Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the end?

[rereboy]

Vegeta, in general, was a bastard and the good he did was barely enough to cover up some of the mistakes/bad things that he is responsible for since he came to Earth, let alone atone for all the bad things he has done in his life.

However, this is only from a real world point of view. In Dragon Ball, all serious aspects are toned down from reality a lot and characters are much more in-the-now and less willing to hold on to grudges against people that they no longer perceive as really dangerous than realistic people would be.

So, was he too easily forgiven?

In-universe, I think his treatment is coherent. Its made clear that he is going to hell before he dies agaisnt Fat Buu and its left ambiguous if his final change in the series and his acknowledgment of Goku after that would be enough to tip the scales into him not going to Hell. Porunga classified him as a person who isn't "really bad" but its unclear if that means that he considers him good and worthy of getting into Heaven or if he just doesn't include him in the baddest bunch, not to mention that Porunga's classification is not necessarily Enma's classification, who is the one who will decide Vegeta's fate once he dies (again).

Out of universe, obviously he deserved far worse (but what he deserved, looking at the big picture, wouldn't necessarily be the most useful thing since he is one of the most powerful beings on the universe which makes him a powerful ally).

[ParkerAL]

While it's certainly true that most people go along with the pack, they still have free will. Morality isn't something determined by gods or society.

To an extent, it is. Society as a whole creates standards of morality through enforcing what it considers acceptable behavior. Of course, the moral standards of individual people can vary widely, but on average they are still heavily shaped by the values of their shared culture. An American or European today will generally have morals vastly different from the average citizen of the Roman Empire, who thought it was perfectly alright to watch people get mauled by lions in the Colosseum, or the Aztecs, who believed human sacrifice was a-okay.

It's also not necessarily a matter of going along with the pack, but choosing to believe what the pack says is correct, because it's the only thing you have ever known.

No matter how much good he does, his evil will over shadow his good. Just because his good is spot lighted in the show doesn't make his bad atrocities hold less weight on morality.
Think about Chris Benoit. He donated to charity and people looked up to his tenacity and his family man qualities. Yet, he murdered his family and committed suicide and will only be remembered for that one evil act. Everything he did good became irrelevant because of his one evil act.

If it's possible for someone to wipe away all their good deeds with one evil act, what makes it impossible for the opposite to also be true? Comparing Chris Benoit to Vegeta doesn't really work, because he ended his life on a bad note, while Vegeta's truly heinous deeds are all in the past.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You are telling me you could forgive a person who killed his wife and kid if "He turned his life around after the fact."

There are no words. Really. There are no words.


I'm leaving the thread. Seriously, its a service to my mental health and my wall. And I dont want to insult anyone.

So yeah.

Bye you guys. See ya in better threads.

[Kamiccolo9]

You are telling me you could forgive a person who killed his wife and kid if "He turned his life around after the fact."

There are no words. Really. There are no words.


I'm leaving the thread. Seriously, its a service to my mental health and my wall. And I dont want to insult anyone.

So yeah.

Bye you guys. See ya in better threads.

Numerous religions promote forgiveness as one of, if not THE most important virtue someone can have. I mean, the most widespread religion on the planet has, as one of it's most crucial tenants, someone showing forgiveness to the people who murdered his son.

So yes, it is within the realm of possibility that forgiveness is an option in the situation you described.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm religious. I do think forgiveness is a beautiful thing. I do have a character who I like, but he killed lots of people.Its Tai Lung from Kung Fu Panda.But I read fanfics where he repents and actually turns his life around, none of his crimes are handwaved and people who dislike him are not portrayed as MEAN HATERS who cant give him a break. But people here dont even suggest that! Its just "Vegeta is a good guy now! Let him be you hater!". No one has ever suggested that the next movie should focus on his redemption. Nope. He's hunky dory as he is.

Also, If you wonder why I didnt touch the whole Chris Benoit thing, its because even as much as I believe in forgiveness there ARE limits. GOD. I seriously cant believe you can forgive a guy who kiilled HIS CHILD. Not even Vegeta was so repulsive! This is not aimed at you Kamiccolo you are cool. GOD. You are trying to apply shitty Shonen Logic TO REAL LIFE.

And now, I leave. PLEASE dont make me come back to the thread by telling me something. Pretend I stopped existing. Ok?


Se ya.

[shinmaru]

Thank YOU1!!


Seriously I like Vegeta, but his mewing fanboys make me puke.

Not fans, fanboys. As in, not people who do acknowledge that Vegeta SHOULDNT be getting away with all this.

Hahaha if you don't like it. Maybe you should ask someone to draw a page with BEJITA! Getting burned in hell so you can have your fantasy come true, because you won't get it from Toriyama.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I dont want to see him burning in hell.I just dont like how you and the apologists just say "OMG LEAVE HIM ALONE YOU HATER".

The thing that DOES make me want to see him in hell is his apologists (Not fans, as in people who like the character but know he doesnt deserve any forgivenss) casual disregard for all his victims.


I would pay millions to see your reaction to him actually going to hell. Seriously.

AND STOP TELLING ME STUFF I WANT TO LEAVE THIS THREAD FOR GOOD DAMMIT.

[RandomGuy96]

So, when did he "he repeatedly abused his son and nearly killed his wife more than once"? You are making it sound as if Vegeta is a devil husband/father that is beating his family.

He punched Trunks in the face and nearly killed Bulma at the tournament. These are repeats of what he did in the Cell arc.

Sure, Vegeta is lying to himself, and doesn't love his family...

Yep.

He is taking much greater risks by doing that though. He went through the hard way instead of the easy way. Which may be stupid, but not an evil act.

It's evil, from my point of view, because he's again putting his own ego over the lives of everyone else.

As I explained, they are not actually all knowing (my mistake for saying so), but they can know everything you ask them. So, if Porunga says that Vegeta isn't a really bad guy anymore, then he isn't an evil bad guy anymore.

Proof that they'll know every single thing you ask them. I'd also like to see proof that they can judge by the objective standards of the universe whether or not someone is "really, really bad", especially when the phrasing of the wish itself required subjective reasoning.

Why is he still a bad guy? And why is Pilaf in Boo arc a really bad guy?

Because he did nothing to make up for all the evil acts he committed. Again, you don't get off the hook for a life of murder just because you decided to chill and relax by the time you became middle aged.

So, a fine person feels nice for committing murder, not to mention multiple genocides?

Has this person committed any murder? No? Okay then.

So, "BoG is BS because I don't like it".

No, "BOG is BS because it's BS". Which is consistent with the rest of BOG. It's a sad day when Majin Buu has to be the voice of reason.

What's wrong with killing Vegeta is that most people who have done bad things in Dragonball are the kind of people who, if given the opportunity, could turn over a new leaf and, a lot of the time, it turns out that they take that opportunity. Even Majin Buu almost became a good guy thanks to Mr. Satan and, thanks to Goku, even his evil half got reincarnated as a good guy. If the point was to kill off all the bad guys all the time and police the world (and eventually the galaxy) for wrongdoing like this was the Galactic Patrol or something, there still wouldn't be much of a Galactic Patrol to begin with because all the characters that started out as antagonists would've never been given an opportunity to become better people whether they were killed or not.

You're seriously comparing the others to Vegeta? Because as far as I know, none of them ever committed genocide. Or murdered a village full of civilians and bragged about it.

Kind of a small cast after you decide that shoving a man in a room where he'll either starve to death in a couple days or become so incredibly strong that he goes back out the doorway and kills all the protagonists (all one of them since everyone else is a bad guy who deserves punishment) without much of a struggle is somehow a suitable punishment for somebody.

Uh huh. How do you expect him to get this random super mega boost to place him above Ultimate Gohan? He's trapped in the ROSAT alone. He has no weights, no sparring partners, no way to adjust the gravity, no extra food to facilitate intense exercise. This is just taking the merciful option, I'd be more in favor of Gohan/Goku/Gotenks/Buu just killing him.\

That's what's wrong with killing Vegeta. You live in a universe where death, for most people, is a temporary setback whether they know it or not (even Freeza's coming back!!) and you try to apply real life morals and punishments to people who you have no real way to punish aside from having someone stronger kill them. Even then, depending on which episodes of the anime you consider canon, they might end up getting reincarnated or they'll somehow keep their bodies and cause trouble in the Afterlife; which we're sure there is one that and that makes death in itself a lot less scary. If you go by what Goku sometimes does in the movies, he pretty much only stays in the Afterlife because it's the rules, not because he has no way to get back to the living world.

Nope. Evil people don't get bodies, they're powerless clouds that quickly get reincarnated, so there's no harm in killing him. Heck, Vegeta wouldn't even be sent to Hell as we know it, he'd simply be erased from existence, the raw materials that can be extracted from him (i.e. his soul) being used in the construction of another being. The dragon balls are not remotely relevant to this conversation, and I wish people would stop pretending that they are. 99% of the people Vegeta killed never got to come back.

[shinmaru]

Postby rereboy » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:58 pm

Vegeta, in general, was a bastard and the good he did was barely enough to cover up some of the mistakes/bad things that he is responsible for since he came to Earth, let alone atone for all the bad things he has done in his life.

However, this is only from a real world point of view. In Dragon Ball, all serious aspects are toned down from reality a lot and characters are much more in-the-now and less willing to hold on to grudges against people that they no longer perceive as really dangerous than realistic people would be.

So, was he too easily forgiven?

In DragonBall universe no. Because I think if Bejita didn't come back the situation would be a disaster without Bejitto around! Buu wins and destroys Hell and Heaven and the universe.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Again, Bejita allowed Buu to be released. Without him, problem solved.

I wonder why no apologist has pointed out that without Bejita there would be no Torankusu to warn Son Gokuu about the evil of Seru.

Sure, they could just use Buruma and actually make her a Sarah Connor of sorts. But still, I wonder why havent they.




And yes, Final Post in this thread I promise.

[shinmaru]

The thing that DOES make me want to see him in hell is his apologists (Not fans, as in people who like the character but know he doesnt deserve any forgivenss) casual disregard for all his victims.


I would pay millions to see your reaction to him actually going to hell. Seriously.

If the Animation is done right I, will love to see it. With nice 3D flame CGI effects.

AND STOP TELLING ME STUFF I WANT TO LEAVE THIS THREAD FOR GOOD DAMMIT.

leave! I don't think anyone here is stopping you.

[superfunk]

This thread has gotten funny, cure dragon sounds like a tumblr feminists talking about apologists.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Really? Because I think its sad. REALLY sad. People are actually willing to forgive a genocidal murderer. People actually want to apply Shonen Logic to Real Life and forgive a Patricide.

You know,I actually didnt come here just to be a jerk and yell at Vegeta Fans. I seriously believed that THIS level of denial and Draco In Leather Pants was impossible.

I was wrong. Oh so VERY wrong.

The worst part is that before this thread, I didnt really mind Vegeta getting redeemed all that much. Its his sycophants (I wont use Apologist any more) who make me see red now.

[superfunk]

Patricide? who are we talking about? who killed their father? If you say they are applying shonen logic and morality to real life, then you are applying real logic and Morality to shonen- getting upset at people for forgiving a drawing on a page.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Christ Benoit. A guy tried to say "Yes, he could be forgiven". I used the wrong term. He killed his wife and his kid.

There. Are. No. Words.

You are right. I really should just leave and never come back to this thread. Vegeta isnt really at fault. He's a character in a Shonen Magazine, its not his fault that he has sycophants who try to trivialize his genocide. He actually did do his Suicide Assault his full knowledge that he was going to hell after being told by Piccolo. Even if it doesnt come close to redeeming him, he really aint that terrible a person.


His sycophants do scare me though. But again, not his fault.

[KentalSSJ6]

Really? Because I think its sad. REALLY sad. People are actually willing to forgive a genocidal murderer. People actually want to apply Shonen Logic to Real Life and forgive a Patricide.

You know,I actually didnt come here just to be a jerk and yell at Vegeta Fans. I seriously believed that THIS level of denial and Draco In Leather Pants was impossible.

I was wrong. Oh so VERY wrong.

The worst part is that before this thread, I didnt really mind Vegeta getting redeemed all that much. Its his sycophants (I wont use Apologist any more) who make me see red now.

If a animated fictional character being forgiven makes you see red, you may wanna find more to do with yourself.

[superfunk]

"its not his fault that he has sycophants who try to trivialize his genocide" I am sorry people are forgiving a drawing for committing a fictional genocide

[Cure Dragon 255]

Its not his being forgiven that bothers me. I'm honestly okay with that. I'm scared about the....



I cant say the A-word, because if I do no one will take me seriously. I know nobody in the thread does anymore, but I still wont use the A-word. Sure there are LITERALLY no words more precise to describe this, but I have my principles.


...sycophants. They literally look at a characters crimes and dismiss them with no care at all. They are just "A thing of the past".

I dont hate Toriyama, I dont hate Vegeta, I dont like his sycophants.

[superfunk]

That's like saying someone can't like a villain in a story, i liked that Vegeta killed so many people, he is a more entertaining character because of it. You can complain about writing and in universe gripes, but as an out of universe discussion i don't see how you can get upset. This is like the people i see laughing at Yamcha fans for liking a character that doesn't do much in z.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You can like a villain. You might even love him for all the evil he does because he is just THAT awesome at it. But you shouldnt convince yourself that he isnt evil or that he is actually in the right.

Its really worrying that people really didnt see anything wrong with calling him a good guy who doesnt deserve scorn. And there was the infamous "He can be redeeemed and so can Chris Benoit!". That's how deluded some people can be.


I know its stupid to be so riled up for a freaking fictional character, but the Chris Benoit thing showed me just how powerful denial can be.