Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
h0kuten wrote:This isn't the case, and is impossible.
So you're saying (disregarding stuff like fusion, mystic, etc.) nobody's base can ever surpass any kind of SSJ levels?
Because if so (and sorry if that's not what you meant and I misunderstood), then Base Future Gohan sparring with SSJ Future Trunks, and Gohan having the upper hand, disagrees.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
Fusion has to be a set multiplier for Goku to predict it's outcome, therefore the boys would be required to surpass their previous Ssj in Base form if Gotenks did.
P.S. That movie isn't canon and cannot be used in cannon debates.
Captain Space wrote:That scene didn't actually happen in the movie, since in the movie (well, TV special technically) Trunks isn't SSJ until future Gohan dies.
The scene I'm talking about is from the manga, so yeah, canon.
Just because it has a manga adaption doesn't make it cannon.
h0kuten wrote:Unless it's stated to happen, it didn't.
Piccolo and Trunks both state Gotenks can match Evil Boo in base, despite thinking pre-RoSaT SS Gotenks would lose to Evil Boo.
h0kuten wrote:Fusion has to be a set multiplier for Goku to predict it's outcome, therefore the boys would be required to surpass their previous Ssj in Base form if Gotenks did.
No, Goku only has to know because of plot. Character statements are the author's way or relaying vital plot information, regardless of how they came to the conclusion.
I agree with the notion of fusion being linear to an extent, that's why I shared my personal fan theory. It's admittedly uncorroborated, it's just my way of trying to work with what's shown in a logical way.
h0kuten wrote:Just because it has a manga adaption doesn't make it canon.
Captain Space wrote:That scene didn't actually happen in the movie, since in the movie (well, TV special technically) Trunks isn't SSJ until future Gohan dies.
The scene I'm talking about is from the manga, so yeah, canon.
Just because it has a manga adaption doesn't make it cannon.
As the people above me have said, not an adaptation. An actual chapter of the original manga. Volume 35.
EDIT: I mean volume 33, whoops.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
h0kuten wrote:Unless it's stated to happen, it didn't.
Piccolo and Trunks both state Gotenks can match Evil Boo in base, despite thinking pre-RoSaT SS Gotenks would lose to Evil Boo.
h0kuten wrote:Fusion has to be a set multiplier for Goku to predict it's outcome, therefore the boys would be required to surpass their previous Ssj in Base form if Gotenks did.
No, Goku only has to know because of plot. Character statements are the author's way or relaying vital plot information, regardless of how they came to the conclusion. That is a really lame excuse.
I agree with the notion of fusion being linear to an extent, that's why I shared my personal fan theory. It's admittedly uncorroborated, it's just my way of trying to work with what's shown in a logical way.
h0kuten wrote:Just because it has a manga adaption doesn't make it canon.
So Goku only has to know so you can power up Gotenks? No, it doesn't make sense and completely goes against any form of common sense. Let's agree to disagree here, I will never agree with you on this one.
It's in the original manga.
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It's no an excuse. Toriyama's not going to leave a character's statement uncontradicted if he wants the reader to believe the opposite. That's asinine.
"Common sense" isn't having characters misinform their readers.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:It's no an excuse. Toriyama's not going to leave a character's statement uncontradicted if he wants the reader to believe the opposite. That's asinine.
"Common sense" isn't having characters misinform their readers.
This (uncontradicted character statement) is what always bugged me about the "There's no proof Cell can solar system bust!" argument...
...not that I want to bring that debate up here. I have no intention of doing so. Your post about that kind of reasoning just resonated with me in regards to that kind of thing.
(Of course, some people disagree with me and believe certain events are as good as a contradiction etc. etc., once again, not trying to start that debate up.)
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
It'd also make the story incoherent if Fusion was so unreliable.
Goku teaches the ultimate technique, Fusion, to the super-gifted Goten and Trunks. He believes their combined powers will indubitably be enough to defeat Majin Boo. He is so confident in their Fusion he prohibits them from training in the Room of Spirit and Time in case another more outrageous foe appears in the future. Later he reveals he could have defeated Majin Boo all along, but he wanted to ensure the Earth's long-term safety.
Vs.
Goku teaches the questionably "ultimate" technique, Fusion, to the super-gifted Goten and Trunks. He tells everyone their combined powers will indubitably be enough to defeat Majin Boo, though in reality he has no reliable way to gauge Fusion power. He is so inappropriately confident in their Fusion he prohibits them from training in the Room of Spirit and Time based on the scenario that a more outrageous foe might appear in the future, ignoring the one they are currently up against. Later he reveals he could have defeated Majin Boo all along and so really had no reason to risk the destruction of Earth on such a precarious plan.
In the first Goku's plan failed because of an unknowable quantity: Super Boo. In the second, it was always bound to fail because of downright bad decisions.
Last edited by Bando on Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's the thing, though. It's plot knowledge. Goku can accurately gauge how strong a fusion of Goten and Trunks can be without it being linear. So long as the author makes it that way.
I'm not saying Goku was guessing, just that how he was actually able to make the call doesn't have to rely on any logic besides plot.
Goku wanted the younger generation to save the day. He wrongly put's his faith in Gohan & the kids, whom fail miserably, and at the end of the day, he has to save the world yet again.
That's how I view his choices during the Majin Boo Saga.
This was originally a topic about narrative roles, and certain characters being unfairly and illogically downplayed in favor of another. But it's devolved into another Goku/Gotenks/Gohan strength fustercluck. Go figure.
The original point being that in the manga, Gotenks and Gohan were both portrayed as special and extraordinarily powerful, more so than Goku. Yet in recent animated material that's been all but forgotten in order to make Goku look better at any cost. To an extent, Goku will always have most of the spotlight anyway, because he's the main character. But it's a shame to see other characters actually get unduly downgraded and have abilities ignored or taken away in order to glorify him.
Kaboom wrote:This was originally a topic about narrative roles, and certain characters being unfairly and illogically downplayed in favor of another. But it's devolved into another Goku/Gotenks/Gohan strength fustercluck. Go figure.
The original point being that in the manga, Gotenks and Gohan were both portrayed as special and extraordinarily powerful, more so than Goku. Yet in recent animated material that's been all but forgotten in order to make Goku look better at any cost. To an extent, Goku will always have most of the spotlight anyway, because he's the main character. But it's a shame to see other characters actually get unduly downgraded and have abilities ignored or taken away in order to glorify him.
The reason for the shift being that, as you said, part of the "downplaying" thing has been to make them look weaker than they did previously. Or so say some (me included). But then when that's brought up, the counterpoint "Goku was stronger already!" is brought up. "No he wasn't, for this reason!" is the response. And so on.
A major pillar of the downplaying thing is tied into whether or not they've actually been made weaker or not, and since people can't agree on this point--and furthermore that power levels are the natural habitat of DBZ fan-debates--the debate never moves on from this one point.
(Not that I'm above or removed from all of this. I was involved in said argument for said reasons like everyone else.)
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
h0kuten wrote:This isn't the case, and is impossible.
So you're saying (disregarding stuff like fusion, mystic, etc.) nobody's base can ever surpass any kind of SSJ levels?
Because if so (and sorry if that's not what you meant and I misunderstood), then Base Future Gohan sparring with SSJ Future Trunks, and Gohan having the upper hand, disagrees.
Future Trunks was not very strong prior to the ROSAT, the Gohan of the present stated Future Trunks power as SSJ was about the same as Goku's was on Namek and that's after a few more years of training from the point in which he sparred with Future Gohan.
Trunks was a very weak SSJ at the beginning of his special chapter.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter
theherodjl wrote:
Future Trunks was not very strong prior to the ROSAT, the Gohan of the present stated Future Trunks power as SSJ was about the same as Goku's was on Namek and that's after a few more years of training from the point in which he sparred with Future Gohan.
Trunks was a very weak SSJ at the beginning of his special chapter.
Indeed he was, and he's an example of how a saiyan's base power can exceed their previous SSJ power (since he later became more powerful than Future Gohan).
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
h0kuten wrote:This isn't the case, and is impossible.
So you're saying (disregarding stuff like fusion, mystic, etc.) nobody's base can ever surpass any kind of SSJ levels?
Because if so (and sorry if that's not what you meant and I misunderstood), then Base Future Gohan sparring with SSJ Future Trunks, and Gohan having the upper hand, disagrees.
Future Trunks was not very strong prior to the ROSAT, the Gohan of the present stated Future Trunks power as SSJ was about the same as Goku's was on Namek and that's after a few more years of training from the point in which he sparred with Future Gohan.
Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).
I take it he meant the same kind of Ki, not the same amount of power. Super Saiyans hace a distinct Ki to them.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Hoping this won't get swallowed up in the strength debate... *fingers crossed*
If I wholeheartedly echo Rocketman's sentiment that the way BoG and Super are doing it is remarkably "lazy", even outright "deceptive", I don't think the effect is particularly to glorify Goku - especially not when all the modern plots at a glance are all about how truly shitty everyone is, Goku included, in the grand scheme of things (Beerus and Whis, both of whom are confirmed regular cast members now, and presumably Champa + 12 universes). Goku just needs to be the strongest of the old cast from the get-go so he can be the main character and confront the new threat, that's all.
Is it poor writing? Why certainly. A travesty of anything and everything Dragon Ball? C'mon! It's disappointing that they're choosing to go about it so underhandedly, but it's a writing flaw like any other, and characters not-Goku have been getting jettisoned left and right in favor of new cast since the beginning of the manga.
Why is Dragonball Super's writing poor? I've definitely a few steps up in quality in comparison to the old Anime counter-part. It's a slow moving show with what the gang has been up to and is actually following the events of Battle of Gods. Such as Bulma's party, Goku's training on King Kai's world, the legend of the oracle fish regarding the SSJG, Beerus travelling to King Kai's planet in search for Goku, ect.
Also I feel Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks had their time to shine in the Majin BuU Saga, as most characters do, but that's all it was. Vegeta had no time whatsoever in the spotlight and only proved to be useful during the opening portion of the Majin Buu Saga. He deserves whatever credit they have and will be giving him. Knowing Goku is his rival only means Goku is coming along for the ride.
It's disappointing that they're choosing to go about it so underhandedly, but it's a writing flaw like any other, and characters not-Goku have been getting jettisoned left and right in favor of new cast since the beginning of the manga.
