I feel Vegeta wanting to surpass Goku again is ruining DB

[saiyanvegetable]

Wow.. Mikado, I didn't mean to get you so riled up. I forget that when you are young, you take offense to being called young. Looked back over my previous post, and I can see how you might have taken that as an insult. At work, I often have to cut other employees slack due to youth/lack of experience, and often lead off with that statement in the sense of understanding their predicament, and explaining solutions to problems. That being said, I can see how you took it as a slam, and while not intended as such, it was a poor choice of phrasing on my part. So I'll concede that as a failing on my part.

Can you be anymore condescending? Especially when his argument has substance and yours..well, could be written into Super?

[Akira]

Saiyanvegetable, I wasn't being condescending, in the very part of my previous post that you quoted, the last line admits failing on my part to have responded in that way. I'm not looking to have a long, drawn out argument/fight here. I honestly would just like to withdraw from this thread, and not be at odds with you and Mikado. You guys like the original dub, and want to stick to it, that's fine, that's your prerogative. I think checking out multiple versions for greater context is a better solution, but that's just my opinion. We seem to disagree here, so may we just agree to disagree on this?

[MetaMoss]

Can you be anymore condescending? Especially when his argument has substance and yours..well, could be written into Super?

How does Akira's argument lack substance, exactly? To me, it seems like he outlined fairly well how the old Funimation dub is inaccurate in how it portrayed the characters compared to the original Japanese. If we're going to discuss Vegeta or any other character's development in the new movies and Super, we're going to have to understand that these developments are based on the manga/anime that came out in Japan.

[PsionicWarrior]

really inaccurate/crappy fansubs back in the late 90's

Oh yeah some of these were gold... You see things like Piccolo flying away then Kuririn shouting at him, "Piccolo!", but the sub says "Gohan!", priceless.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

If the characterization doesn't appear to align with that then it's the localizations problem, but unfortunately for many purest its still valid.

But thats where the problems always come from, unnecessary arguments based on headcanon competing with the source material. Why do you think so many people think that Gohan's character was "ruined" because he isn't a fighter anymore? Because he isn't the character the toonami watchers want him to be, due to the overimplication in the dub that completely flipped Gohan's characterization around from what Toriyama himself already considered when he made him the way he ended up post-Cell arc. Or when people say "Vegeta was a better father" due to that scene where he rushed Cell after Trunks died, while its constantly referenced as evidence; its not even the reason he attacked Cell in the original dialogue. People will reject this and attack Toriyama's name for not being consistent with a dub change they know, that he didn't actually write. Its frustrating beyond belief to have to debate source material with headcanon - or hearing people push it and inaccurate representations as fact, while claiming to have read the manga while contradicting it in their rants. Honestly in my opinion, its one thing to not be fully literate in the original source material, (my knowledge still has its gaps) but don't use the toonami dub as a source for an argument. Its self-defeating.

This is both a fanbase problem, and a artistic "consistency" problem. The tendency of this fanbase to discount a person's experience with the series due to the medium they chose or unwittingly experienced it through is disgusting. [/b] You can argue that the artist and those adapting it have freedom to make the story whatever they want, whenever they want. Or you can make a standard that that must follow creative guidelines for consistency sake. It's amazing to here people discredit different versions of the same stories which have Toriyama's approval but are also the same people to state that it's Toriyama's story as the artist and he is free to change it or let it be changed how he pleases. My personal belief is that artistic integrity and consistency is important and I disapprove of allowing so many variations to exist in the first place.

Well a dubbing company's only job is to translate the product and market it to a western audience or vice versa. Its not really in their place ethically to change the image of the product or americanize the characters out of xenophobia. Legal censorship aside, they shouldn't reinterpret things that don't fit our understanding of how "cartoon" characters are supposed to act. All stories as a medium should be allowed to retain narrative diversity. Marketing Goku as Superman did nothing but give people the impression that this was his entire implicated characterization and any choice he makes as a character that falls out off our expectations of him to always have a certain morality aligned with Superman's marketing, causes people to complain that Goku always lets people die, despite him (to them) being the greatest hero and protector of humanity, etc. People attack his logic from a representation of him that was already inaccurate.

[RedSwissKnife]

Not only is this going against his character development in the boo arc, and also ruining goku as a side effect, but it's also making him way less interesting. If his speech didn't really mean shit, and he's still a jealous little prick who actually surpassed goku with no explanation than he's not vegeta anymore.

Why? Vegeta always wanted to be the most powerful saiyan.

[TheMikado]

Wow.. Mikado, I didn't mean to get you so riled up. I forget that when you are young, you take offense to being called young. Looked back over my previous post, and I can see how you might have taken that as an insult. At work, I often have to cut other employees slack due to youth/lack of experience, and often lead off with that statement in the sense of understanding their predicament, and explaining solutions to problems. That being said, I can see how you took it as a slam, and while not intended as such, it was a poor choice of phrasing on my part. So I'll concede that as a failing on my part.

Can you be anymore condescending? Especially when his argument has substance and yours..well, could be written into Super?

Yeah exactly, I haven't been here for a few days but wow that's pretty disgusting, I don't know how anybody could defend this...

Can you be anymore condescending? Especially when his argument has substance and yours..well, could be written into Super?

How does Akira's argument lack substance, exactly? To me, it seems like he outlined fairly well how the old Funimation dub is inaccurate in how it portrayed the characters compared to the original Japanese. If we're going to discuss Vegeta or any other character's development in the new movies and Super, we're going to have to understand that these developments are based on the manga/anime that came out in Japan.

And there it is, not sure if you read the whole thread but him stating multiple times that I'm "young" when I already STATED and replied that he has no clue how old I am and is likely pulling it out of thin air and judging from his comment am likely older than him is not only condescending but close to a personal attach that I didn't realized was permitted in this forum. Anyway I already stated and acknowledged that the dubs represent the characters different than the originals. My point is that not only allowing localizations but also filler which show your characters in a different light and the plastering your name all over the work does little to help people. I find it incredible strange that when people talk about the story and characters and they someone says that's NOT Toriyamas version it bizarre because it was permitted to be dubbed and added to. If Toriyama was concerned about the purity of the characters as we are arguing here, then Toriyama would not allow adaptations and them stamping his name on them. Basically no one cares about the original Japanese vs the Dub vs the Manga. Not even Toriyama. Arguing over what's most "pure" is pointless when the creator doesn't care about consistency at all even in his own works. The reality is that if an artist doesn't care enough that some corporate entity in fouling up their works and original intentions for the sake of making a dollar it's not longer art, it's a paycheck. Now if you want to accept that the creator changed his mind and this is now how he wants his art represented that's fine too but you then need to acknowledge that all versions the creator allows and approves could represent a change of vision and would be equally valid.

[Kamiccolo9]

He was fucking apologizing. What is wrong with you people?

[PsionicWarrior]

Basically no one cares about the original Japanese vs the Dub vs the Manga. Not even Toriyama.

I do. Screw the dubs. As if I would watch Tarkovsky or Kurosawa in french, makes no sense to me.

[Zephyr]

Anyway I already stated and acknowledged that the dubs represent the characters different than the originals. My point is that not only allowing localizations but also filler which show your characters in a different light and the plastering your name all over the work does little to help people. I find it incredible strange that when people talk about the story and characters and they someone says that's NOT Toriyamas version it bizarre because it was permitted to be dubbed and added to.

Wait, are you actually comparing the relationship between Toriyama's manga and Toei's adaptation of Toriyama's manga with Toei's adaptation of Toriyama's manga and Funimation's "localization" of Toei's adaptation of Toriyama's manga? Because that's not the same thing. It boggles the mind that people even find the relationship to be comparable. Anyway, regardless of if a change was permitted or not via higher up legal stuff, that doesn't really change Toriyama's intent with the characters.

Basically no one cares about the original Japanese vs the Dub vs the Manga. Not even Toriyama.

Toriyama's a lackadaisical guy, sure, but the dub is among the Dragon Ball related products that is probably the furthest possible from his radar. You seem to be implying (though I could be mistaken) that Toriyama has just as much possibility to pull from Funimation's dub's versions of the characters as Toei's or his own "versions" of the characters when crafting new stories. Why would he care about another country's localization of the anime adaptation of a story he has only recently started to care about? Toriyama's at least commented on his dislike for what Toei has done with Goku's character. He hasn't even implied that he knows that Funimation as a company even exists (to my knowledge). I mean it'd be no surprise if he knew that Funimation existed, but my point is that him caring about the dub in any way, shape, or form is beyond unlikely. Him actually using that dub's unique character traits is even less stupendously unlikely.

If Toriyama was concerned about the purity of the characters as we are arguing here, then Toriyama would not allow adaptations and them stamping his name on them. Arguing over what's most "pure" is pointless when the creator doesn't care about consistency at all even in his own works. The reality is that if an artist doesn't care enough that some corporate entity in fouling up their works and original intentions for the sake of making a dollar it's not longer art, it's a paycheck. Now if you want to accept that the creator changed his mind and this is now how he wants his art represented that's fine too but you then need to acknowledge that all versions the creator allows and approves could represent a change of vision and would be equally valid.

A. I don't think anybody's talking about what Toriyama "cares about" when discussing how badly the dub butchered the characterization, but rather what Toriyama wrote.
B. A company in a different country absolutely butchering their localization job (whether it is understandable or not) doesn't constitute a "change in vision" on Toriyama's part.
C. A company in a different country carving out a "new vision" of the characters doesn't mean Toriyama has any remote obligation to adhere to this "new vision".
D. It's a very well known and documented fact that Toriyama legitimately cares about Dragon Ball again, not simply as a paycheck.
E. I grew up with Funimation's localization of Toei's adaptation of Toriyama's manga as well. That doesn't mean that I'm metaphysically bound to it or something. Just because you grew up with it doesn't mean that it's good, and just because you grew up with it doesn't mean that you can't grow out of it. And, and this is the important part that a lot of dubbies with persecution complexes don't seem to realize, you can outgrow something and view it as having poor quality and still garner enjoyment from it. Funimation's version of the anime is not how the characters really are. That doesn't mean I can't watch the old dub, have a nostalgia trip, get some laughs at the poor production, and be thankful that it got me into the series. I can even have a sort of fondness for the characters as Funi presented them. This is all consistent with acknowledging and accepting that an adaptation of an adaptation of a character's personality has, and should have, absolutely no bearing on current productions penned by the mind of the individual who made the source material of the source material for the adaptation of the adaptation in question. I mean no ill will in any of this, just trying to get my point across.

[TheMikado]

^ I've already said that the problem is that the way it's represented and adapted is the problem. I obviously wasn't aware there were such core differences in the characterizations between versions before coming here I didn't even know such a thing fan "canon" existed. The problem is this is not something Toriyama states as their being a "canon" or that he even cares about it. We have tons of different products with his name slapped on it of varying quality and involvement and it's expected that people should be able to sort through and be aware of what is "canon" and what isn't plus know that what they experienced previously because it's outside the "canon" is not relevant to other content. I mean does no one see how utter ridiculous that expectation and premise is??

Toriyama's at least commented on his dislike for what Toei has done with Goku's character.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, why license out and let your product be adapted if you are going to complain about the adaptation? It's not like you couldn't have gotten more creative control in negotiations of the contract. I understand that Toriyama cannot go line by line for every adaptation, but it's not like he hasn't had plenty of opportunities to prevent further bastardized versions of this creative works from being produced. You cannot squarely place this mess of Toei or Funimation when the X factor and he attitude to allowing others to take liberity in adapting his works. Any reasonable person would expect it could create things outside of his original vision but to do it over decades multiple times means he does not see these things as unacceptable like the rest of the fanbase does. If the original creator doesn't care enough to establish a "canon" and continually, actively allows adaptations even after those experiences you would have to think he doesn't care about that fan made idea of "canon" at all.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

And there it is, not sure if you read the whole thread but him stating multiple times that I'm "young" when I already STATED and replied that he has no clue how old I am and is likely pulling it out of thin air and judging from his comment am likely older than him is not only condescending but close to a personal attach that I didn't realized was permitted in this forum. Anyway I already stated and acknowledged that the dubs represent the characters different than the originals. My point is that not only allowing localizations but also filler which show your characters in a different light and the plastering your name all over the work does little to help people. I find it incredible strange that when people talk about the story and characters and they someone says that's NOT Toriyamas version it bizarre because it was permitted to be dubbed and added to. If Toriyama was concerned about the purity of the characters as we are arguing here, then Toriyama would not allow adaptations and them stamping his name on them. Basically no one cares about the original Japanese vs the Dub vs the Manga. Not even Toriyama. Arguing over what's most "pure" is pointless when the creator doesn't care about consistency at all even in his own works. The reality is that if an artist doesn't care enough that some corporate entity in fouling up their works and original intentions for the sake of making a dollar it's not longer art, it's a paycheck. Now if you want to accept that the creator changed his mind and this is now how he wants his art represented that's fine too but you then need to acknowledge that all versions the creator allows and approves could represent a change of vision and would be equally valid.

I think you´re missing the point the others are trying to make, they´re talking about what´s more "canon" or what´s the most "pure" version of the character, they´ve been saying that you´re not comparing the same person went discussing (in previous posts) about the character of Vegeta.
What I mean: you have been using dub localized DBZ Vegeta and compare it to its Japanese DBSuper vegeta counter part when you should have been using japanese DBZ vegeta compared to japanese DBSuper Vegeta instead.

[TheMikado]

No I get that, which is why I'm not making that argument. The problem is that I would need to rewatch/read just to get the characterization correct and link it to Super. And according to those in the thread that would be expected if every person who watched the original dub and then tries to enjoy Super.
Furthermore I like and prefer the characters I've known through the dub, the response I have to super could be the same response many fans will have once it hits American shores and could literally tank the series in America. Maybe some will like these characterizations maybe some won't but I think we will get a better idea once it's localized, but I doubt people will be telling everyone watching in America to go read the original manga.

[MetaMoss]

No I get that, which is why I'm not making that argument. The problem is that I would need to rewatch/read just to get the characterization correct and link it to Super. And according to those in the thread that would be expected if every person who watched the original dub and then tries to enjoy Super.
Furthermore I like and prefer the characters I've known through the dub, the response I have to super could be the same response many fans will have once it hits American shores and could literally tank the series in America. Maybe some will like these characterizations maybe some won't but I think we will get a better idea once it's localized, but I doubt people will be telling everyone watching in America to go read the original manga.

And this is why I mentioned earlier about why inaccurate adaptations such as the old Funi dub are a problem: you are now shit out of luck. Now that the Japanese side of things is making a continuation of their version, which you can easily tell is not compatible with yours, you either have to a) get familiar with the Kai dub, manga, or the original Japanese or b) struggle to accept that your Dragon Ball will never have a continuation. Ideally, mid-90s Funimation would have made the decisions that never put you in this situation in the first place, but here we are. It sucks tremendously, and I can tell you're suffering with this in these posts, yet there's nothing that we can change. I can recommend you the manga or the Kai dub, but it's up to you if you want to go through with that route.

I don't necessarily think this will be a detriment to Super's North American release, however. Most of the folks who grew up watching DBZ probably haven't really watched it in at least a couple of years (remember, it finished its run back in 2003), and even if they are keeping up with the airing on Adult Swim, that's Kai, so that is the version that will be fresh on their minds. Going to see Battle of Gods and Resurrection F at the theater, which does have these characterizations, I didn't notice anyone have any problems with it. Sure, my personal experience is anecdotal at best, but I seriously doubt many people even noticed. There will be folks like you which have kept up with your love of the old Funi dub that will have the same issues you do, but that'll be a drop in the bucket compared to the tons of lapsed fans who just want to see Goku back in action.

[pacz360]

Uh can we get back on topic instead harping on sub,dub bullshit #27374838393933pls

[Zephyr]

We have tons of different products with his name slapped on it of varying quality and involvement and it's expected that people should be able to sort through and be aware of what is "canon" and what isn't plus know that what they experienced previously because it's outside the "canon" is not relevant to other content. I mean does no one see how utter ridiculous that expectation and premise is??

Well, this is a franchise primarily targeted at children. Them putting that much time and effort into something so utterly unnecessary (for profit) is, I think, sort of utterly ridiculous to expect.

There's also the fact that Kai exists. Kai was seen, from many of the Funimation voice actors themselves, as a chance to make a proper dub. So, there is an English version of the anime that has characterization consistent with Super's.

There's also the fact that Super is not currently being marketed to North Americans at all. It's not in any way, shape, or form available in our country. So, what gripes we may have with them being inconsistent with the version they allowed us to be exposed to are entirely irrelevant to them.

[Akira]

Good heavens, I do not understand your anger, Mikado. Did you read my previous post, or did you skim the first part, and skip right over to the "quote" button to go to town on me again? For the record, no one is attacking you, nor have I said anything else derogatory about you. In fact, in case you missed it, I admitted fault in my last post, and tried to make things right with you. You even quoted that exact part!

Kamiccolo even pointed this out, in fairly obvious verbiage, with not so much as a notice from you.

While I am inclined to actually take offense to being slammed by you and saiyanvegetable, I am going to refrain from this, because I still believe that this is all a big misunderstanding. From as best as I can understand, I inadvertently hit a nerve with you when I said you were young. Please understand, that it was not my intention or aim to offend you with that. It was poor phrasing on my part, and I apologize for it nonetheless. I said this in my previous post, but you went on a tirade against me again. Hopefully underlining it will get your attention this time.

As far as my on-topic responses go, I am not much a fan of the original dub anymore, because of the extremely different impression it gives, and the inaccuracy of the dialog. Yet, I still enjoy the english voices from that dub, and I enjoyed hearing it in the language that I speak for many years. I am not some sort of dub vs. subs guy, or anything of the sort. I've watched the series through many different ways, and let me tell you, I'd take that dub track over some of the pitiful fansubs I watched back in the mid to late 1990's on VHS and VCD.

You have the orange bricks, am I correct? I have that set too, and when I do watch that older dub track, I just hit the "subtitle" button once or twice until it gets to the Japanese subtitles. You can listen in english audio with either music track, and yet have the subtitles from the Japanese version showing along with it. That's not a bad way to enjoy that dub, and still get some additional insight to the original intent while listening in a language you can understand, and a version that you like. I watched it through that way more than a few times, and it was very enlightening at various points.

Watching it in this suggested manner is a good compromise to make, and is probably your only option to enjoy the version you like, but also gain some insight that will help bridge the gap with the newer content and make it easier to understand. My only intent was to point out some of the major differences in the versions to you in my previous posts, not to belittle it, and by doing so, offend you in some manner. I hope you can understand this, and not rage on me for trying to help you find a solution to something that is annoying you. I'm sure if you look around these forums, you will see that my intent is to help other fans, and have enjoyable discussions with them. I do not have a history of antagonizing others, and I regret that you took my posts as such.

Can we move forward with friendly discussion? May we virtually "shake hands" here? Let's not make this into a fight, I don't want that. Who knows, I could be wrong altogether, maybe you are much older than me, and I greatly offended someone who would have had to been born in the 1970's to be my senior.. If that is the case, then grab a rocking chair next to this old fart, and let's discuss the days of good rock music on vinyl records, and how hard it was to be a fan of this series in the pre-internet days together.