The fact that Vegeta has the power of Super Saiyan God without becoming a Super Saiyan God just means that you don't need to become a Super Saiyan God in order to obtain the power of Super Saiyan God.Lord Beerus wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It's not really a plot-hole. Whis explained to Vegeta that by getting control of his ki, he can surpass Goku with SSG power. This seems to be a reference to his rage boost, where he displayed incredible power that he couldn't control, and he was about 7 times weaker than SSG Goku with that power. This implies that the SSG power is dormant inside every Saiyan, so Vegeta temporarily tapped to that power against Beerus, and then got full control over it through his training with Whis, which eventually allowed him to become a Super Saiyan Blue.
Yes, it wasn't explained properly, but the implications are still there. Big fat fucking plot-holes are the ones that are impossible to explain, like the Dragon Balls been active after 8 months in the 23rd TB arc.Then Goku should have never said in Super, when he became a Super Saiyan Blue, that the form was the result of a “Saiyan who’s a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”. That line, in my opinion, destroys any kind of loophole that can be given for Vegeta skipping Super Saiyan God to become a Super Saiyan Blue. It just doesn't add up. If Goku doesn't explicitly say that line, I wouldn't have that much of an issue with Vegeta going straight to Super Saiyan Blue without the Super Saiyan God transformation, because nothing is really established or implied about how the form is achieved. But Goku flat out states the basic circumstances of how he attained the form. And that's the big problem. If we have to accept that Vegeta became a Super Saiyan Blue without becoming a Super Saiyan God, then we have to ignore everything Goku said about how he became a Super Saiyan Blue in Resurrection F and Dragon Ball Super. So, yeah, I'm sticking to my guns. It's a big, fat fucking plothole now matter what way you look at it.Darkprince410 wrote:To be fair, it was never stated to be mandatory. The Ssj God ritual in itself was never said to be the only way for a Saiya-jin to obtain godly ki, just the only way that Shenlon knew about from the book of legends he was pulling his information from, as it was how the previous god came to be. So, in itself, it's not a plot hole.
Plot Holes
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Plot Holes
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Darkprince410
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Re: Plot Holes
He did obtain the power of one though, just he simply didn't need to undergo the ritual to become a Super Saiya-jin God. Goku isn't saying that it's an actual combination of Ssj and Ssj God, just the power of one, which was shown by Vegeta to be something that didn't require the ritual.Lord Beerus wrote: Then Goku should have never said in Super, when he became a Super Saiyan Blue, that the form was the result of a “Saiyan who’s a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”. That line, in my opinion, destroys any kind of loophole that can be given for Vegeta skipping Super Saiyan God to become a Super Saiyan Blue. It just doesn't add up. If Goku doesn't explicitly say that line, I wouldn't have that much of an issue with Vegeta going straight to Super Saiyan Blue without the Super Saiyan God transformation, because nothing is really established or implied about how the form is achieved. But Goku flat out states the basic circumstances of how he attained the form. And that's the big problem. If we have to accept that Vegeta became a Super Saiyan Blue without becoming a Super Saiyan God, then we have to ignore everything Goku said about how he became a Super Saiyan Blue in Resurrection F and Dragon Ball Super. So, yeah, I'm sticking to my guns. It's a big, fat fucking plothole now matter what way you look at it.
Now, if Goku had said it was a literal combination of Super Saiya-jin and Super Saiya-jin God, then sure, it'd be a plothole, but it's only the power of a Super Saiya-jin God that is combined with Super Saiya-jin, and Vegeta managed to train to obtain that power on his own.Kuririn: "Unbelievable! Vegeta's obtained the power of a Super Saiyan God, too?!"
Goku: "Yeah. And unlike me, he didn't borrow the strength of other Saiyans. All of that is purely his own power."
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Lord Beerus
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Re: Plot Holes
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The fact that Vegeta has the power of Super Saiyan God without becoming a Super Saiyan God just means that you don't need to become a Super Saiyan God in order to obtain the power of Super Saiyan God.
Then why on Earth was the form officially called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the first place? Why even bother introducing the Super Saiyan God transformation if you in the end you don't need it? What was so special about Whis' training with Vegeta that took him from SSJ2 tier to SSJ God tier in 6 months yet after Goku trained with Whis' for just two months less than that time he's still weaker than Golden Freeza?Darkprince410 wrote: He did obtain the power of one though, just he simply didn't need to undergo the ritual to become a Super Saiya-jin God. Goku isn't saying that it's an actual combination of Ssj and Ssj God, just the power of one, which was shown by Vegeta to be something that didn't require the ritual.
Now, if Goku had said it was a literal combination of Super Saiya-jin and Super Saiya-jin God, then sure, it'd be a plothole, but it's only the power of a Super Saiya-jin God that is combined with Super Saiya-jin, and Vegeta managed to train to obtain that power on his own.Kuririn: "Unbelievable! Vegeta's obtained the power of a Super Saiyan God, too?!"
Goku: "Yeah. And unlike me, he didn't borrow the strength of other Saiyans. All of that is purely his own power."
Why? Why? Why?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Plot Holes
Because it is a form with god ki, a form with the power of Super Saiyan God.Lord Beerus wrote:Then why on Earth was the form officially called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the first place? Why even bother introducing the Super Saiyan God transformation if you in the end you don't need it?
Apparently, Whis' training with Vegeta during these 6 months was in order to draw out his Super Saiyan God power, he didn't just make normal gains through his training. By the time Goku arrived, all of these dormant powers were released.What was so special about Whis' training with Vegeta that took him from SSJ2 tier to SSJ God tier in 6 months yet after Goku trained with Whis' for just two months less than that time he's still weaker than Golden Freeza?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Lord Beerus
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Re: Plot Holes
But he never did the freaking ritual. That's my major grip with the whole thing. How can Vegeta be able to tap into Godly Ki if he's never been exposed to it in the first place? It doesn't make any sense. Super has essentially told us you don't need to become a Super Saiyan God to become a Super Saiyan Blue/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or attain Goldly Ki. You just need to do the right kind of training, and you're set.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Apparently, Whis' training with Vegeta during these 6 months was in order to draw out his Super Saiyan God power.
What bullshit.
I mean, if you can just train and attain Goldly Ki and become monstrously strong training with Whis' for at least 6 months, then guys like Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, have no right not being on the same tier of strength as Goku and Vegeta are right now. They should all be Super Saiyan Blue/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan tier strength. But they aren't because... reasons. I don't know why none of them thought it would be good idea to ask Whis to train them especially since Goku tells the Z-Fighters that is exactly how Vegeta got so insanely strong in the first place. So in the process: the Z-Fighters look like idiots for not bothering to ask Whis to train them, the Super Saiyan God transformation has become pointless and Vegeta is a special snowflake in the power hierarchy.
Ugh.
Spoiler:
Re: Plot Holes
Are you suprised by this? With freeza bullshit powerup and vegeta's crap super just basically saying we don't give a shit. Amazes how super became more of a mess than gt when it came to power levelsLord Beerus wrote:But he never did the freaking ritual. That's my major grip with the whole thing. How can Vegeta be able to tap into Godly Ki if he's never been exposed to it in the first place? It doesn't make any sense. Super has essentially told us you don't need to become a Super Saiyan God to become a Super Saiyan Blue/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or attain Goldly Ki. You just need to do the right kind of training, and you're set.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Apparently, Whis' training with Vegeta during these 6 months was in order to draw out his Super Saiyan God power.
What bullshit.
I mean, if you can just train and attain Goldly Ki and become monstrously strong training with Whis' for at least 6 months, then guys like Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, have no right not being on the same tier of strength as Goku and Vegeta are right now. They should all be Super Saiyan Blue/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan tier strength. But they aren't because... reasons. I don't know why none of them thought it would be good idea to ask Whis to train them especially since Goku tells the Z-Fighters that is exactly how Vegeta got so insanely strong in the first place. So in the process: the Z-Fighters look like idiots for not bothering to ask Whis to train them, the Super Saiyan God transformation has become pointless and Vegeta is a special snowflake in the power hierarchy.
Ugh.
Re: Plot Holes
Well not everyone has the same potential as full-blooded Saiyans and not everyone could endure Whis' training to begin with (a training that was deemed as very dangerous btw). Also by that point, base Vegeta *was* stronger than any other Z fighter (bar Goku and SSJs), including Piccolo and #18 (well he was stronger than them since the 25th TB but anyway here it is again) as evident by the fact that he was the only one who could perceive the fight of Goku Vs Beerus– yes Jaco has good eyes but for the main cast perception was always related to one’s power level.Lord Beerus wrote:I mean, if you can just train and attain Goldly Ki and become monstrously strong training with Whis' for at least 6 months, then guys like Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, have no right not being on the same tier of strength as Goku and Vegeta are right now. They should all be Super Saiyan Blue/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan tier strength. But they aren't because... reasons. I don't know why none of them thought it would be good idea to ask Whis to train them especially since Goku tells the Z-Fighters that is exactly how Vegeta got so insanely strong in the first place. So in the process: the Z-Fighters look like idiots for not bothering to ask Whis to train them, the Super Saiyan God transformation has become pointless and Vegeta is a special snowflake in the power hierarchy.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Hellspawn28
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Re: Plot Holes
I'm surprise no one mention how Goku and Vegeta can train for three days in the Room of Spirit and Time when Goku said in the past that a person can only enter it twice in a lifetime or only for two years. Goku went in the room twice in his life time.
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ChaosLordBrandon
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Re: Plot Holes
Dende fixed the door and improved it. It's stated right the episode before they train inside of it.Hellspawn28 wrote:I'm surprise no one mention how Goku and Vegeta can train for three days in the Room of Spirit and Time when Goku said in the past that a person can only enter it twice in a lifetime or only for two years. Goku went in the room twice in his life time.
Also Goku and Vegeta should be able to just open a right like Buu and Gotenks did, even if the door were to vanished.
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Hellspawn28
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Re: Plot Holes
Oh crap, I totally forgot about that. Another plot hole I remember in GT is that the one-star ball was inside Dr. Myuu's head. How is it that a Black Star Dragon Ball was inside Dr. Myuu's head this whole time if the Black Star Dragon Balls scattered recently?
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Re: Plot Holes
One thing that always bugged me was how exactly Taopaipai survived the bomb blast. Where did he go? In what condition what he found? And of course something that requires an even bigger suspension of disbelief is that Tao actually got fatally injured by a mere RRA bomb when he could take on a Kamehameha by a Goku whose Kamehameha was equal to that of Roshi in the 21st TB. Surely it was not equal to the max Kamehameha that destroyed the freaking moon but even if it was just a billionth as strong as that it would be more destructive than a million large nuclear bombs! Not to mention the other WTF moment of Goku and Roshi be in danger from General Blue’s time bomb.
Some are quick to point out Gero’s bombs in the Android arc but that is not the same. If it was you have to wonder if Gero was in possession of so powerful explosives (that release planet busting energy and with localised range too) why he even bothered to create the Androids in the first place. He could just go outside Goku’s house, put that all-powerful bomb and kill Goku that way. For the record I never believed that the bomb itself could kill the Androids anyway. I mean it would but due to exploding inside them and destroying their vital organs. If it was to explode outside and them get caught in the explosion I doubt it. Yes, Android 16's bomb was supposedly intended for Goku but probably the bomb would just initiate #16's self-destruction and it was the self-destruction that would be really powerful to kill Goku. Not the bomb itself. Or the other way round - the bomb was drawing power from the Androids Ki resource for the explosion. The scene is filler anyway though #16 in the manga thinks that his explosion could take on Perfect Cell and kill everyone from the cast too, so the filler is certainly not baseless.
Some are quick to point out Gero’s bombs in the Android arc but that is not the same. If it was you have to wonder if Gero was in possession of so powerful explosives (that release planet busting energy and with localised range too) why he even bothered to create the Androids in the first place. He could just go outside Goku’s house, put that all-powerful bomb and kill Goku that way. For the record I never believed that the bomb itself could kill the Androids anyway. I mean it would but due to exploding inside them and destroying their vital organs. If it was to explode outside and them get caught in the explosion I doubt it. Yes, Android 16's bomb was supposedly intended for Goku but probably the bomb would just initiate #16's self-destruction and it was the self-destruction that would be really powerful to kill Goku. Not the bomb itself. Or the other way round - the bomb was drawing power from the Androids Ki resource for the explosion. The scene is filler anyway though #16 in the manga thinks that his explosion could take on Perfect Cell and kill everyone from the cast too, so the filler is certainly not baseless.
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Spoiler:
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Plot Holes
He just found it and placed it inside his head to hide it? Which is why he started searching the rest of them.Hellspawn28 wrote:Oh crap, I totally forgot about that. Another plot hole I remember in GT is that the one-star ball was inside Dr. Myuu's head. How is it that a Black Star Dragon Ball was inside Dr. Myuu's head this whole time if the Black Star Dragon Balls scattered recently?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Hellspawn28
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Re: Plot Holes
But Bebi was still being rebuild before the Black Star Dragon Balls was sent off into space. Bebi mention that he created around Age 730. So how did Dr. Myuu put a dragon ball inside his head if he was in his containment tube and when the Black Star Dragon Balls was only scattered recently?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Plot Holes
Dr. Myuu placed the Dragon Ball inside his head by himself, and then Baby stole it after he killed him. Why do you assume that the Dragon Ball has been inside there ever since Dr. Myuu was built?Hellspawn28 wrote:But Bebi was still being rebuild before the Black Star Dragon Balls was sent off into space. Bebi mention that he created around Age 730. So how did Dr. Myuu put a dragon ball inside his head if he was in his containment tube and when the Black Star Dragon Balls was only scattered recently?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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hellobooboo14
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Re: Plot Holes
Can this be considered a plot hole? Goku told Gohan to get angry and Gohan said he couldn't tap into his angry like how he did with Cell, but in the tournament Gohan got really angry with Yamu.
Spoiler:
Re: Plot Holes
You have to ask yourself what should be considered a plot hole. In this case, one event doesn't contradict the other. If we were to assume Gohan was as angry in the Budokai like he was against Cell, then alright, we have a plot hole. But we don't know how Gohan measures his anger levels. Not to mention he is adult in Boo Arc. Adults tend to be more emotionally repressed than kids.
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MajinBrolyYamcha
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Re: Plot Holes
One plot hole in Dragon Ball Z is when Cell returns has Super Perfect Cell.
Re: Plot Holes
Why? His return doesn't contradict anything that happened before. He survived due to having Freeza's cells, regenerated due to Piccolo's and powered-up due to Saiyans'.MajinBrolyYamcha wrote:One plot hole in Dragon Ball Z is when Cell returns has Super Perfect Cell.
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Sandubadear
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Re: Plot Holes
I guess it's because he shouldn't have enough energy to regenerate and appear all powered up.Hugo Boss wrote:Why? His return doesn't contradict anything that happened before. He survived due to having Freeza's cells, regenerated due to Piccolo's and powered-up due to Saiyans'.MajinBrolyYamcha wrote:One plot hole in Dragon Ball Z is when Cell returns has Super Perfect Cell.
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Lazy Xenoverse characters: Kuriza, Neko Majin Abra
Re: Plot Holes
That's not really a plot hole. Cell nearly died and regenerated. That's why he powered up. Whatever energy it took to regenerate is compensated by his Saiyan's cells overflowing with energy.Sandubadear wrote:I guess it's because he shouldn't have enough energy to regenerate and appear all powered up.Hugo Boss wrote:Why? His return doesn't contradict anything that happened before. He survived due to having Freeza's cells, regenerated due to Piccolo's and powered-up due to Saiyans'.MajinBrolyYamcha wrote:One plot hole in Dragon Ball Z is when Cell returns has Super Perfect Cell.