#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

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rereboy
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by rereboy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:32 am

fexus wrote:
So, if I read the synopsis at the One Piece wikia, I'm eligible enough to criticize One Piece right? Thanks for that.
Reading One Piece wikia won't help you because you don't have the context of the series to criticize it agaisnt since you never actually got into the series. Therefore, the plot points you are reading have no frame of reference for you.

A fan of Dragon Ball who reads the synopsis for this new movie, because he has the context of the rest of the series and knows all about it, will be able to actually criticize those plot points against the rest of the series and have a logical and valid opinion on those plot points.

So, no.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by fexus » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:12 am

rereboy wrote:
fexus wrote:
So, if I read the synopsis at the One Piece wikia, I'm eligible enough to criticize One Piece right? Thanks for that.
Reading One Piece wikia won't help you because you don't have the context of the series to criticize it agaisnt since you never actually got into the series. Therefore, the plot points you are reading have no frame of reference for you.

A fan of Dragon Ball who reads the synopsis for this new movie, because he has the context of the rest of the series and knows all about it, will be able to actually criticize those plot points against the rest of the series and have a logical and valid opinion on those plot points.

So, no.
Nah, the OP wikia is quite extensive and detailed.

At the end of it all, it's all about "you can't but I can". I'm going to stop this because this is quite tiring.
Last edited by fexus on Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by rereboy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:45 am

fexus wrote:
Nah, the OP wikia is quite extensive and detailed.

At the end of it all, it's all about you can't but I can. I'm going to stop this because this is quite tiring.
I can't but you can? Really? Ok.

You see, I thought it was fairly obvious that the criticisms of a fan of a series regarding the plot points of a synopsis for a new episode/season/movie of that series, were very different from the criticisms of a person regarding the plot points of a synopsis from a series that he has never really watched or got into, and only knows superficially and from hearsay. But maybe I am wrong.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Deathbringer » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:13 am

I will say that I love the design of Beerus, he really has a lot of character and I was glad to see that Toriyama still has it in him to design great characters.

I like Dragon Ball all the way through, it gets very serious in the middle starting with Piccolo and ending with Cell and then it goes back to being silly but still with great action, and the Boo saga style of writing seems to be what Toriyama stuck with for BoG. It's hard for Toriyama to satisfy every fan because some people like serious dragon ball and others like funny dragon ball. Personally I like the mixture of both that we got with Boo Saga and BoG and think Toriyama should stick with that, when I saw BoG I didn't really notice many inconsistencies, apart from Vegeta managing to surpass SSJ3 but then again Toriyama introduced some #NewRules about how SSJ2 & 3 are basically a power overspill and blah blah blah explanations to fill in the gaps that I don't personally care about but I am aware that a significant portion of the fanbase care a lot about. (I mean seriously when Bulma and Mai said their ages did anyone actually pull out a calculator to work out if it matches up and then just go "NOPE FUCK THIS, FUCK TORIYAMA, HOW DARE HE FORGET SUCH AN IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF THE PLOT!!" ??)

Does anyone else agree that the Boo saga/BoG tone is the right one for future DBZ or should we just keep to the seriousness of Cell + Freeza? (I'm fine with either but I personally feel that combining epic action fighting scenes with some genuinely funny humour could lead to probably the best Dragon Ball film of all time if done right! :thumbup: )

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Rocketman » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:11 pm

Deathbringer wrote:when I saw BoG I didn't really notice many inconsistencies, apart from Vegeta managing to surpass SSJ3 but then again Toriyama introduced some #NewRules about blah blah blah
And Gohan, who 1. long since surpassed SS3 and 2. was unique in getting power from anger, gets.....

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Dyno » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:27 pm

While I half agree, it's not like Son Gohan ended the manga as the strongest character, during this gap of ten years and whatever that happened in it, he obviously would be surpassed by Kakarot and Vegeta.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:28 pm

Dyno wrote:While I half agree, it's not like Son Gohan ended the manga as the strongest character, during this gap of ten years and whatever that happened in it, he obviously would be surpassed by Kakarot and Vegeta.
Why "obviously?"
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:47 pm

Dyno wrote:While I half agree, it's not like Son Gohan ended the manga as the strongest character, during this gap of ten years and whatever that happened in it, he obviously would be surpassed by Kakarot and Vegeta.
I doubt Vegeta could catch up to him without God Ki with Goku maybe maxing out at 2/3rds of his power without God Ki as well. Gohan became leaps and bounds stronger than either of them when his potential was unlocked.
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by rereboy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:34 pm

Dyno wrote:While I half agree, it's not like Son Gohan ended the manga as the strongest character, during this gap of ten years and whatever that happened in it, he obviously would be surpassed by Kakarot and Vegeta.
I don't see what so obvious about it. Gohan was a lot stronger than Goku. Without a hint of Goku having new transformations or techniques and such, I don't see him closing the gap if Gohan didn't get weaker.

Not to mention that Gohan is supposed to be stronger than his own limits with his Mystic transformation, which can be interpreted as being stronger than he could ever be otherwise, and Gohan has always been portrayed as having more potential than Goku... So going by the manga alone I really don't see Goku surpassing Gohan if he didn't get weaker.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Dyno » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:47 pm

But that's the point, he did get weaker. As interpreted before in the gap of seven years Cell-Buu... Son Gohan could easily defeat Dabura (Cell = Dabura) if he had continued his training, but he didn't at all, while Kakarot and Vegeta did. If seven years did that to Son Gohan, ten years does a lot more. Well, even if you disagree, we now have the movies, which both of them put Kakarot and Vegeta way above him.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by rereboy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:58 pm

Dyno wrote:But that's the point, he did get weaker. As interpreted before in the gap of seven years Cell-Buu... Son Gohan could easily defeat Dabura (Cell = Dabura) if he had continued his training, but he didn't at all, while Kakarot and Vegeta did. If seven years did that to Son Gohan, ten years does a lot more. Well, even if you disagree, we now have the movies, which both of them put Kakarot and Vegeta way above him.
And why do you assume the same thing happened in those 10 years?

First, since his new power is magical, we don't even know if he can get weaker by not training. There's nothing in the manga suggesting either way.

And second, there's also nothing in the manga suggesting that he was complacent regarding training in those years. He might have been, but he might just as well have learned his lesson and not have been.

So, I again say that I don't see what's so obvious about going by the manga.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Dyno » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:06 pm

Because that's the logic inserted. If you don't train, you get weaker.

Indeed, but I'm not saying that magical power got weaker, I'm saying his own/inner/basic/base form power. Which would probably imply Son Gohan would need to activate his magical power to win a match against Kakarot, for example. Unless his own power affects the magical transformation, but as you said, nothing suggests this, only a theory.

Indeed, but Toriyama said in an interview, which is enough. In times of piece, Son Gohan does not train.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:10 pm

The Daizenshu basically tell us that Gohan didn't get weaker though. His skills got rusty, but his power remained the exact same. The problem was that back during the Cell Games, after he went Super Saiyan 2, he always had a rage boost. Everyone judges his super awesome power based off what it was with the boost, but now that he's older he has trouble tapping into the rage like he used to. Thus he's "weaker".
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Faustus » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:55 pm

Rocketman wrote:And Gohan, who 1. long since surpassed SS3 and 2. was unique in getting power from anger, gets.....
...Yamcha'd? Like nearly every other character not named Goku since the beginning of series, swiftly and unceremoniously cast, one after another, into the abyss of irrelevance (claiming Puar as its first victim) the moment they're found to have outlived their utility for the author? (I'm not saying this is a good thing, just that it's completely in-line with what how Dragon Ball works and has always worked.) At any rate, Gohan really got shafted way back in the latter half of the Boo arc. His treatment as only secondary here should be nothing surprising or unexpected.

I completely understand that if you happen to be a fan of Gohan's you're bound to be disappointed in the lackluster treatment he's getting here. But if you're looking at it critically and trying to be as impartial as possible in your evaluation, I feel it's hypocritical to make this sort of charge against the film and to not then turn around and lodge it against the series itself - as though it were something irredeemably bad about this movie in particular, rather than a fault of Toriyama's writing in general. Personally, I don't much give a crap about Gohan anyway, so I care about the fact that he's been one-upped here about as little as I did when, say, Tenshinhan was rendered useless in the Saiyan arc.

(Also, "unique in getting power from anger" like Goku was unique in being a Super Saiyan? As far as we knew, there was supposed to be only one of 'em every one-thousand years. Was that an inconsistency, too?)

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Rocketman » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:49 pm

Faustus wrote:I completely understand that if you happen to be a fan of Gohan's you're bound to be disappointed in the lackluster treatment he's getting here. But if you're looking at it critically and trying to be as impartial as possible in your evaluation, I feel it's hypocritical to make this sort of charge against the film and to not then turn around and lodge it against the series itself - as though it were something irredeemably bad about this movie in particular, rather than a fault of Toriyama's writing in general.
It's more that they took away everything unique about a character. When Tien was outclassed, Goku didn't steal his third eye and arm-growing techniques. When Piccolo fell behind nobody stole his regeneration or magic.

But they stripped everything from Gohan for basically no reason, even violating the manga in their rush to glorify Goku.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Faustus » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:15 am

Rocketman wrote:It's more that they took away everything unique about a character. When Tenshinhan was outclassed, Goku didn't steal his third eye and arm-growing techniques. When Piccolo fell behind nobody stole his regeneration or magic.

But they stripped everything from Gohan for basically no reason, even violating the manga in their rush to glorify Goku.
Oh, is this about Gohan losing his 'Ultimate' state, specifically? If so, I don't see why this is a problem, as he'd be just as useful (i.e. useless) with or without it at this point. Nor does Goku "steal" it anywhere. It isn't exactly some "special ability", either - it's just him having a super-strong base state. And if all that's unique about Gohan is just that - an insta!power-up he didn't do much to deserve in the first place - is it something really worth having him keep, especially if he's not even going to feature centrally anymore? Would it have changed anything important?

As for Tenshinhan, arm-growing and third eyes aside, Goku does steal his taiyoken the minute he needs it; in the same vein, Krillin falls behind and his kienzan gets passed around like bread (Vegeta, Freeza, #18, Goku). Goku may not get Tenshinhan's third eye or Krillin's lack of a nose, but he does more or less appropriate anything and everything that's going to be even remotely useful going forward - with the exception, of course, of anything related to some alien physiology he doesn't happen to share (so nobody's getting Dende's healing, Piccolo's magic or Kaio's antennae, for example). To revert to my original point, the relegating of characters to the background has always been in a certain sense "undignified" in Dragon Ball; this is nothing new. It's an issue worth addressing, but it's certainly not exclusive to these films.

As for violating the manga, I see your point, and that's a continuity error just like any other. But eh, Gohan was only shown in, like, one panel of the epilogue anyway - I can deal.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:31 am

In BoG, Vegeta got a rage boost that propelled him to SSJ3 levels while in his SSJ state, which is not only ridiculous in itself, but was clearly Gohan's thing. Gohan was the only character who could do that in the series. Now it's not unique to him.

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It's one thing to make him a shitty, generic sideline character, but another to be inconsistent and take away from him. It's the principle of the thing. The writers don't even have the decency to explain why he lost that power. At the start of the Buu saga, he became a pansy and I immediately disliked him, but at least he could still go SSJ2. Nowadays, he most probably can't even use that state either, going by his comment.
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:36 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:At the start of the Buu saga, he became a pansy and I immediately disliked him, but at least he could still go SSJ2. Nowadays, he most probably can't even use that state either, going by his comment.
Not sure how living your life makes someone a pansy. Especially when once he became an adult, he actually didn't hesitate to fight if he needed to. In fact he really wanted to have a shot at Dabura alone. Compare that to his last showing where he was a total pansy who refused to fight or help anyone while they were being slaughtered, and only seemed to want to fight when he had the advantage.
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Rocketman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:40 am

Faustus wrote:Oh, is this about Gohan losing his 'Ultimate' state, specifically?
Not exactly, more that it's so blatantly obvious it's all for the glory of Goku and not because it's a natural evolution of the story.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:46 am

dbzfan7 wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:At the start of the Buu saga, he became a pansy and I immediately disliked him, but at least he could still go SSJ2. Nowadays, he most probably can't even use that state either, going by his comment.
Not sure how living your life makes someone a pansy. Especially when once he became an adult, he actually didn't hesitate to fight if he needed to. In fact he really wanted to have a shot at Dabura alone. Compare that to his last showing where he was a total pansy who refused to fight or help anyone while they were being slaughtered, and only seemed to want to fight when he had the advantage.
I meant pansy as in weaker. Or soft, as Vegeta put it.

Obviously I didn't expect him to turn into a stoic badass that walks up to his enemies and says, "Don't you know? You're already dead." But the "lack of training" thing, along with his personality, irritated me enough to not like him at all after that point, even when he acquired the ultimate powers.
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