Will GT Really Become "Lost" This Time?

[Sinestro]

Doesn't Cooler's minor appearance in GT prove it takes place in an alternate timeline?

I assumed GT took place in an alternate timeline already.

[Dyno]

Dragon Ball can be like Godzilla where each shows and movies take place in their own continuity. For example:

Manga:

DB-
Jaco
Dragon Ball manga Vol 1. - Vol 42
2008 Jump Special
Battle of Gods
Revival of F
Super

Anime:

Bardock: Father of Goku
DB Anime
DBZ Anime
History of Trunks
DBGT
Hero's Legacy

Online:

DB-
Dragon Ball manga Vol 1. - Vol 42
Dragon Ball Online

Episode of Bardock, DB Movie 1-4, and DB Movie 1-13 are set in their own worlds as well.

Always good to note the Bardock vs Freeza scene from the TV Special belongs to the manga as well.

And Dragon Ball Online does not work along with Dragon Ball Minus, as Online states Kakarot got on Earth as a baby, not as a toddler. Though except for that, would place Online together with the main series, after all, it adds and expands so much to the Dragon Ball franchise in a way that only Movie 14 with its "12 Universes" could do, marvelous ideas are always welcome.

[Hellspawn28]

Doesn't Cooler's minor appearance in GT prove it takes place in an alternate timeline?

You could say that Movie 5 happen within in the GT timeline or Coola in GT is the not same character we know. Coola in GT would have not been a issue if Toei had a cameo of Bojack or Hirudegarn. Most feel like Movie 5 does not fit well compare to Movie 9 and Movie 13.

[The Doc]

Exactly. How do we know that all the crap going on in Hell didn't have an effect on his ability to use his Golden form?

Why would it affect his ability to use the Golden form?

I think the point being made is that there would have to be all sorts of wild explanations and crazy mental gymnastics just to reconcile all the inconsistencies between GT and the new films, which frankly comes across as a forced, convoluted way to tie two things together that are simply incompatible at face value. The thing is, we ARE putting GT under analysis and consideration in context of a unified timeline - the problem is that Toei's continuation simply doesn't mesh with Toriyama's continuation. That's all there is to it.

Also, I'm still not sure why even fans of GT would try so hard to force it into a continuity that would just make the entire side story look silly at its premise. To me, that just denotes a complete lack of respect for GT itself.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, because I don't think that at all. I don't think coming up with reasons why things are the way they are is as much of a convoluted task as you're making it out to be, two seconds of critical thinking isn't very challenging imo. I don't think any reason proposed so far of why GT can fit feels "forced" everything proposed so far has just had me saying "oh yeah, that could be it!" Maybe in tone things don't mesh, I can see that, but just logically, I think everything has a simple explanation so far.

I think the forced feeling just comes from the refusal to accept GT, because at the end of the day I feel like I can point out an equal amount, maybe even more, contradictions/half baked reasoning the original source material + new movies propose within itself. Explanations have never been 100% perfect from even prior to GT's existence, why should explanations be suddenly held on such a high pedestal right now?

[LuckyCat]

Okay, why are Mai, Shu, and Pilaf kids in BoG and RoF but elderly in DBGT? They've even had chances to wish themselves back to normal and decided it wasn't important (RoF).

[Marlowe89]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, because I don't think that at all. I don't think coming up with reasons why things are the way they are is as much of a convoluted task as you're making it out to be, two seconds of critical thinking isn't very challenging imo. I don't think any reason proposed so far of why GT can fit feels "forced" everything proposed so far has just had me saying "oh yeah, that could be it!" Maybe in tone things don't mesh, I can see that, but just logically, I think everything has a simple explanation so far.

I think the forced feeling just comes from the refusal to accept GT, because at the end of the day I feel like I can point out an equal amount, maybe even more, contradictions/half baked reasoning the original source material + new movies propose within itself. Explanations have never been 100% perfect from even prior to GT's existence, why should explanations be suddenly held on such a high pedestal right now?

It's an astoundingly convoluted task. You would have to explain why the Pilaf gang becomes elderly again, why Toriyama's rendition of Hell is different, why Freeza is a complete scrub in GT, why Freeza was in his mecha form in the afterlife in RoF despite this being totally inconsistent with DBZ fillers that are actually referenced by GT, why Goku's new Super Saiyan replacement form is never used, and several other minor details that come along with all of that. Perhaps taken individually, one or two of these explanations can be fairly simple (e.g. Pilaf and co. restore their ages with the Dragon Balls) but taken as a whole there are simply too many inconsistencies to work around, even to the point that a few of them are outright contradictory. So when I say that Toei's continuation of DBZ doesn't mesh with Toriyama's continuation of his manga, I'm definitely not referring to some minor tonal gap. It's incredibly obvious that little to no consideration of GT was taken for these new films at all, otherwise there wouldn't be such an extremely obvious discrepancy here to begin with. The logical leaps required to make some of these work range from enormous to downright nonsensical, and I don't think there's any tip-toeing around that fact.

I also think it's unfair of you to attribute this conclusion to a "refusal to accept GT", as if anyone who disagrees with you isn't being objective in the matter. I certainly don't have a major issue with accepting GT as a whole, despite thinking that it has its fair share of narrative problems. It simply doesn't fit, and I think that forcing it to fit at all would make GT even worse than it already is by virtue of twisting specific background details to hilariously illogical proportions.

[Rocketman]

Dragon Ball can be like Godzilla where each shows and movies take place in their own continuity. For example:

I believe you mean:

Manga:

Dragon Ball manga Vol 1. - Vol 42

Anime:

Bardock: Father of Goku
DB Anime
DBZ Anime
History of Trunks
2008 Special
DBGT
Hero's Legacy

Poop smeared on the manga:

DB-
bog
faff
Super*


*Provisional

[Lord Beerus]

Poop smeared on the manga:

DB-
bog
faff
Super*


*Provisional

Nice to know you're so impartial.

[Rocketman]

If it wasn't poop, I would not say that it is. I am the light in the darkness, I am truth.

[The Doc]

It's an astoundingly convoluted task.

Nah, you're fluffling up the level of thought you need to put in a lot. I could immediately think of a reason or two why things are the way they are for every little thing you listed off in no time, and that goes for almost every convo I've ever had about "the inconsistencies of GT." Although if thinking about this really ties your brain into knots that much, I guess I can see why it's easier to just write the whole thing off rather than giving yourself a migraine.

The logical leaps required to make some of these work range from enormous to downright nonsensical, and I don't think there's any tip-toeing around that fact.

Yeah, I won't tip toe around it. I'll just say it straight up, I don't think any the reasoning that can be deduced is enormously illogical, and especially isn't nonsensical, especially compared to the standard of logic that the story sets up for itself in the original series + the new movies. I'll respect almost any opinion, but I wouldn't call this statement a fact.

I also think it's unfair of you to attribute this conclusion to a "refusal to accept GT", as if anyone who disagrees with you isn't being objective in the matter. I certainly don't have a major issue with accepting GT as a whole, despite thinking that it has its fair share of narrative problems. It simply doesn't fit, and I think that forcing it to fit at all would make GT even worse than it already is by virtue of twisting specific background details to hilariously illogical proportions.

I think it's possible to be objective in the manner and for you to have your general opinion, without refusal. What I was more so getting at with that point is I feel like the line of thinking of "this is too much work to figure out, therefore I'll just reject it" is where that might have came from.

I'm still unsure why you're holding your nose so high above the logic you would need to use to make GT work when so much logic used in the source material can be considered "hilariously illogical" in itself.

[dbzfan7]

I'm still unsure why you're holding your nose so high above the logic you would need to use to make GT work when so much logic used in the source material can be considered "hilariously illogical" in itself.

Because when people don't like something, they don't care much to rationalize or accept issues. So with GT people are more bothered by issues as they weren't entertained. In contrast the new movies are more liked, so more people are willing to rationalize problems to something they generally like or the concept of they've not seen it. Suspension of disbelief.

[Marlowe89]

Nah, you're fluffling up the level of thought you need to put in a lot. I could immediately think of a reason or two why things are the way they are for every little thing you listed off in no time, and that goes for almost every convo I've ever had about "the inconsistencies of GT." Although if thinking about this really ties your brain into knots that much, I guess I can see why it's easier to just write the whole thing off rather than giving yourself a migraine.

You completely missed my point - the issue isn't that one couldn't possibly think of "reasons" that could reconcile the two, but that some of these reasons would not be satisfactory or even sensical in some cases, and also that when taken as a collective, these inconsistencies are too significant in quantity to just wave off as minor issues. If you can come up with perfectly reasonable, non-convoluted explanations for every problem I've just listed, feel free to do so (the funny part is that I didn't even list all of them). Until then, I'm hardly convinced that you're looking at this as objectively as you claim.

Yeah, I won't tip toe around it. I'll just say it straight up, I don't think any the reasoning that can be deduced is enormously illogical, and especially isn't nonsensical, especially compared to the standard of logic that the story sets up for itself in the original series + the new movies. I'll respect almost any opinion, but I wouldn't call this statement a fact.

As I've said above, feel free to post your own reasoning. In any case, it's interesting that you compare this to the original series plus the new films. What standard of logic are you referring to that would make those incompatible in the same vein as the discrepancies I've provided? Not every explanation has been 100% perfect, no, but for the most part the series has never contained as many inconsistencies that were quite so apparent either when compared to Toriyama's films. This is an isolated case in which the discrepancies between GT and the new movies in general are numerous, implausible to fix and stick out like a sore thumb - no one's "holding their nose" above the logic that would make this work; it just straight up doesn't work, unless you think that laughably convoluted explanations don't somehow presuppose the fact that you're forcing a jigsaw piece where it clearly doesn't belong.

I think it's possible to be objective in the manner and for you to have your general opinion, without refusal. What I was more so getting at with that point is I feel like the line of thinking of "this is too much work to figure out, therefore I'll just reject it" is where that might have came from.

My general opinion of GT is that it's a flawed but ultimately acceptable series. I've had zero qualms about accepting it as a vital part of one cohesive continuity, but I no longer find that to be a very feasible possibility when looking at some of the enormously apparent discrepancies between GT and BoG/RoF at face value. The problem isn't that it's too much work, the problem is that it doesn't work at all. A couple of these inconsistencies are flat-out impossible to reconcile in any rationally consistent manner, so you being insistent on the notion that there's some underlying "refusal" to accept GT is both incredibly assumptive and incredibly baseless to say the least.

[Mystic Tien]

King Vegeta with red hair appeared in BoG, yet no one for some reasons mentions it.

Oh. And Tarble's OVA has Gregory, who is a filler character as well. It is not part of manga continuity, it is just a Toei's OVA, based on Naho Ooishi's story.

King Vegeta exist in the manga, Freeza references him. Toriyama also design him, so having him show up in BOG with his anime filler apparance made sense. Gregory was not in the manga version of Son Goku and His Friends Returns and Toriyama likes the manga version better over the 2008 anime version.

King Vegeta exists in the manga the same was as the guy who sealed Old Kaioshin, and father of Bardock exists there. Yet filler King Vegeta doesn't exist in manga, who designed him doesn't matter, as Toriyama designed Broly and Bardock, yet Toei's Bardock is and always will be the filler character, the same way as Broly.

Everyone's thinking on this will be different, as it has not been fleshed out at all yet. We've heard that Toriyama was extremely particular about the dialog in both Battle of Gods and Revival of Freeza. I believe that his bit about Beerus mentioning the twelve universes was a brilliant master stroke of a concept. If it was intentional in this manner or not has yet to be seen, but he gave us an ambiguous explanation that could be interpreted any way that we, as fans, prefer to do so. That, an official, "in universe" line from a "canon" piece of material, coupled with his public statement saying that Dragonball GT was a grand side story, accomplished something great for the fandom. In these two acts, he validated the previous Z movies and the GT series to fans of both, yet at the same time, "cleared the road ahead", so to speak, for his official continuity of new films and the Dragonball Super series to co-exist without creating further plot holes and contradictions.

From a marketing standpoint, it doesn't discard anything that can and will be re-released in the future for continued profits. From a fanbase perspective, it doesn't alienate anyone, or splinter the greater worldwide fandom any further than it was previously. From a Toriyama point of view, it encompasses everything established thus far by him, or by Toei, into a greater overall existence with multiple parallel universes. Thus allowing him a clear a path to blaze ahead with his own story-telling without totally trashing what was previously established, nor having to be bound to it. Perhaps the creator is not as forgetful or ambivalent as he's often made out to be?

I am sure that Toriyama doesn't care about the things you mentioned, and that he just makes up whatever he wants and just does what he wants and when he wants.

I still say that Toei using GT as a frame of reference in the Battle of Gods press release for when that movie takes place is still a fair enough indicator that they see these new movies and GT as taking place along the same timeline. I can't see them using Super as a way to over write GT, unless it's specifically said that Super will take place at the same time GT does, or unless they include something crucially contradicting to GT other than new transformations.

That was one press release from fairly early in the movie's production though. They haven't mentioned it afterwards, and we got word from the staff about how GT wasn't part of the "original story". Then, with RoF, now we've got Goku and Vegeta ending up with blue hair as SSJs rather than yellow hair, which is a pretty big change since the original SSJ obviously was used in GT.

Using GT as a frame of reference would mean they'd need to worry and care about continuity to the point of restricting what the new show could do, and I just don't see them doing that. GT wasn't a big success for them, after all, so tying themselves to it wouldn't really benefit them.

So staff of Toei now decided what is a part of manga, and what is not? Sounds legit. In press release it was said that BoG takes place between Z and GT, which means that it does.

I still say that Toei using GT as a frame of reference in the Battle of Gods press release for when that movie takes place is still a fair enough indicator that they see these new movies and GT as taking place along the same timeline. I can't see them using Super as a way to over write GT, unless it's specifically said that Super will take place at the same time GT does, or unless they include something crucially contradicting to GT other than new transformations.

But these new transformations are not an insignificant thing. It changes how the characters look permanently and simply mae GT incompatible. And Toei allowed that.

Toei also allowed Gohan fighting with Beerus in SSJ, and later they just recolored it. Toei also allowed Toriyama draw Android 18 with purple hair. Toei allows a lot to Toriyama.

Other haircolour could simply be explained by going full power or not.

But a movie or TV episode that contains this explanation has to be produced. So until then GT, at this point, is just incompatible. For that and many other reasons. The fact that Toei allows that to happen tells me that they're not very concerned about keeping GT in super main official production canon. Frankly, selling a new "even more canon this time!" sequel is a great marketing idea, just look at Star Wars Episode 7.

By this logic manga post Red Ribbon Army arc doesn't exist, as Goku made a wish before a year passed, that means that everything starting with it is incompatible with previous chapters. It doesn't work like it. Not to mention, Trunks speaking about Androids 19 and 20, when he never even met them in his timeline.

I'm open to "whatever future holds" one way or another, but I disagree with the notion some believe that Toei would never do anything to directly "throw GT into bin" and their lack of care for stuff that is already happening in new material that is messing up with GT shows it

Kai directly throws DBZ into bin, by cutting fillers and with this lacking care for stuff which happened in DBZ. You see? This logic doesn't make sense. They may do whatever the hell amount of remakes, alternate continuations, midquels, etc, it won't change anything.

It's an astoundingly convoluted task. why Toriyama's rendition of Hell is different, why Freeza was in his mecha form in the afterlife in RoF despite this being totally inconsistent with DBZ fillers

Okay, explain it to me. Why Toriyama's rendition of Hell is different from the one in DBZ? Why Freeza was in his mecha form in RoF, while he wasn't in DBZ? By the logic which you guys use, RoF contradicts DBZ, hence why it simply doesn't exist.

[Marlowe89]

Okay, explain it to me. Why Toriyama's rendition of Hell is different from the one in DBZ? Why Freeza was in his mecha form in RoF, while he wasn't in DBZ? By the logic which you guys use, RoF contradicts DBZ, hence why it simply doesn't exist.

There's nothing to explain because you're absolutely right. Toei's rendition of DBZ simply isn't the same as Toriyama's manga. Being official material, both are equally as valid - they're simply different mediums of the Dragon Ball mythos. GT follows the events established by Toei, whereas Toriyama's movies follow his serialization and mostly borrow from his familiarity with his own work (not whatever he knows about GT, which is probably very little at this point). This is how multiple continuities within a single franchise typically function.

To get on topic though, the question of whether GT becomes "lost" or not depends entirely on whether Toei wants to continue acknowledging it.

[Faustus]

Poop smeared on the manga

So is this Toriyama's master poop joke or what?

[sintzu]

The teaser trailer that was just released should answer you're question :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIzIbJvkBVU

[Lord Beerus]

The teaser trailer that was just released should answer you're question :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIzIbJvkBVU

Why would you post that?

For the record folks, it's fake.

[Mystic Tien]

The teaser trailer that was just released should answer you're question :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIzIbJvkBVU

The footage is from the very beginning of Xenoverse. I remember seeing it there.

[Noah]

Dragon Ball can be like Godzilla where each shows and movies take place in their own continuity. For example:

I believe you mean:

Manga:

Dragon Ball manga Vol 1. - Vol 42

I agree with that... The manga is the manga, there's no statment that Minus, Jump Special, BoG and RoF were part of the manga, because the manga ends in vol. 42, period.

[Dyno]

Actually, there are indeed some statements. I listed every single one here.

Jaco was said to "tie-in" with Dragon Ball manga, so yes... All that happened in Jaco, the Galactic Patrolman manga is "canon" to the main continuity, along with that, you could say Dragon Ball Minus is as well.