Iconic scenes ruined by the dub?

[fadeddreams5]

But it's not really all that tragic, Vegeta wasn't held hostage and he doesn't seem all that bummed that his race was destroyed until he's about to die. He does little to show that he cares, he lets Raditz stay dead and he kills Nappa when he deems him useless. Vegeta isn't turned into a killer, he is a killer by choice. Vegeta wouldn't have tried to get revenge if he could've, he was after power. People aren't driven by their past, they are driven by their ideas. Their ideas determine their actions. It's way more true to life that some people simply want power for its own sake, not because they have some tragedy in their past, that doesn't make them any less 3 Dimensional.

It sort of is tragic. The heir to the throne loses his entire race to a monster he ends up serving for the majority of his life. Just because he doesn't show that he cares does not mean that he, in fact, does not. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been so important for him that Frieza dies at the hand of a saiyan. He didn't revive Raditz because Raditz was so weak, he lost to Earthlings. And he killed Nappa because he was useless in his crippled state. At that point in his life, Vegeta valued power above anything else; he clinged onto nothing and unattached himself from anything that got in his way. Ideas develop based on upbringing and life experiences, which includes the past. Vegeta's servitude lasted a huge bulk of his life, and I like the idea that his obsession stemmed from the legends he heard as a kid and his desire to overthrow Frieza, and later increased when he lost to a low class saiyan, despite his sense of entitlement, experience, and growth.

But he fights for personal reasons, not to be the savior of the world, and it's completely different from American comics that have infinite middles where the writing changes hands. There's one writer who wrote the entire story and has one characterization. I don't want Goku to be selfless (not the same thing as heroic), I want Goku to be a man who loves life, loves fighting, and will fight like hell to defend his values.

But I'm referring to the depiction of Goku NOT written by that one man. The Goku I'm talking about already exists!

Goku isn't the guy looking to fight bad guys to defend others. If his goals happen to align with that, then yes, he's also willing to help out, but it's not what drives him. It's far more interesting and I think ultimately more heroic if Goku fights Tao Pai Pai because he's defending a new friend than if he heard about the situation on the radio or something and decided to do something about it.

I don't see how it makes him better if he's going out fighting for strangers instead of his family and friends.

First of all, that's not what I mean. I'm not saying he needs be a super hero like great saiyaman. Secondly, I'm not arguing what makes him better or not.

In fact, the Upa thing is exactly what I mean. That boy was a stranger. Goku still helped him. Goku meets people, and he helps them if they need it. Goku helped that turtle, even when his only actual friend didn't want him to. Goku is a selfless person, and if he protects his planet in the name of the innocent people he does not know, along with his friends and family, it's because he's gotten to know enough of them in his adventures to develop a connection. Again, the Goku I'm referring to already exists. People just hate when he's made to give heroic speeches, or when he prioritizes protecting others over his battle obsession.

[TheGmGoken]

Opinions on the dub (German) using porn music for Gohan going SSJ2 against Cell?

[ABED]

It sort of is tragic. The heir to the throne loses his entire race to a monster he ends up serving for the majority of his life. Just because he doesn't show that he cares does not mean that he, in fact, does not. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been so important for him that Freeza dies at the hand of a saiyan. He didn't revive Raditz because Raditz was so weak, he lost to Earthlings. And he killed Nappa because he was useless in his crippled state. At that point in his life, Vegeta valued power above anything else; he clinged onto nothing and unattached himself from anything that got in his way. Vegeta's servitude lasted a huge bulk of his life, and I like the idea that his obsession stemmed from the legends he heard as a kid and his desire to overthrow Freeza, and later increased when he lost to a low class saiyan, despite his sense of entitlement, experience, and growth.

To me, that's not all that tragic as Vegeta isn't innocent. Vegeta has always valued power, and as you say he clinged to nothing. Even his "Freeza must die by a Saiyan hand" is less "I love my people" than something very self serving. Vegeta hated servitude, not because he valued liberty, but because he didn't like being told what to do. Freeza didn't turn him into the man he is.

Ideas develop based on upbringing and life experiences, which includes the past.

You have it in reverse. How we react is determined by our ideas, not upbringing. Not all people will react the same in the same situations even if they have the same upbringing.

Making changes to Vegeta's speeches made them worse

[EXBadguy]

Kikuchi- too generic(playing the same F note constantly) and monotonous for its own good, though it does get its dynamics right occasionally.

I'm not a musician, but it stands out. I don't know what note he's playing, I just know it doesn't all sound the same.

Yeah, I'm a pianist and a guitarist(both acoustic and electric), so I apologize for the confusion. And as for his songs, I'd say at least 85% of them sound the same, there are a few songs where he used different notes.

[ABED]

Define "the same". They all don't bleed together. Sure he has a style, but regardless of the note, he's clearly not playing the same thing over and over. Some songs are sad, some are happy, some are ominous, etc. Upa's theme sounds nothing like Piccolo's theme or the song that plays when Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan. While you are a musician, I think you're speaking in hyperbole.

[EXBadguy]

Define "the same". They all don't bleed together. Sure he has a style, but regardless of the note, he's clearly not playing the same thing over and over. Some songs are sad, some are happy, some are ominous, etc. Upa's theme sounds nothing like Piccolo's theme or the song that plays when Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan. While you are a musician, I think you're speaking in hyperbole.

Just too much of the same note, too many tambourines, a bit too silent, occasionally too slow, and too polka-ish for my liking. I know there are some medium tempo ones, but that won't negate my statement. And I'm only talking about most of his Z music. He should've took notes from the one who did the OST for Yu Yu Hakusho or just replace him with somebody else that would make the tracks sound more modernized for its time instead of sounding like a 60s flick.

[ABED]

Define "the same". They all don't bleed together. Sure he has a style, but regardless of the note, he's clearly not playing the same thing over and over. Some songs are sad, some are happy, some are ominous, etc. Upa's theme sounds nothing like Piccolo's theme or the song that plays when Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan. While you are a musician, I think you're speaking in hyperbole.

<br abp="689"><br abp="690">Just too much of the same note, too many tambourines, a bit too silent, occasionally too slow, and too polka-ish for my liking. I know there are some medium tempo ones, but that won't negate my statement. And I'm only talking about most of his Z music. He should've took notes from the one who did the OST for Yu Yu Hakusho or just replace him with somebody else that would make the tracks sound more modernized for its time instead of sounding like a 60s flick.

The point was to sound like a throwback to old kung fu flicks. It's not the same note, and they are a diverse collection of songs. Modern isn't inherently better. The Beatles and the Rolling Stones decimate nearly any band that came after. You dont' have to be a musician to hear that they don't sound alike.

Goku turning SS1 sounds polka-ish?

I love YYH, but that show is just as guilty of having the same songs over and over as Z.

[EXBadguy]

The point was to sound like a throwback to old kung fu flicks. It's not the same note, and they are a diverse collection of songs. Modern isn't inherently better. The Beatles and the Rolling Stones decimate nearly any band that came after. You dont' have to be a musician to hear that they don't sound alike.

Again, for Z it's just sounds too 60-ish for a 90s anime, no matter how evolved the tone goes. I just don't think it's as good as people here say it is. You can say YYH's OST plays the same constantly and I agree with you on that, but it does have more variety in everything than most of Kikuchi's Z work. Tataki or Yammamoto(Don't care what anyone says about him) would've done a better job.

Goku turning SS1 sounds polka-ish?

I never said all.

So my recommendation is to watch the original if you haven't already. I'm not saying you'll change your mind with 100% certainty, but you may appreciate the score a lot more.

Which I did a few times and I appreciated his score more at some level. I do not hate Kikuchi's score. Like I said to the other guy, I just don't see it as good as people here say it is. It's too dull at times.

[Doctor.]

As someone who never cared for DB as a kid and grew to love the franchise through the FUNimation dub recommended to me by a friend, I hated the Kikuchi score a few years back. I used to say it was terrible in forums I participated in based on a few clips I saw online and that the Faulconer soundtrack was amazing and much better. But my opinion completely changed when I sat down one week and watched the show in japanese in full. I was only basing my opinion of the Faulconer score on the big scenes (in which Kikuchi's score was better) and missing the big picture. See the effect that Kikuchi's talent had on someone completely biased towards Faulconer.

So my recommendation is to watch the original if you haven't already. I'm not saying you'll change your mind with 100% certainty, but you may appreciate the score a lot more.

[fadeddreams5]

Opinions on the dub (German) using porn music for Gohan going SSJ2 against Cell?

Gohan was feeling more emotions in that scene than we were led to believe.

To me, that's not all that tragic as Vegeta isn't innocent. Vegeta has always valued power, and as you say he clinged to nothing. Even his "Freeza must die by a Saiyan hand" is less "I love my people" than something very self serving. Vegeta hated servitude, not because he valued liberty, but because he didn't like being told what to do. Freeza didn't turn him into the man he is.

You have it in reverse. How we react is determined by our ideas, not upbringing. Not all people will react the same in the same situations even if they have the same upbringing.

Making changes to Vegeta's speeches made them worse

I'm just saying, I'd personally prefer it if it was his connection with Frieza, combined with his status of prince, that drove him to seek power--both that entitlement and lack of freedom. I like to think he did care about his planet and race, but bottled that up when he slowly came to realize, thanks to Frieza, how important it is to possess greater strength in the world, resulting in the ruthless murderer (even by saiyan standards) he became. That legend of the SSJ, and his belief that, as royalty, he would ascend to that state gave him a sense of hope. Imagine how it feels to be forced to do the bidding of someone who killed your whole race, humiliates you, and holds you as some sort of trophy, day in and day out. Your only hope to escape is to achieve what may likely be a myth. That is your drive. But then, not only are you beaten by someone lower in status than you--an individual who did not have the same birth right as you--but also witness him achieving your dream. Something that belonged to you. To add insult to injury, he saves you. It's devastating. None of this is to say Vegeta was misunderstood. No. He developed into an evil, borderline psychopath; if Frieza was killed, he'd take his place in a heartbeat. His views were skewed, and literally all that mattered to him was power, but it could be because of how he grew up.

How we react is determined by our ideas, but those ideas develop based on our life experiences and upbringing. Two people can have the same upbringing and completely different perspectives on life. However, their views, philosophies, ideals, and so on ultimately derive from those experiences (past, present, future) in the first place, no matter how similar they are.

Case in point, the dub line can make sense, and I prefer it.

[MajinMan]

As someone who never cared for DB as a kid and grew to love the franchise through the FUNimation dub recommended to me by a friend, I hated the Kikuchi score a few years back. I used to say it was terrible in forums I participated in based on a few clips I saw online and that the Faulconer soundtrack was amazing and much better. But my opinion completely changed when I sat down one week and watched the show in japanese in full. I was only basing my opinion of the Faulconer score on the big scenes (in which Kikuchi's score was better) and missing the big picture. See the effect that Kikuchi's talent had on someone completely biased towards Faulconer.

So my recommendation is to watch the original if you haven't already. I'm not saying you'll change your mind with 100% certainty, but you may appreciate the score a lot more.

Bingo. That's exactly what I said. You can't truly appreciate the score unless you watch the show in Japanese. Whenever I see the dub with Kikuchi, they always talk in the silent moments or grunt randomly, so it's not really the same.

[ABED]

I'm just saying, I'd personally prefer it if it was his connection with Freeza, combined with his status of prince, that drove him to seek power--both that entitlement and lack of freedom.

But what lack of freedom? He did what he wanted, pretty much. He got to satiate his bloodlust by conquering other planets. His only other goal was to take Freeza's spot. Vegeta's raison d'etre is power, and in a world where individuals can destroy entire solar systems, one could make a good argument that the acquisition of physical power is a legitimate goal. That makes him a great villain, giving him the tragic backstory is cliched.

Imagine how it feels to be forced to do the bidding of someone who killed your whole race, humiliates you, and holds you as some sort of trophy, day in and day out.

We have no indication that Freeza did any of that to Vegeta. Yes, he killed the Saiyans, but Vegeta didn't know that until Dodoria told him.

How we react is determined by our ideas, but those ideas develop based on our life experiences and upbringing. However, their views, philosophies, ideals, and so on ultimately derive from those experiences (past, present, future) in the first place, no matter how similar they are.
Only to an extent, and if their experiences are so similar, that pokes a hole in your idea that our ideas develop based on our experiences.

Case in point, the dub line can make sense, and I prefer it.

If you change the character, but then he stops being Vegeta, and becomes the same tragic bad guy we've seen a million times before. Vegeta is plenty dimensional without needing a sad past. If it's sad, it's more of his own making. You may prefer it, but it's not the story and changing that ruins those scenes. An adaptation shouldn't be making those kinds of changes to the characters because they think it makes it better.

Again, for Z it's just sounds too 60-ish for a 90s anime, no matter how evolved the tone goes.

But it's not a 90's anime in the sense that you make it. The series has a timeless feel that still has roots in old kung fu movies and Journey to the West. To put a definitively "modern and western" score onto it feels like Lucas putting new CGI into movies made over 30 years ago. What about the score sounds 60's-ish? What is wrong with 60s music? And how doesn't it fit?

[DemonRin]

So my recommendation is to watch the original if you haven't already. I'm not saying you'll change your mind with 100% certainty, but you may appreciate the score a lot more.

This is kinda the reason I don't like the Kikuchi score in Kai.

In Z, it's clear it was done with a real good level of talent and forethought.

Whether I like it or not, the original Z Dub wasn't made with the Kikuchi score in mind, so it to some extent clashes with the dub voices. Kai, however, is even worse. It's obvious the Kikuchi score there was thrown in at the last minute when the Yamamoto stuff happened, and they took no care or talent in the music placement. You can have the best music in the world, but wrong placement would be horrid.

[fadeddreams5]

But what lack of freedom? He did what he wanted, pretty much. He got to satiate his bloodlust by conquering other planets. His only other goal was to take Freeza's spot. Vegeta's raison d'etre is power, and in a world where individuals can destroy entire solar systems, one could make a good argument that the acquisition of physical power is a legitimate goal. That makes him a great villain, giving him the tragic backstory is cliched.

It's like staying indoors because you want to vs. staying indoors because you're forced to. You're still doing what you wanted to do, but you don't have the option to go outdoors in one scenario. That's lack of freedom. Vegeta may have gotten the luxury to do as he pleased, but he was still ruled by another. He'd naturally want to attain absolute freedom by killing Frieza, but in order to do so, he'd need the power to challenge him first. There are three things that could have driven him: his entitlement as a prince, his obsession with a myth, and his desire to overthrow Frieza. That "survival of the fittest" mentality is also cliche. At least here, he'd have a reason for his actions/mentality, which he carried with him for the rest of his life.

We have no indication that Freeza did any of that to Vegeta. Yes, he killed the Saiyans, but Vegeta didn't know that until Dodoria told him.

I'm basing this entirely on a filler scene. In it, Vegeta and his comrades are humiliated; Vegeta reveals he's already known Frieza destroyed his planet; and he claims that strength is all that matters to him, something that shocks Raditz and Nappa (i.e. two other saiyans). It's no coincidence he preaches this after he leaves Frieza's HQ.

If you change the character, but then he stops being Vegeta, and becomes the same tragic bad guy we've seen a million times before. Vegeta is plenty dimensional without needing a sad past. If it's sad, it's more of his own making. You may prefer it, but it's not the story and changing that ruins those scenes. An adaptation shouldn't be making those kinds of changes to the characters because they think it makes it better.

It's not changing the story or the character--it's just filling a gap and implying his motives for becoming the way he did in the first place. And it all makes sense, given his backstory. In fact, this is how I always interpreted Vegeta. One way or another, he would have still been an evil jerk like the majority of the saiyans, but his drive is far greater than any other because of his unique experiences and how he perceived them.

In the end of the day, however, he is the way he is; his past does not change this.

[EXBadguy]

As much as I don't like inconsistencies, I also think that some lines that the original Funi dub were done for the better. To me, it makes the story sound more better than the way the original did. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm evil for saiyan that.

But it's not a 90's anime in the sense that you make it. The series has a timeless feel that still has roots in old kung fu movies and Journey to the West. To put a definitively "modern and western" score onto it feels like Lucas putting new CGI into movies made over 30 years ago.

I don't think Z has that feeling. It has more of a "serious threat" feeling. Sure, there's so martial arts style here and there, but overall, I don't think evil monkey humanoids being controlled by a alien Hitler lizard is similar to JTTW. Now, I do give Kikuchi credit for changing the tone, but my point still stands. Don't like it as much as people here do.

What about the score sounds 60's-ish? What is wrong with 60s music? And how doesn't it fit?

You're seriously asking me that? No, nothing's wrong with that 60s music. I just think that it doesn't fit for its time. The show's too fast for it.

[VegettoEX]

but overall, I don't think evil monkey humanoids being controlled by a alien Hitler lizard is similar to JTTW.

Then you should read Journey to the West, because the stuff that's in there is just as bizarre.

[EXBadguy]

but overall, I don't think evil monkey humanoids being controlled by a alien Hitler lizard is similar to JTTW.

Then you should read Journey to the West, because the stuff that's in there is just as bizarre.

Oh I did a loooong time ago, I just think the stuff in Z ain't similar. The original DB has more similarities, with the pole being one of the most prominent elements, of course.

[Draconic]

People who consider the Faulconer score better than the original one are everything that is wrong with music made today.

[VegettoEX]

People who consider the Faulconer score better than the original one are everything that is wrong with music made today.

This is quite a statement to make without any context, reasoning, backing, etc.

If you want to have a conversation, please actually have a conversation.

[ABED]

But there's little indication that Freeza was forcing him to do anything more than say a general would a colonel. What lack of freedom did Vegeta really possess. He got to do more or less what he wanted. It's only once he heard of the DB's that he rebelled. Vegeta lusts after power, but that doesn't come from him feeling like he's under Freeza's thumb. Power lust is his motive. You don't need to go deeper than that. Even if he was abused, that wouldn't explain how he reacts.

That "survival of the fittest" mentality is also cliche. At least here, he'd have a reason for his actions/mentality, which he carried with him for the rest of his life.

That's not a reason, it's a shortcut. Bad things happen to a lot of characters, they all don't react the same. Some become villains, some rise above and become heroes. What is the underlying reason why Vegeta reacts the way he does? He wants power. While i don't disagree that survival of the fittest can be a cliche, i don't see it nearly as much as the "lets give the villain a sympathetic backstory" trope. It's ultimately about execution.

I'm basing this entirely on a filler scene.

There you go. You're relying on a scene that contradicts the previous revelation. The filler scene doesn't even help your point, Vegeta says explicitly that he doesn't care, his ultimate goal is power.

In the end of the day, however, he is the way he is; his past does not change this.

Absolutely, it doesn't matter, and bringing up Freeza when his beef is with Goku at that moment is an unneccessary line and I think uncharacteristic of Vegeta. It's not a bad line in the sense that it sounds silly, but it's a line that's not neccessary and deviates from the text.

Oh I did a loooong time ago, I just think the stuff in Z ain't similar. The original DB has more similarities, with the pole being one of the most prominent elements, of course.

It's not a different show.