The new arc will (may?) settle an old debate: Tenshinhan vs. Kuririn

[lord turbo]

The "debate" has been settled since sometime in 1993, when Toriyama told us vicariously through Yamcha in the manga that Kuririn was "the strongest in the world, at least among Earthlings." Every source that matters has only repeated that sentiment since then, and it seems highly unlikely at this point that Kuririn will lose the title.

Just to interject, but that's not quite as set in stone as you may believe it to be. Yamcha like everyone else in the series is a character that's is only aware of what he knows at any giving time. Yamcha's statement only holds true seven years ago when he saw Kuririn and Tenshinhan fighting for their lives against the Cell Jrs, he has no intel on Tenshinhan's current level so he's merely speaking his uninformed opinion at this point. The RoF character profiles are flawed because they literally just copy and paste the same incorrect information from the BoGs character profiles. For one, Beerus wasn't strongest being, Whis was, Gohan wasn't stronger than a pure Saiyan (Goku or Vegeta) during BoGs, well, he's stronger than Tarble, but that's not really what people are thinking when they use that quote now is it?

The next flawed statement is Kuririn for the simple fact Oob exist, last time I checked he's mentioned as being a full blooded human Earthling by Goku in the manga and I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet he's listed as such in official supplements as well so saying Kuririn is the strongest Earthling is false. The last information is Toriyama saying it so it must be true line of thinking. That's not true either, I've seen the interview and its clear Toriyama was agreeing with the person that said it as he never took the time to ponder and go "Wait, no...actually, Oob is the strongest Earthling, I forgot, hahaha." The fact Oob slipped his mind means its very well possible others such as Tenshinhan also slipped his mind so I wouldn't hold that interview as something set in stone either.

All things considered there's nothing in the series that puts Kuririn stronger than Tenshinhan and vice versa as set in stone, its merely inconclusive due not enough substantial information available. The only time an answered seemed remotely implied was Tenshinhan performed better against the same set of opponent that gave Kuririn a hard time during the RoF film which paints Tenshinhan either > or = Kuririn, not inferior. However, we seem back to square one since the retold of it in Super gives us no such thing and all the Z-senshi have an easy time with Freeza's soldier. this upcoming universal survival arc may be the only thing to give a concrete answer, but I'll laugh if the tournament completely dodges the question and beats around the bush by giving opponents that get zero comparison between Kuririn and Tenshinhan just to keep the debate going, lol.

[Akyon]

The "debate" has been settled since sometime in 1993, when Toriyama told us vicariously through Yamcha in the manga that Kuririn was "the strongest in the world, at least among Earthlings." Every source that matters has only repeated that sentiment since then, and it seems highly unlikely at this point that Kuririn will lose the title.

Just to interject, but that's not quite as set in stone as you may believe it to be. Yamcha like everyone else in the series is a character that's is only aware of what he knows at any giving time. Yamcha's statement only holds true seven years ago when he saw Kuririn and Tenshinhan fighting for their lives against the Cell Jrs, he has no intel on Tenshinhan's current level so he's merely speaking his uninformed opinion at this point. The RoF character profiles are flawed because they literally just copy and paste the same incorrect information from the BoGs character profiles. For one, Beerus wasn't strongest being, Whis was, Gohan wasn't stronger than a pure Saiyan (Goku or Vegeta) during BoGs, well, he's stronger than Tarble, but that's not really what people are thinking when they use that quote now is it?

Did Yamcha just suddenly lose the ability to sense power levels in the Buu arc? I keep seeing this brought up like Yamcha's a total ki sensing dunce, but if Goku can sense power levels on OTHER planets, Yamcha should be able to pick out the two largest human energy signals on Earth and be able to tell them apart. Especially since they're his two closest (human) friends.

The next flawed statement is Kuririn for the simple fact Oob exist, last time I checked he's mentioned as being a full blooded human Earthling by Goku in the manga and I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet he's listed as such in official supplements as well so saying Kuririn is the strongest Earthling is false. The last information is Toriyama saying it so it must be true line of thinking. That's not true either, I've seen the interview and its clear Toriyama was agreeing with the person that said it as he never took the time to ponder and go "Wait, no...actually, Oob is the strongest Earthling, I forgot, hahaha." The fact Oob slipped his mind means its very well possible others such as Tenshinhan also slipped his mind so I wouldn't hold that interview as something set in stone either.

Uub/Oob is still quite young. Chances are his power hasn't quite reached the stage it had by EoZ yet, and unless I'm mistaken Goku suggested Uub was only powerful when he got angry? Would certainly explain why none of the gang are weirded out by a sudden HUGE power appearing out of no where.

However I have to laugh at the idea of Tenshinhan being forgotten. He remembered to include him in the Buu saga, and he had a moment of glory in the Cell saga. Toriyama's forgetful, sure, but come on he'd have to be suffering from actual life threatening levels of dementia to forget a character who is actually included in the arc he's currently writing such as the RoF or BoG storylines.

All things considered there's nothing in the series that puts Kuririn stronger than Tenshinhan and vice versa as set in stone, its merely inconclusive due not enough substantial information available. The only time an answered seemed remotely implied was Tenshinhan performed better against the same set of opponent that gave Kuririn a hard time during the RoF film which paints Tenshinhan either > or = Kuririn, not inferior. However, we seem back to square one since the retold of it in Super gives us no such thing and all the Z-senshi have an easy time with Freeza's soldier. this upcoming universal survival arc may be the only thing to give a concrete answer, but I'll laugh if the tournament completely dodges the question and beats around the bush by giving opponents that get zero comparison between Kuririn and Tenshinhan just to keep the debate going, lol.

Battle performance doesn't always equal power, else I'd of assumed Krillin could kick Tien around the block in the Saiyan saga simply by the performances they gave against Nappa;
Krillin sent him flying three times, Tien didn't send him flying once.
Krillin defeated several Saibamen in one move, Tien beat one.
Krillin was able to dodge Nappa's attacks, Tien lost his arm.
Krillin survived the battle, Tien was less fortunate.

Ergo Krillin should be the stronger fighter at that point following the logic of putting in a better showing against the same opponent, but nope, we know for a fact he's weaker.

[Kaboom]

Out of curiosity, I did look up what the various Daizenshuu volumes had to say about Oob. His Boo-level power is generally treated as a still-dormant potential thing not to be fully realized until Goku trains him after the series' conclusion, and he's not directly compared to anyone else. So it seems apparent that clearly nobody had forgotten about him, but in terms of power he's still just all about hidden potential rather than surface power, akin to young Gohan.

All that said, Oob obviously still wouldn't factor at all into Yamcha's uncontradicted Boo-arc line or material relating to the current pre-ending stories.

[lord turbo]

Did Yamcha just suddenly lose the ability to sense power levels in the Buu arc? I keep seeing this brought up like Yamcha's a total ki sensing dunce, but if Goku can sense power levels on OTHER planets, Yamcha should be able to pick out the two largest human energy signals on Earth and be able to tell them apart. Especially since they're his two closest (human) friends.

No, but this has nothing to do with what I said either. Sensing ki is one thing, but knowing about a person's training and progress is something else altogether as shown multiple times through out the series when ever the fighters gather together after a time skip they are unaware of their new increased levels.

Uub/Oob is still quite young. Chances are his power hasn't quite reached the stage it had by EoZ yet, and unless I'm mistaken Goku suggested Uub was only powerful when he got angry? Would certainly explain why none of the gang are weirded out by a sudden HUGE power appearing out of no where.

Whether Oob is quite young or not still does not change the fact he possess power far greater than Kuririn and he's classified as earthling male just like he is. When Vegeta was shocked to hear about Oob he asked why he can't sense someone that strong on Earth, Goku replied its because he's suppressing his ki. Keep in mind Vegeta is the same person that was unaware of his own son (kid Trunks) true power during the Early portions of the Buu saga and they live together no less, the same thing with Gohan and Goten, keep in mind people are unable to locate Tenshinhan during the Buu saga as well so no, its not like people are keeping tab on others at all times.

However I have to laugh at the idea of Tenshinhan being forgotten. He remembered to include him in the Buu saga, and he had a moment of glory in the Cell saga. Toriyama's forgetful, sure, but come on he'd have to be suffering from actual life threatening levels of dementia to forget a character who is actually included in the arc he's currently writing such as the RoF or BoG storylines.

Ummm... please keep in mind this interview took place many years later (Early 2000s) after the series was long over and concluded. The other guy randomly brought up Kuririn and Toriyama just agreed to it without taking the time to really consider it. Toriyama himself constantly states how he forgets even the most basic of things (Keep in mind this man is not a diehard fan that scrutinize the series like we fans do), yet, I do find it very plausible Toriyama was not thinking of anyone else be it Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Roshi, Oob, and etc. when he made such comment to begin with which is totally in character for the guy. With that in mind the interview becomes invalid since we know for a fact Oob is the strongest Earthling and not Kuririn, this isn't an opinion, its a fact so I wouldn't use this interview as some divine proof of anything.

Battle performance doesn't always equal power, else I'd of assumed Krillin could kick Tien around the block in the Saiyan saga simply by the performances they gave against Nappa;
Krillin sent him flying three times, Tien didn't send him flying once.
Krillin defeated several Saibamen in one move, Tien beat one.
Krillin was able to dodge Nappa's attacks, Tien lost his arm.
Krillin survived the battle, Tien was less fortunate.

It does in this series, also, context matters completely. In RoF film Tenshinhan is shown barehanded schooling all of with minimum effort and no trouble, Kuririn against the exact same class of opponents is shown barehanded having difficulty and being overwhelmed to the point he needs to be saved by Gohan. This clearly paints Tenshinhan as the stronger of the two, however, this is only for RoF film as in Super no such events takes place where we can accurately gauge their performance against each other.

The example with Nappa is missing context and is situational, not the same thing. Also, I wouldn't use survival as a measuring stick of who's stronger than who during that saga considering Piccolon was less fortunate against Nappa as well, but you are not trying to say that shows Kuririn > Piccolo are you?

Ergo Krillin should be the stronger fighter at that point following the logic of putting in a better showing against the same opponent, but nope, we know for a fact he's weaker.

If you blindly ignore context, sure.

[lord turbo]

Out of curiosity, I did look up what the various Daizenshuu volumes had to say about Oob. His Boo-level power is generally treated as a still-dormant potential thing not to be fully realized until Goku trains him after the series' conclusion, and he's not directly compared to anyone else. So it seems apparent that clearly nobody had forgotten about him, but in terms of power he's still just all about hidden potential rather than surface power, akin to young Gohan.

Ummm...Oob is shown and stated to be suppressing his power by Goku when Vegeta questioned why he couldn't sense someone like that on Earth that could challenge them at the tournament. That's already stating Oob > Kuririn or any other male Earthling from the get go. Oob during his fight with Goku confirmed his thoughts by proving he was as strong as he believed so this is something throw away "You have great potential line", he was strong at that current point and training would make him more powerful than he already is. Regardless, Oob > Kuririn.

All that said, Oob obviously still wouldn't factor at all into Yamcha's uncontradicted Boo-arc line or material relating to the current pre-ending stories.

Well of course not, Oob wasn't or didn't exist yet, however, like I told the other guy Yamcha's statement only applies to 7 years ago as he has no idea about Tenshinhan's current level or wereabouts years later so back to square one and I've already addressed the issues with supplement material so um...what exactly proves Kuririn > Tenshinhan in the manga again during the Buu saga?

[Kaboom]

I think what this all boils down to is that whatever points in Tenshinhan's favor there may be to make, none of them can possibly override the A) direct strength-related statement in the manga, B) consistent repetition of that sentiment by the guidebooks for the last 20 years, and C) direct word of god from Toriyama, all plainly saying "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling" (and it's pretty flippin' obvious beyond all self-kidding what that statement means when it comes to who is or isn't an "Earthling").

It's fine if you disagree with that, and think that Tenshinhan should be stronger than Kuririn. But that doesn't mean he is stronger, and until Toriyama says, "psyche, I've been lying since 1993, Tenshinhan's been the strongest Earthling all along," then Kuririn is the stronger one. It is what it is.

so um...what exactly proves Kuririn > Tenshinhan in the manga again during the Buu saga?

Toriyama writing "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling" in the Boo arc and never contradicting it afterward. That in itself is already plenty.

Why leave it like that — or even write it at all — if it's not meant to be true? That's a big part of what bugs me about this whole thing. The desire to somehow prove that Tenshinhan's stronger than Kuririn requires stamping a big red "FALSE" on sooooo many different straightforward quotes from different sources, even the author himself.

As for Oob, however his power may work at that point and regardless of how we may rationalize things, for some reason he's simply not included in the 'strongest Earthling' running by official sources. Maybe because his power is still mostly dormant, maybe because he appeared too late to matter, who knows? Heck, come to think of it, just about everything establishing that Kuririn's the strongest Earthling is connected to stories before Oob ever appeared. The Majin Boo arc, the new movies, Super... all pre-Oob. The only outlier is Toriyama's personal comment, and frankly the man doesn't owe us a "but what about Oob" side-note.

Any way you slice it, the very MOST that Oob's existence can possibly do is take the "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling" fact and attach "(until Oob appears)" to the end of it. It doesn't somehow negate the statement entirely, and it especially doesn't involve Tenshinhan at all.

[JulianStyles]

To dismiss 17 as Earthling is being selective on what you want to believe. How Distant Tiens ancestors are we don't know. He could be from a tribe that never mated with humans.

Also Tien is not always categorized as Earthling. DVD orange box bios under race simply say Decendant of the three eyed people. For Krillin,Yamcha,Roshi,Choutzu it says Earthling.

If you can't find more of a reason other than a statement that can easily be picked apart with its glaring flaws. Then you have to leave room open to being wrong.

[JulianStyles]

This arc is very important to this because it will be canon. Take Bojack movie for example. People say it's not canon. Yes it's not part of the main story. But the characters are represented accurately. Kanzenshuu has a great article about how Akira participated in almost every filier and movie. Bojack is proof read the script and created the villians.

Now in a tournament style you can tell whos stronger. Tien is portrayed > Krillin. But fans dismiss it as if they know more than the company,writers,staff and people who directly interact with the creator. So finally a tournament style with proper scaling based on opponents and dialogue.

[lord turbo]

Toriyama writing "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling" in the Boo arc and never contradicting it afterward. That in itself is already plenty.

Not really, I've already explained why, in detail no less so I have no idea why you keep bringing this up like its some end of all be all, its not. Lets go through this one more time, Yamcha makes a statement to Kuririn's daughter he's the strongest Earthling. Okay, this is fine, except its made pretty clear in that very same Buu saga no one is aware of Tenshinhan (Yamcha included), where he is, what's he been up to, and so on both before the 25th Budokai and after Majin Buu appears when everyone is trying to gather everyone else. Tenshinhan only appears to everyone with Gotenks absorbed Buu and vanishes once again after the debacle. Its also made clear none of the ki sensing characters knows how strong someone is after any time-skip until after they see them in action.

In fact, we have such an example where Vegeta declares himself superior to Goku without even seeing the guy seven years later or what he's been up too. Yamcha makes the same kind of comment and he has not seen Tenshinhan in 7 years since the Cell Games, why does he have authority on someone's level he has no clue about at that point?

Why leave it like that — or even write it at all — if it's not meant to be true?

Please don't ask me to prove a negative or build a strawman that has very little to do with my own argument at hand.

As for Oob, however his power may work at that point and regardless of how we may rationalize things, for some reason he's simply not included in the 'strongest Earthling' running by official sources.

And that there lies the problem, no matter what excuse you may think of will change this. Its made painfully clear in the final chapters of Dragon Ball that Oob > Kuririn and holds the title of strongest Earthling before the series is concluded. There's no if, ands, or buts about it, its as clear as day so its rather pointless to do a ton of mental gymnastics just to maintain a flawed viewpoint, that makes very little sense to me. I don't care about what random secondary supplement materiel/sources says that's completely contradicted by the series the man himself wrote.

The only outlier is Toriyama's personal comment, and frankly the man doesn't owe us a "but what about Oob" side-note.

That's quite the mental gymnastics to avoid making a logical counter-argument.

[Kaboom]

The bottom lines are: 1) Nobody in charge seems to care about or include Oob, so why should we? 2) Oob eventually usurping the "strongest Earthling" throne from Kuririn has nothing to do with Tenshinhan.

For some reason or another, Oob just isn't included in the equation. Ask Toriyama why, not me. If we're going to be needlessly nitpicky then yes, technically, for that tiny 1% of the story at the very end, Oob was the strongest Earthling. But absolutely nothing about that translates into meaning that Tenshinhan was the strongest until then instead of Kuririn. At the very most, it only means that Kuririn was the strongest Earthling until Oob came around. It shows, tells, and proves nothing in Tenshinhan's favor.

When the constantly-repeated statement is "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling," it's pretty dang clear what that means. Nobody rational should need extra info like "because guys like Android 17 don't count as Earthlings" and "Oob appeared too late to matter," because that's all implicit and obvious just from the statement itself. "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling" is self-explanatory.



I've said it a hundred times before and I'll keep saying it: there is no "debate" here. There's reality clashing with denial. There's a very clear official statement, with an obvious meaning, that's been repeated constantly at every opportunity for the past 20 years, and then there's a vocal minority of people who protest and try to conjure up ways to get around it because they simply don't want it to be true.

That's what makes it all so tiring. It's pointless and has no reason to even be argued about. It's just like a bunch of futile banging of fists and heads against a gigantic steel wall. The wall was placed there 20 years ago within a 10-foot-deep concrete foundation, would take a gigantic construction crew with heavy-duty vehicles to move, and is perfectly fine where it is. But half a dozen people out of a thousand think that it should be about 5 feet over instead and keep desperately trying to move it by hand, because they think a different patch of dirt looks a little more sturdy than the one the wall was built on.

For the life of me I don't understand why this is even argued about anyway. There's so many other in-universe and strength-related things that are still a mystery, so why protest and argue against one of the few things that we actually do have an answer for already? What's so downright amazing about Tenshinhan that he has to be the largest ant among the dinosaurs, even if literally EVERYTHING out there — even the one who created the ants and dinosaurs in the first place — says that someone else is?

Seriously... the only question or uncertainty I have ever had on this matter is why it's even debated in the first place. We have the answer. There's no objective internal contradiction to it. It doesn't matter in the long run. So that's the only open-ended question I'll still pose to anyone in the thread... Why must Tenshinhan be stronger than Kuririn in the first place?

[DanielSSJ]

To dismiss 17 as Earthling is being selective on what you want to believe. How Distant Tiens ancestors are we don't know. He could be from a tribe that never mated with humans.

Also Tien is not always categorized as Earthling. DVD orange box bios under race simply say Decendant of the three eyed people. For Krillin,Yamcha,Roshi,Choutzu it says Earthling.

If you can't find more of a reason other than a statement that can easily be picked apart with its glaring flaws. Then you have to leave room open to being wrong.

Well it seems that Toriyama and the staff at Shueisha are being overly selective on what they want to believe, since they're obviously not considering Jinzoningen (Artificial Humans, Androids, Cyborgs, etc.) when they make these statements. And I don't see how this affects Tenshinhan, since his "alien heritage" was expounded in a single data book from the 90's which also went out of it's way to classify himself as an Earthling, something it did not do for No. 17, No. 18, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Pan, or Bra or any of the other person with alien ancestry. And Ten's connection to the aliens is implied to be pretty distant.

It's a small wonder then that Tenshinhan is a descendant of the Three-Eyed people, themselves the posterity of aliens

So he is effectively a descendant of the descendants of aliens.

As for the Orange Brick biography for Tenshinhan, since I don't own the Orange Bricks myself, I can neither confirm nor deny whether or not they classify him as a descendant of the Three-Eyed-Tribe (I wouldn't say no to a scan or a photograph though) but I certainly wouldn't think that a guidebook for the American version of the anime series would take precedence over a manga-based data book that was written by the Japanese, for the Japanese, in Japanese.

Anyway, I think the clincher of this argument is something Kaboom mentioned above.

Why leave it like that — or even write it at all — if it's not meant to be true?

In arguments like this, people are often too obsessed with the details of the situation (whether or not Ten "technically" qualifies as an Earthling, why the Androids aren't being considered, why Gohan, Goten, and Trunks aren't being considered, etc.), they fail to consider the author intent. If Tenshinhan is supposed to be stronger, why set this pin up and not knock it down? Why would he put in an untrue or inaccurate statement like this and never have in contested or otherwise declared incorrect in the series? Because it's not untrue or inaccurate.

Anyways, I sorta doubt that the new story arc is going to make a big deal in regards to the supposed debate on whether or not Tenshinhan is stronger than Kuririn or not. Regardless of who is stronger, Kuririn hasn't really been relevant since the Freeza arc, and Tenshinhan hasn't been since the Saiyan arc (outside of a few cool moments)

[Gog]

Your all wrong about the strongest earthling. Its obviously the champ himself.

Krillin and Tien haven't knocked out Gohan

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And I'm sure that they haven't actually beaten Beerus in a one, on one battle to the death

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Akyon]

Battle performance doesn't always equal power, else I'd of assumed Krillin could kick Tien around the block in the Saiyan saga simply by the performances they gave against Nappa;
Krillin sent him flying three times, Tien didn't send him flying once.
Krillin defeated several Saibamen in one move, Tien beat one.
Krillin was able to dodge Nappa's attacks, Tien lost his arm.
Krillin survived the battle, Tien was less fortunate.

It does in this series, also, context matters completely. In RoF film Tenshinhan is shown barehanded schooling all of with minimum effort and no trouble, Kuririn against the exact same class of opponents is shown barehanded having difficulty and being overwhelmed to the point he needs to be saved by Gohan. This clearly paints Tenshinhan as the stronger of the two, however, this is only for RoF film as in Super no such events takes place where we can accurately gauge their performance against each other.

The example with Nappa is missing context and is situational, not the same thing. Also, I wouldn't use survival as a measuring stick of who's stronger than who during that saga considering Piccolon was less fortunate against Nappa as well, but you are not trying to say that shows Kuririn > Piccolo are you?

Why is the fight with Nappa missing context and situational and not the fight with the Frieza squadron in RoF in your opinion then?
I just gave a perfectly legitimate case of the two fighters fighting the exact same fighter and to my knowledge the only person they've both fought at the same time with their brute force.

I'll give you the Saibamen since the original point was to buy time for Goku, but what about the context of Nappa am I missing?

As for Piccolo, clearly not. He does BETTER than Krillin technically in the battle and is shown to be stronger than him at every turn. Tien was not shown to be stronger than him in this fight, and had we not had official power levels it'd make as much sense to think Krillin>Tien during the Saiyan Saga as it does to think Tien>Krillin in the Cell and Buu sagas since the only argument real argument for disregarding Toriyama's comment seems to be "more feats of strength" within those arcs.

As you said though; Uub makes the whole thing moot in the end anyway.

[lord turbo]

The bottom lines are: 1) Nobody in charge seems to care about or include Oob, so why should we? 2) Oob eventually usurping the "strongest Earthling" throne from Kuririn has nothing to do with Tenshinhan.

1. Your words seem to reflect the mindset of "Who the hell cares, it just so happens to match my argument so I'm going to use it whether it makes sense or not, capiche?" That's what your attitude sounds like to me which is weird since Oob has relevance to the discussion at hand so its an odd demeanor to take.

2. Oob already stole Kuririn's claim to "Strongest Earthling" title the moment Goku first mentioned him to Vegeta and showed this during their fight. To make it more evident in Dragon Ball Super Goku brings up Oob, but Vegeta mentions he's too young to participate (Retcon I know) on their team so its not like Oob ceased to exist since his last appearance or something. Oob has everything to do with Kuririn and Tenshinhan since he's an Earthling male just like them so any discussion asking about strongest Earthling automatically involves him by default whether intentionally or not.

For some reason or another, Oob just isn't included in the equation. Ask Toriyama why, not me.

You're dodging a the question, a question that doesn't need to be dodged in the first place. I don't need to ask Toriyama as I already know his thoughts on the subject regarding the manga which is Oob > Kuririn. Dragon Ball Super (A very recent thing) further elaborates Oob > Kuririn so that settles that. Again, I could careless about secondary supplement sources that can't even get basic canon right.

If we're going to be needlessly nitpicky then yes, technically, for that tiny 1% of the story at the very end, Oob was the strongest Earthling.

Wow, did you seriously try to say Oob, a character greatly talked about in the final chapters is being nitpicky? Complaining about his amount of screen time is being nitpicky.

But absolutely nothing about that translates into meaning that Tenshinhan was the strongest until then instead of Kuririn. At the very most, it only means that Kuririn was the strongest Earthling until Oob came around. It shows, tells, and proves nothing in Tenshinhan's favor.

Nothing absolutely translates to Kuririn > Tenshinhan either, it works both ways and before you get it twisted I'm not arguing for either character being stronger than the other, I'm arguing for the simple fact its just inconclusive. Maybe this Universal survival saga will clear things up, but until then I simply remain by the fact its uncertain.

When the constantly-repeated statement is "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling," it's pretty dang clear what that means.

Constantly repeated? Once in the series is considered a constantly repeated statement? A statement contradicted by the fact Yamcha has not, I repeat has not seen or know about Tenshinhan's current status or level 7 years, I repeat 7 years later. If you're going to use a statement add context to it. An interview where Toriyama clearly forgot which Earthling was stronger than which? A character bio from RoF film that states Kuririn is the strongest Earthling, a film where Tenshinhan clearly outperforms Kuririn himself? Did I cover all the bases, is there any source I missed that blatantly neglects Oob in some false attempt to give Kuririn an empty title?

I've said it a hundred times before and I'll keep saying it: there is no "debate" here. There's reality clashing with denial. There's a very clear official statement, with an obvious meaning, that's been repeated constantly at every opportunity for the past 20 years, and then there's a vocal minority of people who protest and try to conjure up ways to get around it because they simply don't want it to be true.

Over exaggeration much? Don't lump me in the same group you may dismiss so casually. Pointing out flaws and errors that exist does not mean one is in denial, if anyone is in denial it is the person blatantly ignoring all evidence to the contrary and pretending everything fits flawlessly and is peachy.

[lord turbo]

Why is the fight with Nappa missing context and situational and not the fight with the Frieza squadron in RoF in your opinion then?
I just gave a perfectly legitimate case of the two fighters fighting the exact same fighter and to my knowledge the only person they've both fought at the same time with their brute force.

I'll explain why with each point you mentioned earlier

1. Krillin sent him flying three times, Tien didn't send him flying once. The context being all the times Kuririn sent Nappa flying as from suckershots when he was off guard which is not a display of superior power level.

Krillin defeated several Saibamen in one move, Tien beat one. Kuririn accomplished this with a specilaized ki technique. We already know from the Raditz fight ki techniques can greatly amplify the power of the attack above the user's normal level of power.

Krillin was able to dodge Nappa's attacks, Tien lost his arm. Kuririn was able to dodge a raging Nappa who fights sloppy and poorly compared to a calm Nappa as seen when he does phenomally better against Goku when he calms down compared to getting tooled something fierce when he's in blind rage.

Krillin survived the battle, Tien was less fortunate. Piccolo was also less fortunate, but I wouldn't say Kuririn > Piccolo though.

when you add context, you points become moot and prove nothing in genetal.

As for Piccolo, clearly not. He does BETTER than Krillin technically in the battle and is shown to be stronger than him at every turn.

Not really, we are verbally told Piccolo is the strongest of Kuririn and Gohan before the battles begins from Nappa, but he does nothing to show superiority over everyone else in actual battle. Against Nappa he gets utterly punked in one blow while Tenshinhan took additional blows without losing consciousness from Nappa. Kuririn was oneshotted by the shockwave of a missed ki blast.

Tien was not shown to be stronger than him in this fight, and had we not had official power levels it'd make as much sense to think Krillin>Tien during the Saiyan Saga as it does to think Tien>Krillin in the Cell and Buu sagas since the only argument real argument for disregarding Toriyama's comment seems to be "more feats of strength" within those arcs.

Neither Kuririn, nor Tenshinhan, or anyone else do anything to show any comparison among themselves against Nappa. Everyone gets horribly decimated and puts up no real fight against Nappa. The difference for RoF everyone is shown fighting in their normal level of power barehanded against Freeza's forces. Tenshinhan has zero issues while Kuririn has difficulty and is shown getting overwhelmed by the same class opponents Tenshinhan casually punked. In this regard Tenshinhan is shown superior to Kuririn and equal to at worst during the RoF film which is funny considering the character bio claimed Kuririn was the strongest Earthling for that film, but look how that turned out in the actual film itself.

[dragonball0900]

Have to agree with lord turbo here. Nappa went against Tien first instead of Krillin. Put in on this way:

Imagine Nappa didn't go against Tien, and instead he goes against Krillin. He could've broken his arm as well. In the original fight, Nappa wanted to kill Tien first, while Krillin, Piccolo and Gohan were just there watching the fight. Also, Krillin's attacks against Nappa was because Nappa was caught off guard. Imagine putting Tien in Krillin's place, Tien would've done the same thing Krillin did if Nappa decided to kill Krillin first instead of Tien.

[dbgtFO]

Have to agree with lord turbo here. Nappa went against Tien first instead of Krillin. Put in on this way:

Imagine Nappa didn't go against Tien, and instead he goes against Krillin. He could've broken his arm as well. In the original fight, Nappa wanted to kill Tien first, while Krillin, Piccolo and Gohan were just there watching the fight. Also, Krillin's attacks against Nappa was because Nappa was caught off guard. Imagine putting Tien in Krillin's place, Tien would've done the same thing Krillin did if Nappa decided to kill Krillin first instead of Tien.

Tenshinhan could have dodged, but didn't because he was deluded enough to believe he could stand his ground. Krillin would get out of there ASAP, but at least he would have escaped the first attack unscathed. Maybe then in conjunction with the others, they could have mounted a counter-attack.

[Draconic]

Regarding the Saiyan Arc battle, let's not forget that Tenshinhan's overpowered technique didn't even scratch Nappa's armor, while Krillin's would have killed the guy had Vegeta not interefered.

[dragonball0900]

Regarding the Saiyan Arc battle, let's not forget that Tenshinhan's overpowered technique didn't even scratch Nappa's armor, while Krillin's would have killed the guy had Vegeta not interefered.

Actually, Tien's kikoho did scratch Nappa's armor, also he was the only one with his technique that manages to do so. Krillin's kienzan is able to cut anything no matter how strong is a villian (ex. Frieza)

[Akyon]

Have to agree with lord turbo here. Nappa went against Tien first instead of Krillin. Put in on this way:

Imagine Nappa didn't go against Tien, and instead he goes against Krillin. He could've broken his arm as well. In the original fight, Nappa wanted to kill Tien first, while Krillin, Piccolo and Gohan were just there watching the fight. Also, Krillin's attacks against Nappa was because Nappa was caught off guard. Imagine putting Tien in Krillin's place, Tien would've done the same thing Krillin did if Nappa decided to kill Krillin first instead of Tien.

Broken his arm is an amusingly cute underplay of what happened. I kinda like that. "You just wait til my arm heals!"

The two strongest humans fight completely differently; Krillin uses hit and run tactics and is a combat pragmatist who tends to fight tactically whilst Tien is more of a proud honour before reason martial artist type of guy. Tien tried to tank it because that's a Tien thing to do, but it's not a Krillin thing to do.
If Nappa went after Krillin first...well Krillin never would have tried to block Nappa's strike to begin with so the outcome would have been different straight away. Nappa does take a swing at Krillin later in the fight, and he dodges that. Remember when Vegeta comments on how Krillin "Can move at least"? That's due to his style. Nappa wouldn't hit with punches and kicks. Ki blasts that affect a larger range making it less easy to dodge? That'll work.

Yup, I'm aware that didn't add anything constructive to the debate but it's no worse off for comparing their fighting styles. Might be worth talking about for comparison's sake?