright said it in the interview.

1. He said he found the 50x multiplier weird, and that he drew the manga with a 10x increase on mind.

He says that the multiplier was hard for him to visually draw, but that's neither saying that he wasn't able to visualize Goku fifty times stronger, nor is it a statement of his disagreement with 50x.

This is not even an argument, it's an excuse and a really bad one.
Firstly, because we go from "there are no rules on DB so my numbers doesn't have to be coherent with other numbers given" to "there is a rule on how Toriyama has to draw the power-ups", a rule that obviously only exists as an excuse.
When Goku went from earth to Namek he had a 10x power-up, and he didn't change visually speaking at all. When Toriyama speaks about how he drew the SSJ, of course he means that how he drew it in the story, or in other words, it was a 10x increase on his mind when he drew the manga.

Don't you think that, in a situation like that where he could go on record about it, that he'd just say "No, it's not 50x and the Daizenshuu is wrong in that matter"?

1. He is Japanese. This means that he won't never act as if he was Amercian or European.
2. Even if he wasn't Japanese, this was an interview for a guide that used the 50x multiplier in one of their sections, so to assume that something like "those guides are wrong" could make into the final transcription of the interview is beyond my understandings. He said that he 50x multiplier felt weird to him and that he drew the manga with 10x on mind, it's difficult to be more explicit regarding that. It's just that he couldn't outright say "those guides are wrong" because something like that would put him in trouble, remember that it's shueshia who pays him...

The statement he made in that SEG interview basically establishes that it IS a 50x increase for him, just that when he drew Goku, he designed the transformation with a muscle mass change if it were only a 10x increase.

Yes, this is why 410 Goku was drawn so differently than 8000+ Goku who was drawn absolutely different than 90.000 Goku...
No, sorry but no.

Vegeta was not seriously injured from the Kaioken or the Kamehameha. He's not even breathing hard until the Spirit Bomb wrecks him.

And who has said the opposite? But even when not seriously injured he had received a considerable amount of damage at that point. I think that Vegeta still had around 7.000-8.000 I after the Kamehameha x4, the moon drained a lot of his energy and he didn't transform until that moon was created.
By the way, he breathes hard after creating the moon.

Sure.

Sure? Unless on those pages Freezer explains that his bulking technique has recovered his Ki completely, that doesn't proof anything at all.

What are you talking about? The clash lasted for a single page.

Yes, and 3 days can also pass in a single page if the author wants it. In that single page (two pages in fact) Freezer was shown holding the KameHame, so at least he had with that technique the same power as the Kame-Hame Goku threw against him.
I don't see there a difference bigger than the one there was between Vegeta and Dodoria, and I doubt anyone will see it.

There wasn't any ki to restore. Freeza didn't use any ki attack to lose ki.

And two pages ago:

If he lost power from the damage he got through the Genki Dama, he recovered that power, otherwise, he wouldn't be at 100% full power.

Moving goalposts at convenience. So instead of outright admitting that this can't be explained by the guide's numbers, you're launching contradicting messages only to see if some of that fools me or anything?
When I was wrong I admitted my mistake, now I see that you simply put excuses instead of doing that. Good to know.

No, they can't punch hard, but they can fire powerful ki blasts. See Goku after using the Kaio-ken x3, yet he could use Kaio-ken x3-4 Kamehameha.

Yes, and he went from clearly surpassing Vegeta with his KKx3 (and his punches) to not being able to surpass him with his KKx3 KameHame (the one according to you isn't affected). The energy lost is lost and applies to everything, from punches to blasts, as proven by Vegeta himself when after receiving all that damage after the Genkidama he couldn't even kill Goku & the others due to how weak he was.
Seeing how you don't doubt to launch contradictory messages before admitting when something that you say may be wrong, I think that this wasn't a legit opinion but another one of those excuses.

Because nothing in his statement says anything about losing power. He basically says "that hurt, but I'm still stronger than that weaklings".

1. Why does he speaks about his injuries if they aren't a factor? "Even badly injured I'm still stronger than you" implies that being badly injured affected his strength, because if it didn't, this whole phrase doesn't has even the least of senses.
2. Being hurt is something that affected every single character in DB when it came to power lost. Even if nothing was said (it clearly was), then it means that there is nothing different between Freezer and the rest of the characters, which also implies a lost of power due to the injuries.
Another excuse?

His SSGrade 3 is the form that Trunks used against Cell. Cell used a similar form against Trunks to show that he can do it and that it's useless. The Power Weighed form is the huge form he used against Gohan.

What? He uses against Gohan the same Trunks used against him. It's clearly said on the manga.

I trusted you in that Freeza had lost power, but it turns out that he didn't lose power, only that he got damaged, but after powering-up, he got back in good shape.

Oh, so you changed your mind. Define "good shape". He was in "good shape" enough to fight, no one said this wasn't the case. Now if you want to demonstrate that injuries doesn't affect Freezer when they clearly affected Cell be my guest.

And Goku said something like "I don't know about Cell, but I went all-out". He wasn't sure if Cell was going all-out.

Karin told him that he was weaker, so he could at least suspect that. Even if he didn't know, since according to you this bulking technique was to restore someone's ki/power, he still had that under his sleeve so there was no need to give a senzu bean to Cell.
Now it seems that you changed your mind to "the bulking technique doesn't recover one's ki because there was no lost of ki" in which case Cell of course shouldn't have lost any ki either. So why did Goku give him a senzu bean may I ask? He didn't lose any ki, did he?

No, he is still stronger because he didn't get weaker.

Ok, this is at the same level as "Toriyama didn't know how to draw a 50x increase". That sentence doesn't has even the slightest sense if there wasn't any lose of power, it's like saying to anyone "after my last inversion I'm still richer than you" in the sense that you've won money with that inversion.
If Toriyama wrote that sentence how he did, and what he wanted to express was that there was no lose of power, then that sentence was BADLY WRITTEN by Toriyama.
Considering that you're defending that Toriyama was wrong when he said that he drew the manga with a 10x increase on mind, it wouldn't be strange to also imply that he was wrong when he wrote that sentence. But seeing how he wrote the rest of the fights of the manga, he was mistaken in every single fight he drew, and also he always made the same mistake.

Have you ever considered the possibility of being you the one being wrong, instead of Toriyama?

Or, he accepted it even though he thought that it sounds too big.

He accepted something he described as weird? If he did, it was clearly against his will.

I think 4K for Nappa, is still high.
Most of the warriors (Z-Gang) were between 1K and 2K. 3k and 3.5 K is good for Nappa.

Yes, I also think that 4k is a bit too high, but I didn't say it because it would've been even harder to defend against the Daizenshuu supporters.
But I would like to give my opinion on something regarding that. While I think that 3 - 3.5k would be the best number, I don't think we have to take this as a true/literal 3 - 3.5k. Nappa was always at around 8.000 if you had used an scoutter on him, but he got too carried by bad feelings and emotions and he fought so badly and inefficiently that his power was as if he was only that low.
In other words his spirit was disturbed and he couldn't fight as well as he really could.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Sure? Unless on those pages Freezer explains that his bulking technique has recovered his Ki completely, that doesn't proof anything at all.

Look at Goku's & Freeza's eyes. They are in a bad shape before powering-up, and then they returned into a fine shape after powering-up.

Yes, and 3 days can also pass in a single page if the author wants it. In that single page (two pages in fact) Freezer was shown holding the KameHame, so at least he had with that technique the same power as the Kame-Hame Goku threw against him.

We are talking about a fight that supposedly happened in less than 5 minutes. The clash can't be long, and there is no evidence that it was long.

There wasn't any ki to restore. Freeza didn't use any ki attack to lose ki.

And two pages ago:

If he lost power from the damage he got through the Genki Dama, he recovered that power, otherwise, he wouldn't be at 100% full power.

Moving goalposts at convenience. So instead of outright admitting that this can't be explained by the guide's numbers, you're launching contradicting messages only to see if some of that fools me or anything?
When I was wrong I admitted my mistake, now I see that you simply put excuses instead of doing that. Good to know.

I admitted that I was wrong.

Yes, and he went from clearly surpassing Vegeta with his KKx3 (and his punches) to not being able to surpass him with his KKx3 KameHame (the one according to you isn't affected). The energy lost is lost and applies to everything, from punches to blasts, as proven by Vegeta himself when after receiving all that damage after the Genkidama he couldn't even kill Goku & the others due to how weak he was.
Seeing how you don't doubt to launch contradictory messages before admitting when something that you say may be wrong, I think that this wasn't a legit opinion but another one of those excuses.

Gyarik-Ho is Vegeta's most powerful technique, and it is stated to work similarly like the Kamehameha, meaning that it concentrates & amplifies the user's power. So, it was because of Vegeta that Kaio-ken x3 Kamehameha didn't surpassed it, not because of Goku's injuries.

1. Why does he speaks about his injuries if they aren't a factor? "Even badly injured I'm still stronger than you" implies that being badly injured affected his strength, because if it didn't, this whole phrase doesn't has even the least of senses.

Freeza never said such words. That's what he says: "Even having taken this damage, there’s still no way I’ll be done-in by the likes of you!", which means that even though he got damaged, they weren't strong enough to kill him.

2. Being hurt is something that affected every single character in DB when it came to power lost. Even if nothing was said (it clearly was), then it means that there is nothing different between Freezer and the rest of the characters, which also implies a lost of power due to the injuries.

Show me more examples then, other than the fights with Vegeta & Freeza.

What? He uses against Gohan the same Trunks used against him. It's clearly said on the manga.

Doesn't look like the same thing to me. Similar, yes, but not the same. Cell against Gohan looks huger.

Spoiler:

Oh, so you changed your mind. Define "good shape". He was in "good shape" enough to fight, no one said this wasn't the case. Now if you want to demonstrate that injuries doesn't affect Freezer when they clearly affected Cell be my guest.

I didn't change my mind, I re-checked the facts & corrected myself.

And Cell didn't get tired because he had taken damage, he got tired because he was having an even fight with Goku, and used ki attacks like Kamehameha & Barrier. Freeza on the other hand was fucking around for most of the fight.

Now it seems that you changed your mind to "the bulking technique doesn't recover one's ki because there was no lost of ki" in which case Cell of course shouldn't have lost any ki either. So why did Goku give him a senzu bean may I ask? He didn't lose any ki, did he?

Already explained above.

Ok, this is at the same level as "Toriyama didn't know how to draw a 50x increase". That sentence doesn't has even the slightest sense if there wasn't any lose of power, it's like saying to anyone "after my last inversion I'm still richer than you" in the sense that you've won money with that inversion.
If Toriyama wrote that sentence how he did, and what he wanted to express was that there was no lose of power, then that sentence was BADLY WRITTEN by Toriyama.
Considering that you're defending that Toriyama was wrong when he said that he drew the manga with a 10x increase on mind, it wouldn't be strange to also imply that he was wrong when he wrote that sentence. But seeing how he wrote the rest of the fights of the manga, he was mistaken in every single fight he drew, and also he always made the same mistake.

Just because he made some mistakes doesn't mean that he made mistakes everywhere. However, that doesn't mean he is always right. Also, you don't write your words when they interview you. You speak.

Have you ever considered the possibility of being you the one being wrong, instead of Toriyama?

Toriyama himself admits that we shouldn't take his numbers so seriously in the very same interview, and since x10 doesn't fit in the manga I'm reading, it's possible that Toriyama is wrong, as forgetful as he is. He has admitted it countless times.

He accepted something he described as weird? If he did, it was clearly against his will.

Why wouldn't he? Weird doesn't equal with bad or wrong, and it's a freaking comic we are talking about.

[rereboy]

Vegeta had received a lot of damage from the KKx3. He also spent a lot of energy on the Garlik-ho and lost to the KameHame Ha - KKx4 that even without killing him, it obviously inflicted more damage to him.
Finally, he also lost a lot of energy making the artificial moon, so by the point he starts to transform I doubt he had more than 3,000 BP units.

Vegeta was not seriously injured from the Kaioken or the Kamehameha. He's not even breathing hard until the Spirit Bomb wrecks him.

Gohan, who had a power reading of 2800 when he was enraged by Piccolo's death, put up a very decent fight agaisnt Vegeta before he got hit by the Genki Dama. That would only happen if Vegeta had lost a lot of power.

[freezamite]

Look at Goku's & Freeza's eyes. They are in a bad shape before powering-up, and then they returned into a fine shape after powering-up.

WoW, this is one of the worst excuses ever. Firstly, Goku's eye expresses how tired he is, while Freezer's eye is a consequence of him being injured, and no, he doesn't open it because of the power up, he opens it bit by bit like when someone gets some damage on the eye and opens it.
Look, this time I've read all your message before answering it quote by quote, and this is hilarious to the point where you are here trying to defend a healing/restoring power and at the same message saying that Freezer didn't had to restore his ki because he didn't lose any of that, that you were wrong about that he had to restore any ki.

If you were defending anything close to a solid conception of the manga this wouldn't happen to you, but since you're saying whatever is necessary to defend your stance at any cost you're of course committing errors like that one.

We are talking about a fight that supposedly happened in less than 5 minutes. The clash can't be long, and there is no evidence that it was long.

Even if it lasted 10 seconds, compare it to what happened between Vegeta's random ki-blast and Dodoria. Not only that, but Freezer punches Goku before this Kamehame and he also punches him afterwards. Remember that you're saying that there was more difference between Goku and Freezer than between Vegeta and Dodoria, are you still sure about that?

I admitted that I was wrong.

If this was the case then you wouldn't have made up that "eyes theory" of yours to try to explain how Freezer regained his strength, like Goku did.
You haven't admitted your errors, you've just put two contradictory excuses to try to avoid admitting that those Daizenshuu numbers contradict the manga, like the author said.

Gyarik-Ho is Vegeta's most powerful technique, and it is stated to work similarly like the Kamehameha, meaning that it concentrates & amplifies the user's power. So, it was because of Vegeta that Kaio-ken x3 Kamehameha didn't surpassed it, not because of Goku's injuries.

If it works like the Kame-Hame-Ha, and punches work like punches, why would the KKx3 KameHame be any different than the KKx3 punches? It doesn't make any sense at all...

Freeza never said such words. That's what he says: "Even having taken this damage, there’s still no way I’ll be done-in by the likes of you!", which means that even though he got damaged, they weren't strong enough to kill him.

That depends on the translation, but it's exactly the same meaning. "Even having taken this damage/Even being badly hurt", if damage doesn't affect him, why the hell is putting that on the sentence? But you're not only speaking for Freezer, you're saying that injuries doesn't affect on the target's power at all, so why is Freezer stating an (according to you) evidence in a way so badly written that doesn't make any sense?

Show me more examples then, other than the fights with Vegeta & Freeza.

1. Raditz stating how weakened he was left after Gohan's attack (and Vegeta confirming it afterwards).
2. Raditz impressed by how much strength Goku still has despite being so injured (which implies that strength is lost when injured).
3. Vegeta to Zarbon

Chapter: 268 (DBZ 74), P8.1-5
Context: Vegeta thinks Zarbon’s strength has fallen from the pre-emptive attack and brags about his own increase in power.
Vegeta: “Looks like my preemptive attack had an effect…Your stamina’s fallen quite a bit, hasn’t it? Zarbon, your death is close.”

4. Freezer to Nail

Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P10.5
Context: after Nail regrows his arm
Freeza: “This is a surprise! So you can regenerate? But even though you’ve restored yourself, it changes nothing. Besides, it seems that you can’t recover your stamina. Your battle power has fallen from what it was before…”

5. Cell

Chapter: 401 (DBZ 207), P9.2
Context: after blowing the top of Cell’s body off
Goku: “What is this?...Despite being in that condition, he still has a lot of ki left…”

Chapter: 401 (DBZ 207), P12.1
Context: after Cell regenerates
Goku: “…But even your ki fell quite a bit from that.”

(Before you put the excuse of him loosing ki from regenerating and not the injuries, the first quote wouldn't make any sense if that was what Goku meant).

6. Gohan

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”

7. The whole Bu-Babidí spaceship saga, where Babidí absorbed the Ki lost through the injuries of the fighters, which of course implies that Ki is lost when one is injured.

There are of course other examples, but with those it's more than enough to confirm that injuries implied a loss of ki/BP.

Doesn't look like the same thing to me. Similar, yes, but not the same. Cell against Gohan looks huger.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 411 (DBZ 217), P8.1
Context: after Cell bulks up
Trunks: “He’s using a transformation that’s too concerned with power, so his speed can’t keep up…Cell himself is making the same mistake he pointed out to me…! He’s really lost it…”

It's described like this, and even when it's true that the second seems bigger (it may be due to the perspective or even the fact that Gohan was really small in comparison) at best it seems the same technique taken to the limit. Even if it wasn't exactly the same he showed against Trunks but a more extreme version of it, it still was a transformation that traded speed to gain power, which means that it wasn't the same thing Freezer did.

And Cell didn't get tired because he had taken damage, he got tired because he was having an even fight with Goku, and used ki attacks like Kamehameha & Barrier. Freeza on the other hand was fucking around for most of the fight.

It's not a matter of getting tired, but a matter of getting wakened.

Already explained above.

Yes, and it's a shame that you've given contradictory explanations because or Freezer's eyes are according to you a proof that he recovered his lost strength like Goku did after enraging to the point of becoming a SSJ, or he didn't lose any strength so there wasn't any necessity to explain anything regarding Freezer's eyes.
Sorry, but until now I thought you really believed all what you were saying like I do, and now I only see excuses based on nothing besides your desires to defend the Daizenshuu numbers at any cost (which is weird because you had no problems to admit that those 4000 were too low for Nappa).

Just because he made some mistakes doesn't mean that he made mistakes everywhere. However, that doesn't mean he is always right.

Yes, but he is the author of the series, which means that if he was right or if he was wrong it's something that has to be demonstrated by contradicting facts of their series, and not contradicting interpretations of it.
In other words, Toriyama said (or put in Piccolo's mouth) that a Namek can regenerate no-problem if his head it's left intact and he still has enough power left to do so, but Cell regenerated "piccolo style" with his head blown. Those are two facts that contradict themselves, because if Nameks had that limitation, then Cell should have had to die against Goku.
It's a contradiction because one can't happen if the other is true, and vice-versa.

On the other hand, Freezer loosing power through the injuries is something that happens in every single fight, it's also implied by Freezer's words, and it's also valid for him when he takes several damage later on the fight. Not only that, but it's never said or implied that he could restore any of his lost ki with any technique. If all those facts from the manga weren't enough, you have the author's word that he wrote that fight thinking of Goku having had a 10x power up compared to his normal strength (that he fully regained as can be seen on chapter 325 pages 10-11-12-13) which we know that couldn't be possible if Freezer had his normal strength (because he beat a 10x technique like it was nothing while at 50% and later he even surpassed a 20x technique with that same power).
Here the facts are all going towards a solid explanation, confirmed by the author himself.

Also, you don't write your words when they interview you. You speak.

That's why I said:

Considering that you're defending that Toriyama was wrong when he said that he drew the manga

Toriyama himself admits that we shouldn't take his numbers so seriously in the very same interview, and since x10 doesn't fit in the manga I'm reading, it's possible that Toriyama is wrong, as forgetful as he is. He has admitted it countless times.

Toriyama admitting that opens up a possibility, of course, but that's if it really didn't fit the manga. The problem is, doesn't it really fit? I mean, as it has been seen in tons and tons of fights, that 10x power up coupled with Freezer's injuries and loss of power fit the manga perfectly.

He accepted something he described as weird? If he did, it was clearly against his will.

Why wouldn't he? Weird doesn't equal with bad or wrong, and it's a freaking comic we are talking about.

Well, it surely doesn't but it also implies that this is not what he thought as an author. In other words, you can think it's 50x if that makes you happier, but Toriyama drew it with 10x on mind and on the manga (and if you go by the manga alone) it's a 10x increase.
Then if you prefer to go by the Daizenshuu and give it more credibility to what's seen on the manga, that's fine and then it would be a x50 increase.
But going by the manga alone it's a 10x increase.