Do we expect too much from Super?

[Saturnine]

People don't hate GT because it's not canon.

People hate GT because it's bad, contradicts the rules of the universe established earlier and has a lot of Toei patting themselves on the back with their forced attempts to reconcile their own original material with Toriyama's, often giving more spotlight to the former.

It being non-canon is not a reason to dislike GT, it's more of a justification for dismissing it. You tell yourself it's not canon, so you don't have to worry about it.

[sintzu]

GT contradicts the rules of the universe established earlier and has a lot of Toei patting themselves on the back with their forced attempts to reconcile their own original material with Toriyama's.

You mean like what Super is doing ?

[Saturnine]

GT contradicts the rules of the universe established earlier and has a lot of Toei patting themselves on the back with their forced attempts to reconcile their own original material with Toriyama's.

You mean like what Super is doing ?

I don't recall Super putting in Cooler or Janemba into the main timeline, like it was done in GT. GT makes it seem like the Cooler movie actually happened, while it isn't possible to make it fit into Z's timeline, not without lots of gymnastics at least.

And what did Super do? Preserve Gregory or Satan's apprentices, harmless flavor characters? How can that be even compared to what was done in GT?

Not to mention that Super explicitly works on the assumption that filler didn't take place (Goku doesn't acknowledge the "Super-Kaioken" as something that ever took place), while GT embraces it instead - that's the difference right there.

[pacz360]

GT contradicts the rules of the universe established earlier and has a lot of Toei patting themselves on the back with their forced attempts to reconcile their own original material with Toriyama's.

You mean like what Super is doing ?

I don't recall Super putting in Cooler or Janemba into the main timeline, like it was done in GT. GT makes it seem like the Cooler movie actually happened, while it isn't possible to make it fit into Z's timeline, not without lots of gymnastics at least.

And what did Super do? Preserve Gregory or Satan's apprentices, harmless flavor characters? How can that be even compared to what was done in GT?

Not to mention that Super explicitly works on the assumption that filler didn't take place (Goku doesn't acknowledge the "Super-Kaioken" as something that ever took place), while GT embraces it instead - that's the difference right there.

Gt didn't have janempa nor super kaioken appear.

[G Slim]

It just feels like super has the potential to keep the story going for YEARS but It's the way they execute the stories that throws me off. It almost feels half assed and rushed a lot of times which it probably is, but if that's the case then I wish toriyama would've taken his time with developing the story.

[fadeddreams5]

GT contradicts the rules of the universe established earlier and has a lot of Toei patting themselves on the back with their forced attempts to reconcile their own original material with Toriyama's.

You mean like what Super is doing ?

I don't recall Super putting in Cooler or Janemba into the main timeline, like it was done in GT. GT makes it seem like the Cooler movie actually happened, while it isn't possible to make it fit into Z's timeline, not without lots of gymnastics at least.

Just because Cooler and other movie villains had cameo appearances in the background doesn't mean the movies they appear in are canon within the series itself. They're just easter eggs.

[sintzu]

And what did Super do?

Super had Beerus say he used 10% of his power to take down Ssj2 Vegeta then later say that he's still stronger than a 10× Kaioken SsjB Goku who trained with Whis for a year or a bit less and 3 years with Vegeta.

[Anime Kitten]

Super had Beerus say he used 10% of his power to take down Ssj2 Vegeta then later say that he's still stronger than a 10× Kaioken SsjB Goku who trained with Whis for a year or a bit less and 3 years with Vegeta.

God of Destruction Goku. I think he's selfish enough post-Battle of Gods (SSG power being not his own) to accept the offer.

[fadeddreams5]

And what did Super do?

Super had Beerus say he used 10% of his power to take down Ssj2 Vegeta then later say that he's still stronger than a 10× Kaioken SsjB Goku who trained with Whis for a year or a bit less and 3 years with Vegeta.

To be fair, it's never outright stated outside of that one Toriyama interview. In the filler episode where Beerus is dressed as Monaka, Base Goku goes toe to toe with him, despite Beerus one-shotting SSJ3 Goku with minimal effort at the start of the series.

Beerus probably lied to Vegeta, just like he lied when he told SSJG Goku he was fighting at 100%.

[Lord Beerus]

And what did Super do?

Super had Beerus say he used 10% of his power to take down Ssj2 Vegeta then later say that he's still stronger than a 10× Kaioken SsjB Goku who trained with Whis for a year or a bit less and 3 years with Vegeta.

To be fair, it's never outright stated outside of that one Toriyama interview. In the filler episode where Beerus is dressed as Monaka, Base Goku goes toe to toe with him, despite Beerus one-shotting SSJ3 Goku with minimal effort at the start of the series.

Beerus probably lied to Vegeta, just like he lied when he told SSJG Goku he was fighting at 100%.

That's the theory I always gone with. Not mention he also lied about Monaka to motivate Goku and Vegeta for the Universe 6/Universe 7 tournament. Beerus always seems to be full of porkies.

[Saturnine]

Yeah, like the guys have said. Super does have contradictions within itself, sure, but it's as easy to reconcile them as to assume that Beerus was just lying.

In GT you can't reconcile some of that shit no matter how hard you tried. Like Kibito Kai using Instant Transmission rather than the Kaioshin Teleportation, which was stated in Z to be superior to the former.

I remember once adding this to Dragonball wikia's list of GT's inconsistencies. It got edited out by the biggest GT fanboy there (who happens to wield, or at least exercise a lot of power around that wikia) with a comment that "it shouldn't be hard for the ultimate god of the universe to learn an Android saga-level technique". The more times you read that comment the more wrong it feels.

Either that or you can just consider stuff like the appearance of Cooler an easter egg, which is fine and shit. But guess what, it's been established in canon material that the deceased don't keep their bodies, barring some special exceptions such as Goku, so that whole fucking segment shouldn't even be possible, and neither should that theatrical Z movie that did the same thing earlier (Fusion Reborn, was it?), because it CONTRADICTS THE VERY PRECEPTS OF THE WORLD LAID OUT BY THE CREATOR.

[Lord Beerus]

Yeah, like the guys have said. Super does have contradictions within itself, sure, but it's as easy to reconcile them as to assume that Beerus was just lying.

In GT you can't reconcile some of that shit no matter how hard you tried. Like Kibito Kai using Instant Transmission rather than the Kaioshin Teleportation, which was stated in Z to be superior to the former.

I remember once adding this to Dragonball wikia's list of GT's inconsistencies. It got edited out by the biggest GT fanboy there (who happens to wield, or at least exercise a lot of power around that wikia) with a comment that "it shouldn't be hard for the ultimate god of the universe to learn an Android saga-level technique". The more times you read that comment the more wrong it feels.

Either that or you can just consider stuff like the appearance of Cooler an easter egg, which is fine and shit. But guess what, it's been established in canon material that the deceased don't keep their bodies, barring some special exceptions such as Goku, so that whole fucking segment shouldn't even be possible, and neither should that theatrical Z movie that did the same thing earlier (Fusion Reborn, was it?), because it CONTRADICTS THE VERY PRECEPTS OF THE WORLD LAID OUT BY THE CREATOR.

Word of advice, never trust the Dragon Ball wiki. Under any circumstances. They mostly base their information on the Funimation dub.

[Saturnine]

Word of advice, never trust the Dragon Ball wiki. Under any circumstances. They mostly base their information on the Funimation dub.

Oh believe me, you don't need to tell me

[Hellspawn28]

People don't hate GT because it's not canon.

People hate GT because it's bad, contradicts the rules of the universe established earlier and has a lot of Toei patting themselves on the back with their forced attempts to reconcile their own original material with Toriyama's, often giving more spotlight to the former.

It being non-canon is not a reason to dislike GT, it's more of a justification for dismissing it. You tell yourself it's not canon, so you don't have to worry about it.

I think GT is not very like because it was a poor show. The show suffers from bad story telling and bad character development. Not to mention the fight scenes didn't live up to DBZ and people did felt like the 1st arc in GT felt like it was made for a younger audience in mind (Given how they made Goku a kid again and the Black Star Dragon Ball hunt was pretty tame and lighthearted. The Bebi saga was when they try to make it feel like DBZ again).

Super did give Vegeta a bigger role again compare to GT when he was mainly use for Bebi as a host and didn't have a major battle until he reach SSj4 much later on. We also had Goten and Trunks recently got to fight Gryll and his gang. The ROF saga still had Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and the others fight before Goku and Vegeta show up.

[Basaku]

Super did give Vegeta a bigger role again compare to GT when he was mainly use for Bebi as a host and didn't have a major battle until he reach SSj4 much later on. We also had Goten and Trunks recently got to fight Gryll and his gang. The ROF saga still had Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and the others fight before Goku and Vegeta show up.

Super is marginally better than GT in this regard. Neither come even close to how Saiyan/Freeza/Android/Cell sagas featured and utilized the ensemble cast, regardless if Goku was the one with final battle or not. Without it, no new DB story content will ever match the original.

[dbzfan7]

Why'd this thread become about GT? I'm confused on what this has to do with the topic at hand. This is about if we expect too much from Super, which I'd say no. If anything it's people being far too lenient, and a smaller few who are way too hard on it. Super is for me very hit and miss. Does some damn good stuff and a fuck load of bad stuff. It ain't no saviour of DB that redeems anything, and it ain't no spawn of Satan like DBE is. It exists. It's nice to have around. It will probably not be considered much by todays standard, and just be a nostalgia trip. A pass time, and definitely nothing groundbreaking or memorable as the series was back then.

[coola]

Super did give Vegeta a bigger role again compare to GT when he was mainly use for Bebi as a host and didn't have a major battle until he reach SSj4 much later on. We also had Goten and Trunks recently got to fight Gryll and his gang. The ROF saga still had Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and the others fight before Goku and Vegeta show up.

Super is marginally better than GT in this regard. Neither come even close to how Saiyan/Freeza/Android/Cell sagas featured and utilized the ensemble cast, regardless if Goku was the one with final battle or not. Without it, no new DB story content will ever match the original.

I would also add Garlic Jr. Saga, one of main reasons i really like this saga, is that it feature my favorite trio, and i just love Kuririn and Piccolo interactions.

[TekTheNinja]

Super did give Vegeta a bigger role again compare to GT when he was mainly use for Bebi as a host and didn't have a major battle until he reach SSj4 much later on. We also had Goten and Trunks recently got to fight Gryll and his gang. The ROF saga still had Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and the others fight before Goku and Vegeta show up.

Super is marginally better than GT in this regard. Neither come even close to how Saiyan/Freeza/Android/Cell sagas featured and utilized the ensemble cast, regardless if Goku was the one with final battle or not. Without it, no new DB story content will ever match the original.

Thing is, GT was up front about it's underutilazation of the cast. Super keeps teasing things and not following through.

[LightBing]

Thing is, GT was up front about it's underutilazation of the cast. Super keeps teasing things and not following through.

With the exception of Mr.Boo, Super has been pretty honest. The opening song with Goku and Vegeta ahead of everybody else couldn't be more direct. I don't know about GT but Super isn't lying to anyone or creating false expectations.
It's usually the people who set themselves up for disappointment. Piccolo fight in the tournament is the perfect example, we were promised a fight and we got it. They didn't say, Piccolo trained and is super strong or any other kind of hype.
Some people reactions post-episodes sourly and boringly repeating "tt's the Goku and Vegeta show", said a lot...

PS: You could say Gohan promised rehabilitation hasn't come through. I would give time for this to develop before taking any conclusion.

[dbzfan7]

Some people reactions post-episodes sourly and boringly repeating "tt's the Goku and Vegeta show", said a lot...

It pretty much is the Goku & Vegeta show. However, is that really an insult though? That depends on perspective. To some that's an insult, while to others it's the natural progression of the series. On the one hand it's lame how lackluster most of the supporting cast is. On the other hand, it might be even worse to forcibly write for them, if there's no real interest in them. Forced material can be pretty bad. I wonder why some people who like the current direction of the show take that comment as an insult. Is it because some people would link that to people calling GT the Goku show? I don't think labeling something "The Goku & Vegeta Show" or "Goku Show" an insult. It's what's done with the focus and executions that counts I think.