Watching DB series Japanese (1st time) COMPLETE

[Valerius Dover]

Finished the Freeza Arc, and that Garlic Jr. filler. Goku vs Freeza was awesome, loved every minute... all 5 of them.

Garlic Jr. Arc was okay, I never liked it much to begin with, but I've only seen it in english, it's much more bearable this time around. Maron's voice... is grating... I can tell how dumb she is without reading the subtitles, she screams "no brains". Also, having a more proper translation cleared up any confusion on why Garlic Jr. came back and why Kami's predecessors wouldn't let him through. I was always lost with that.

I'm about to hit Trunks' appearance, after another filler episode I think (the one with Gohan's tutor). I'm looking forward to it.

What was this translation difference, specifically? I've only seen the dub, but I never really thought much about why he came back, or what the deal with Kami's predecessors being assholes was.

[DarkPrince_92]

Maybe it's not so much better translated, but I know exactly what he's doing. Garlic Jr. wanted his Demon Clan to run the earth, and make it a place of suffering and chaos. Oh, and of course get back at Goku and Gohan. I thought he simply wanted revenge and to rule Earth, I don't think the dub got any more specific than that.

The thing with the previous guardian is simple. Kami is not supposed to be there under any circumstance. I think that was the same in the dub for the most, but it was laid out better in the subtitles I read. It's been a while since I've seen the dub.

Apparently when Kami's hand was disappearing, his spirit was being severed from his body, and Piccolo reacted accordingly. Didn't know that either.

Last thing... these episode titles have the BIGGEST spoilers.

[Valerius Dover]

Last thing... these episode titles have the BIGGEST spoilers.

One of the reasons I always see something in English first. But then again, we had Dende's Demise and The End of Vegeta.

[ABED]

Apparently the titles were targeted at those who had read the manga, which I find to be a weird creative choice. I know there's a school of thought that it's just another rational choice and no one is better than the other, but I say BS on that. It makes little sense to target a show mainly at people who are already familiar with the source material. Sure, there's overlap, but there are plenty of people who's DB experience is purely the anime. I much prefer the succinctness of the English titles, and I also like it when they use a part of the Japanese title, e.g. Embodiment of Fire.

[TheGmGoken]

Last thing... these episode titles have the BIGGEST spoilers.

One of the reasons I always see something in English first. But then again, we had Dende's Demise and The End of Vegeta.

I feel bad for y'all. You guys had titles in the epic Goku vs Freeza fight and who's going to win!? Epic fight and then you see this.

"Freeza.....Defeated!"
It was the last 3 minutes of the damn episode. Before Goku lost. Also ABED I'm guessing the manga was HUGE there in Japan and the majority if nor damn near everyone own the manga so it didn't effect them. So even if a small percentage only knew by the anime. They targeted the majority.

[Valerius Dover]

Last thing... these episode titles have the BIGGEST spoilers.

One of the reasons I always see something in English first. But then again, we had Dende's Demise and The End of Vegeta.

I feel bad for y'all. You guys had titles in the epic Goku vs Freeza fight and who's going to win!? Epic fight and then you see this.

"Freeza.....Defeated!"
It was the last 3 minutes of the damn episode. Before Goku lost. Also ABED I'm guessing the manga was HUGE there in Japan and the majority if nor damn near everyone own the manga so it didn't effect them. So even if a small percentage only knew by the anime. They targeted the majority.

Frieza Defeated LOL. I remember this one. He isn't even defeated in this episode, though. This is 104. Mighty Blast of Rage (105) is where he goes down. (Not for good, but for the time being).

[ABED]

I feel bad for y'all. You guys had titles in the epic Goku vs Freeza fight and who's going to win!? Epic fight and then you see this.

"Freeza.....Defeated!"
It was the last 3 minutes of the damn episode. Before Goku lost. Also ABED I'm guessing the manga was HUGE there in Japan and the majority if nor damn near everyone own the manga so it didn't effect them. So even if a small percentage only knew by the anime. They targeted the majority.

Why must people explain stuff to me that I understand? I get it, but it's asinine. Even if nearly everyone's read it, to simply assume they've seen it. What about the generations yet to come? How does an episode title and a NEP that don't spoil things interfere with the majority's enjoyment? It's just as easy to say that the fight reaches its conclusion as it is to say "Goku defeats Freeza next time on Dragon Ball Z!"

[TheGmGoken]

Why must people explain stuff to me that I understand? I get it, but it's asinine. Even

What's with the attitude? I was just putting it my input. Ignore of you didn't need more information.

[ABED]

There was no attitude, it was written in exasperation. It's handy to remember that tone is hard to convey in an internet post.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No he's not, going after the DBs was an act of defiance.

Even if his mission on Earth was a betrayal to Freeza, he still was an underling of Freeza at this point, since he went back to Freeza's base to heal. So, he is still considered Freeza's henchman.

I don't think you understand quite what an arc is. There Is no Namek and Freeza arc. It's all the Freeza arc. Also, the 25th Budokai is part of the Buu arc. Arcs have a beginning, middle, and end.

I do understand what an arc is, and all the arcs I mentioned do have a beginning, middle, and end.

He did say it, but it makes no sense why he would try and avenge a race he doesn't care for.

You mean a race he didn't care for, in the past. After Vegeta's death, he accepted his origins, claiming to be a Saiyan raised on Earth, instead of saying that he is an Earthling and not a Saiyan like he did before that.


Anyway, this is getting too long & off-topic, so may we agree that we disagree?

[ABED]

Just because he went back to the base (one of many) to heal doesn't make him an underling. His act of defiance was him striking out on his own.

I do understand what an arc is, and all the arcs I mentioned do have a beginning, middle, and end.

No the don't, the Budokai is part of the Buu arc. The tournament is a backdrop but it's not the story. The so called Namek arc doesn't have a beginning, middle, and end.

You mean a race he didn't care for, in the past. After Vegeta's death, he accepted his origins, claiming to be a Saiyan raised on Earth, instead of saying that he is an Earthling and not a Saiyan like he did before that.

Anyway, this is getting too long & off-topic, so may we agree that we disagree?

He had accepted his origins before. By that point he didn't have a problem that he was a Saiyan by blood, he just didn't care for the actions of his race.

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't think you understand quite what an arc is. There Is no Namek and Freeza arc. It's all the Freeza arc. Also, the 25th Budokai is part of the Buu arc. Arcs have a beginning, middle, and end.

I do understand what an arc is, and all the arcs I mentioned do have a beginning, middle, and end.

I do feel compelled to ask, because I'm honestly, genuinely curious, that if you do consider the pre-Freeza-fighting part of the Freeza arc to be a separate Namek arc and the 25th Budoukai to be a separate arc from the Majin Boo arc, what exactly is the "beginning, middle, and end" of those? I'd be especially curious to know what the "end" is. And I don't mean what chapter it ends on, but what the overall story of that arc is, and how the conflicts established in it are resolved by the point you say is the end. Actually, I'm not sure if you mentioned this one too, but if you consider "Androids/Artificial Humans" to be separate from "Cell," I really, really would like to know what the conclusion to that one is.

[kei17]

Speaking of spoilers in Japanese episode titles, I heard that the staff had often consciously included a spoiler in the first half of an episode title, which appears in TV program listings and sticks out in them.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Just because he went back to the base (one of many) to heal doesn't make him an underling. His act of defiance was him striking out on his own.

A CIA agent that leaks information to others is still a CIA agent.

He had accepted his origins before. By that point he didn't have a problem that he was a Saiyan by blood, he just didn't care for the actions of his race.

And apparently, now he cares.

I do feel compelled to ask, because I'm honestly, genuinely curious, that if you do consider the pre-Freeza-fighting part of the Freeza arc to be a separate Namek arc and the 25th Budoukai to be a separate arc from the Majin Boo arc, what exactly is the "beginning, middle, and end" of those? I'd be especially curious to know what the "end" is. And I don't mean what chapter it ends on, but what the overall story of that arc is, and how the conflicts established in it are resolved by the point you say is the end. Actually, I'm not sure if you mentioned this one too, but if you consider "Androids/Artificial Humans" to be separate from "Cell," I really, really would like to know what the conclusion to that one is.

The Namek arc concludes with the defeat of Freeza's henchmen. The Artificial Humans arc concludes the part of the story where #17 & #18 are the main threat, with the introduction of Cell. The 25th TB arc concludes the story of the Z-Senshi meeting in the tournament for fun, starting the plot about Majin Boo.

I didn't make these divisions, they are all official (I only made up the 28th TB arc).

[Gaffer Tape]

The Namek arc concludes with the defeat of Freeza's henchmen. The Artificial Humans arc concludes the part of the story where #17 & #18 are the main threat, with the introduction of Cell. The 25th TB arc concludes the story of the Z-Senshi meeting in the tournament for fun, starting the plot about Majin Boo.

I didn't make these divisions, they are all official (I only made up the 28th TB arc).

That's not answering my question, though. I already said I wasn't asking you to tell me what point in the story your arc divisions stop. I already know that. And I also know you didn't make them up. Even this very website uses a lot of those on its episode guide.

But you said you understood that an arc had to have "a beginning, a middle, and an end." That is, that you understand narrative structure. So I was asking you to explain to me how your preferred divisions fulfill a narrative structure that contains a beginning, a middle, and an end. And once again, that's not asking you to tell me what the beginning point, the midpoint, and the endpoint are. That's asking you to tell me what goals are established at the beginning of the arc, what conflicts the characters encounter in the middle that attempt to keep the characters from achieving their goals, and how they manage to achieve their goals by the end. In other words, what's set up, and how is it resolved?

For example, in my division of the Freeza arc, the gang travels to the planet Namek in order to get the Dragon Balls to wish their friends back to life, only to find its people subjugated by Freeza and they themselves a potential target and trapped until Goku arrives. To complicate matters further, Vegeta arrives trying to find and defeat both sides. By the end, Goku defeats Freeza, the Namekian people are revived and saved, and the gang wishes their friends back just like they set out to do.

That's obviously a very truncated telling of the arc, but you can see how its conflicts are set up and resolved. Since your Namek arc begins at the same point my Freeza arc does, I assume it contains the same conflicts and goals. So that's the reason I'm asking you this question. If you agree with me that the arc opens with those points needing resolving, are they resolved with "the defeat of Freeza's henchmen"? If so, how? If the Artificial Humans arc ends with #17 and #18 beating the crap out of our heroes and driving away, does that resolve the issues established by Trunks at the beginning? And if so, how?

That's what I'm asking.

[Ajay]

I feel like arc designations are always going to very arbitrary and rough. For Z, I personally use Saiyan, Freeza, Artificial Humans, Cell, Boo. If I need to refer to specific parts of those, I'll use things like 'Great Saiyaman' or 'Tournament' etc.

My reasoning for the Artificial Humans/Cell designation is that the Artificial Humans essentially become irrelevant once Cell pops up. They're no longer a significant threat. Sure, they're a vital plot point but the entire focus is put on Cell and his aims rather than theirs. They begin to serve as transitional character for Cell rather than being the focus on their own arc.

At the same time, I totally understand why someone wouldn't want to differentiate between the two as they do flow into each other so seamlessly.

[thomas1up]

At the same time, I totally understand why someone wouldn't want to differentiate between the two as they do flow into each other so seamlessly.

I always refer as the Artificial Human arc since Cell is an Artificial Human as well.

[Gaffer Tape]

I feel like arc designations are always going to very arbitrary and rough. For Z, I personally use Saiyan, Freeza, Artificial Humans, Cell, Boo. If I need to refer to specific parts of those, I'll use things like 'Great Saiyaman' or 'Tournament' etc.

My reasoning for the Artificial Humans/Cell designation is that the Artificial Humans essentially become irrelevant once Cell pops up. They're no longer a significant threat. Sure, they're a vital plot point but the entire focus is put on Cell and his aims rather than theirs. They begin to serve as transitional character for Cell rather than being the focus on their own arc.

At the same time, I totally understand why someone wouldn't want to differentiate between the two as they do flow into each other so seamlessly.

Of course it's arbitrary to an extent, especially given how many arcs lead right into the next one, and carry on plot points, etc.

While I do stand by my decisions and can expound on precisely why I choose the way I do, I didn't ask DBZGTKOSDH that question in order to trap him, to go, "Aha. See? You can't answer my question." I ask because, if those who disagree with me are using narrative structure to divide their arcs, I'm genuinely curious to know how they see those arcs in order for them to fit that structure. I really do want to understand because it honestly makes no sense to me at all.

This is not about whether or not they flow together. It's just that, as I see it, if you just take the first half of the Cell arc and call it the Artificial Humans arc... there's no story there. Trunks comes from the future to warn about artificial humans devastating the world, killing all the heroes, and Goku dying of a heart disease. They train. They engage the Artificial Humans in a minor skirmish. They're left for dead. The villains go off to find and kill Goku who is bedridden because of his disease. And they all live happily ever after. The... end...? As far as I can see, that's not a story. It's just a bunch of plot points with no payoff or resolution. Yes, introducing Cell changes the nature of the conflict, but you could say the same thing about switching out #19 and #20 for #17 and #18. So that's why I'm asking: if you see the story this way, tell me the story you see, please.

[Ajay]

What are you using as your narrative structure though? I feel like a three act one is far too simple for Dragon Ball. If you then try and throw things into Freytag's pyramid; where is everything going to go? I feel like it just doesn't fit into many of the traditional narrative structures.



Trunks arriving and explaining the set-up would fall under exposition? Rising action would be the initial fights (Vegeta vs. #19). Climax or turning point would be the awakening of #17 and #18 followed by their fights falling into falling action?

Where do you place Cell's arrival? Do you feel like there should be two climaxes?



One climax being #17 and #18's awakening and the other being Cell's revival? It's such a long arc, I don't think you can put them all together. Where then does the announcement of the Cell Games go?

Does Freytag simply not work? Do you need something far more complex? Does the show work better with the monomyth?



Perhaps that works better as it's far looser. The supernatural aid certainly falls in line with Trunks' prophecies as well as The Room of Spirit & Time.

Damn, this is all fascinating to me. I've never really thought to sit down and try and work out exactly how Dragon Ball works! Please don't take all of those questions as me trying to poke at you or anything; you've just awakened a real interest for me and I'm now really interested to hear what you have to think!

I might have to go away for a bit and think about how this would all work. It's hard!

[ABED]

A CIA agent that leaks information to others is still a CIA agent.

This isn't that at all. Vegeta isn't a mole working on the inside. He's gone rogue.

And no he doesn't care for the actions of his race. I meant he didn't approve of them.