Opinions on Jiren?

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Re: Opinions on jiren?

Post by Asura » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:39 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Besides that, Jiren is very clearly not the main antagonist, so to speak. He doesn't present himself as one, nor does the narrative treat him as that. Instead, it's the stakes of this tournament itself that's the main antagonist for our heroes.
Jiren very clearly IS the main antagonist, at least at the moment. He's been hyped up for months now as the main antagonist. Antagonist doesn't always mean evil guy or villain, it's just someone who opposes the protagonist.
GodKaio-Ken wrote:People love Caulifla and Kale just for being female Saiyans. The show isnt full of well written characters in general...even since original Dragon Ball.
You're right that Dragon Ball is not a show with well written characters at all, but people like Caulifla and Kale for a lot more reasons than just being female saiyans. I wouldn't have cared less for Caulifla if she didn't have a cool design and a badass cocky personality.

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Re: Opinions on jiren?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:43 pm

Asura wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Besides that, Jiren is very clearly not the main antagonist, so to speak. He doesn't present himself as one, nor does the narrative treat him as that. Instead, it's the stakes of this tournament itself that's the main antagonist for our heroes.
Jiren very clearly IS the main antagonist, at least at the moment. He's been hyped up for months now as the main antagonist. Antagonist doesn't always mean evil guy or villain, it's just someone who opposes the protagonist.
GodKaio-Ken wrote:People love Caulifla and Kale just for being female Saiyans. The show isnt full of well written characters in general...even since original Dragon Ball.
You're right that Dragon Ball is not a show with well written characters at all, but people like Caulifla and Kale for a lot more reasons than just being female saiyans. I wouldn't have cared less for Caulifla if she didn't have a cool design and a badass cocky personality.
I'm definitely not saying thats the only reason anyone likes them for sure. I dont mind Caulifla myself, but many people do like them for that reason and were sporting avatars before they had any character or progression.
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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Pannaliciour » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:08 pm

It really felt like a goddam horror movie the way Jiren fought Goku in the beginning in combination with the music. You know the killer thats attack you and you try to run away but he just appears just behind you. He looks like a horror actor (Michael Myers from Halloween)

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:39 pm

Pannaliciour wrote:It really felt like a goddam horror movie the way Jiren fought Goku in the beginning in combination with the music. You know the killer thats attack you and you try to run away but he just appears just behind you. He looks like a horror actor (Michael Myers from Halloween)
Hahahaha this is actually true in a way.

I loved when Jiren finally twitched one muscle and Krillin is like YESSSS HE MOVED!
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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Lionel » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:24 am

You would be hardpressed to find a prospective rival benchmark of Goku's that's not a stoic or overconfident jerk. I can only think of Jackie Chun as not fitting the typical mould that's come to define so many of Goku's rivals like Vegeta, Hit and now Jiren. It's easy to write so the studio and Toriyama continue to rehash it despite being a hackneyed trope that's long overstayed its value.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:39 am

Who cares about his personality. It's his power that really matters. He was specifically created to be the "strong silent type". Hence his lack of personality. Not every character in the show needs to have "personality" you know..

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by MajinMan » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:29 am

Before the special, I thought that Jiren was a boring, uniteresting character. He exists to be cool and stoic. People thought Hit was like that, but my god Jiren took it to another level and multiplied that by 100. He never talked, had no special quirks, and didn't do anything for long periods of time.

After the special, well, he pretty much is and does most of the things I said, but I finally learned his true purpose. And because I learned why he is the way he is, I like his character a lot more now.

Let me explain. Jiren is a monster. "He is strong. Plain and simple." Jiren isn't supposed to be anything else. He's a giant wall. He's a wall that is so high and strong that nobody could ever dream of knocking it down. He's a being that exists to knock everything else down. That is his purpose. He is, to sum it up, Goku's wish. Someone so strong that even he is overwhelmed. People might not like that, and understandably so. You can call him boring or whatever, but he's something we haven't gotten in Dragon Ball. There has never been a character like Jiren, and that unironically makes him completely original, despite his typical stoic nature.

When Hit started to fight Goku, we saw more nuanced sides of him, like how he actually enjoys martial arts despite being a hitman. He improved as the fight went on. He was basically in Goku's same position, being used by the God's in a game. Now he has a sort of "friendship" with Goku.

Jiren, on the other hand, is different. Not once did he show the slightest bit of intimidation when he saw Goku's new form. His only goal was to destroy him. He wanted to take Goku's strongest power and obliterate it with his own. That was his only goal. He showed no interest in him as a person, only that he was a Saiyan. Jiren is simply someone who is defined by his strength, and that's the entire point. Everything said about him is about his strength. About how unstoppable he is. How amazing he is. That is what Jiren is supposed to be. An unstoppable, impossible obstacle.

With all that being said, I still don't think Jiren is one of the best characters to come from this series, but he is far from the worst. The special really changed the way I look at him as a character. His presence felt justified.

I can also be completely wrong and they could give him some sad backstory in the future or whatever, but I doubt it.
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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by gohan_black » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:52 am

like i said before jiren is a clone of hit. just that hit got more screen time and hit talks a little more. but personality wise they both on the same level. would you prefered a charecter that talks way too much? no. the little talkers are the most powerfull this is how it goes. jiren dosent need to have a big personality he suppose to be the mystirious badass. what do you know about hit? nothing. he aint got a big personality either. he just talk little more just because you know him for so long. jiren is cool. its toppo that i hate with his justice bullshit. i hate charecters that reapeat the same shit over and over. just like ribrianne. toppo is annoying. in episode 102 toppo went full retard defending ribrianne transformation. i do hope to so see frieza smack his ass he annoys the fuck out of me.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by gohan_black » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:57 am

MajinMan wrote:Before the special, I thought that Jiren was a boring, uniteresting character. He exists to be cool and stoic. People thought Hit was like that, but my god Jiren took it to another level and multiplied that by 100. He never talked, had no special quirks, and didn't do anything for long periods of time.

After the special, well, he pretty much is and does most of the things I said, but I finally learned his true purpose. And because I learned why he is the way he is, I like his character a lot more now.

Let me explain. Jiren is a monster. "He is strong. Plain and simple." Jiren isn't supposed to be anything else. He's a giant wall. He's a wall that is so high and strong that nobody could ever dream of knocking it down. He's a being that exists to knock everything else down. That is his purpose. He is, to sum it up, Goku's wish. Someone so strong that even he is overwhelmed. People might not like that, and understandably so. You can call him boring or whatever, but he's something we haven't gotten in Dragon Ball. There has never been a character like Jiren, and that unironically makes him completely original, despite his typical stoic nature.

When Hit started to fight Goku, we saw more nuanced sides of him, like how he actually enjoys martial arts despite being a hitman. He improved as the fight went on. He was basically in Goku's same position, being used by the God's in a game. Now he has a sort of "friendship" with Goku.

Jiren, on the other hand, is different. Not once did he show the slightest bit of intimidation when he saw Goku's new form. His only goal was to destroy him. He wanted to take Goku's strongest power and obliterate it with his own. That was his only goal. He showed no interest in him as a person, only that he was a Saiyan. Jiren is simply someone who is defined by his strength, and that's the entire point. Everything said about him is about his strength. About how unstoppable he is. How amazing he is. That is what Jiren is supposed to be. An unstoppable, impossible obstacle.

With all that being said, I still don't think Jiren is one of the best characters to come from this series, but he is far from the worst. The special really changed the way I look at him as a character. His presence felt justified.

I can also be completely wrong and they could give him some sad backstory in the future or whatever, but I doubt it.
jiren broke charecter for a second on part 1 of the special when goku launched a kamehamea during the battle. it was very fast and quick. but he was suprised.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by TekTheNinja » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:58 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:Who cares about his personality. It's his power that really matters. He was specifically created to be the "strong silent type". Hence his lack of personality. Not every character in the show needs to have "personality" you know..
"Not every character needs to have personality" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard on this website. So you're saying a character doesn't need to be a character? It's perfectly fine that he's only a wall for Goku to climb, and not at all a character in his own right? Hell, he doesn't even have an interesting fighting style. He's just a generic brawler who just happens to have really big power numbers.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:09 am

TekTheNinja wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Who cares about his personality. It's his power that really matters. He was specifically created to be the "strong silent type". Hence his lack of personality. Not every character in the show needs to have "personality" you know..
"Not every character needs to have personality" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard on this website. So you're saying a character doesn't need to be a character? It's perfectly fine that he's only a wall for Goku to climb, and not at all a character in his own right? Hell, he doesn't even have an interesting fighting style. He's just a generic brawler who just happens to have really big power numbers.
If we apply video game logic, then things might make a bit more sense.

Jiren is like a video game boss, an obstacle in the player's path that must be overcome. He has huge numbers and generally doesn't have much in the way of characterization, but the thrill of seeing the hero take him on and try and surpass him is the real reason it's enjoyable. Sometimes, we don't need a filet mignon that challenges our taste buds. Sometimes, what's needed is a big feast that we try to scarf down.

Not EVERY character needs to have character, as much of an oxymoron that might be. Sometimes, a story benefits from the big bad simply being a device for the protagonist to grow and change. The lowly faceless mook is a beloved standard of fiction, and Jiren is just that: a faceless mook that the hero needs to overcome to grow as a character. Now, it'd be nice if there was more to it, but it isn't really needed all the time. Just like IRL, it'd be nice if the people in your life were spontaneous and filled with personality, but sometimes what you need is a big dull number to motivate you for the day.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by TekTheNinja » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:38 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Who cares about his personality. It's his power that really matters. He was specifically created to be the "strong silent type". Hence his lack of personality. Not every character in the show needs to have "personality" you know..
"Not every character needs to have personality" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard on this website. So you're saying a character doesn't need to be a character? It's perfectly fine that he's only a wall for Goku to climb, and not at all a character in his own right? Hell, he doesn't even have an interesting fighting style. He's just a generic brawler who just happens to have really big power numbers.
If we apply video game logic, then things might make a bit more sense.

Jiren is like a video game boss, an obstacle in the player's path that must be overcome. He has huge numbers and generally doesn't have much in the way of characterization, but the thrill of seeing the hero take him on and try and surpass him is the real reason it's enjoyable. Sometimes, we don't need a filet mignon that challenges our taste buds. Sometimes, what's needed is a big feast that we try to scarf down.

Not EVERY character needs to have character, as much of an oxymoron that might be. Sometimes, a story benefits from the big bad simply being a device for the protagonist to grow and change. The lowly faceless mook is a beloved standard of fiction, and Jiren is just that: a faceless mook that the hero needs to overcome to grow as a character. Now, it'd be nice if there was more to it, but it isn't really needed all the time. Just like IRL, it'd be nice if the people in your life were spontaneous and filled with personality, but sometimes what you need is a big dull number to motivate you for the day.
That's boring though, and lazy writing. In other shounen and even in prior Dragon Ball, no character is just an obstacle and nothing else. The few characters who are, are forgettable at best and hated at worst. Hatchiack and Hirudigarn are giant mindless monsters who serves their purposes, but I'll be damned if anybody actually cares about them.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:19 pm

TekTheNinja wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Who cares about his personality. It's his power that really matters. He was specifically created to be the "strong silent type". Hence his lack of personality. Not every character in the show needs to have "personality" you know..
"Not every character needs to have personality" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard on this website. So you're saying a character doesn't need to be a character? It's perfectly fine that he's only a wall for Goku to climb, and not at all a character in his own right? Hell, he doesn't even have an interesting fighting style. He's just a generic brawler who just happens to have really big power numbers.
""Not every character needs to have personality" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard on this website."

How is it "the most ludicrous thing" you've ever heard, when i specifically said "not EVERY character"?! I never said no character at all should have personality.
I merely said that not every single character in the show needs to have one. Big difference.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:37 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Who cares about his personality. It's his power that really matters. He was specifically created to be the "strong silent type". Hence his lack of personality. Not every character in the show needs to have "personality" you know..
"Not every character needs to have personality" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard on this website. So you're saying a character doesn't need to be a character? It's perfectly fine that he's only a wall for Goku to climb, and not at all a character in his own right? Hell, he doesn't even have an interesting fighting style. He's just a generic brawler who just happens to have really big power numbers.
""Not every character needs to have personality" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard on this website."

How is it "the most ludicrous thing" you've ever heard, when i specifically said "not EVERY character"?! I never said no character at all should have personality.
I merely said that not every single character in the show needs to have one. Big difference.
The problem with this isn't even the concept of having a "silent-type" antagonist with little personality. The major issue is we've had two of these already... in two other tournaments, only they were more interesting in literally every way! Jiren is terrible.
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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Nickolaidas » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:40 pm

I'm warming up to him. Still needs some persona though. What makes him tick? Is he really fighting for 'justice'?

Also, keep in mind that when Goku became Ultra, he also became stoic and silent like Jiren. So maybe that's a 'thing' the Ultra Instinct has on mortals ...

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by TheMikado » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:42 pm

MajinMan wrote:Before the special, I thought that Jiren was a boring, uniteresting character. He exists to be cool and stoic. People thought Hit was like that, but my god Jiren took it to another level and multiplied that by 100. He never talked, had no special quirks, and didn't do anything for long periods of time.

After the special, well, he pretty much is and does most of the things I said, but I finally learned his true purpose. And because I learned why he is the way he is, I like his character a lot more now.

Let me explain. Jiren is a monster. "He is strong. Plain and simple." Jiren isn't supposed to be anything else. He's a giant wall. He's a wall that is so high and strong that nobody could ever dream of knocking it down. He's a being that exists to knock everything else down. That is his purpose. He is, to sum it up, Goku's wish. Someone so strong that even he is overwhelmed. People might not like that, and understandably so. You can call him boring or whatever, but he's something we haven't gotten in Dragon Ball. There has never been a character like Jiren, and that unironically makes him completely original, despite his typical stoic nature.

When Hit started to fight Goku, we saw more nuanced sides of him, like how he actually enjoys martial arts despite being a hitman. He improved as the fight went on. He was basically in Goku's same position, being used by the God's in a game. Now he has a sort of "friendship" with Goku.

Jiren, on the other hand, is different. Not once did he show the slightest bit of intimidation when he saw Goku's new form. His only goal was to destroy him. He wanted to take Goku's strongest power and obliterate it with his own. That was his only goal. He showed no interest in him as a person, only that he was a Saiyan. Jiren is simply someone who is defined by his strength, and that's the entire point. Everything said about him is about his strength. About how unstoppable he is. How amazing he is. That is what Jiren is supposed to be. An unstoppable, impossible obstacle.

With all that being said, I still don't think Jiren is one of the best characters to come from this series, but he is far from the worst. The special really changed the way I look at him as a character. His presence felt justified.

I can also be completely wrong and they could give him some sad backstory in the future or whatever, but I doubt it.
The irony of this post as a Broly fan is tremendous hate Broly has gotten for having "no personality" or a terrible character. Despite having a far far more interesting form, power, backstory, connection to the main cast, fighting style, etc etc etc.

Anyway the idea that this series needs yet another wall is pretty absurd. We have the highest and most number of walls we have ever had sitting in front of the characters. We have Beerus, Whis, 11 other universes and their gods and angels, the grand priests, zen'os bodyguards, and TWO ZENOS! How many more walls do you need. Plus to introduce yet another wall which is literally nothing but a wall when we already have several much more well established and interested walls to deal with seems unnecessary.

The worst part of this wall business is that Goku is tackling this wall the same way he has every other wall he's come up against. He's increased his power to go over the wall. I really really hope Goku bets Jiren in a way that Goku is still less powerful. I'm hoping the manga makes that a reality but we will see.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:53 pm

Jiren is a cool character. Very unique design with a no-bullshit personality. Very alpha male too. Is it simplistic? Yes. But it works.

He's not as cool as Hit though.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by TekTheNinja » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:58 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Who cares about his personality. It's his power that really matters. He was specifically created to be the "strong silent type". Hence his lack of personality. Not every character in the show needs to have "personality" you know..
"Not every character needs to have personality" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard on this website. So you're saying a character doesn't need to be a character? It's perfectly fine that he's only a wall for Goku to climb, and not at all a character in his own right? Hell, he doesn't even have an interesting fighting style. He's just a generic brawler who just happens to have really big power numbers.
""Not every character needs to have personality" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard on this website."

How is it "the most ludicrous thing" you've ever heard, when i specifically said "not EVERY character"?! I never said no character at all should have personality.
I merely said that not every single character in the show needs to have one. Big difference.
If you were referring to one note background and tertiary characters then maybe you'd have even a shred of validity to that, but you're claiming that a main antagonist of an arc doesn't need to have a personality which is pretty asinine.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:06 pm

Saying a character has no personality is almost always an exaggeration. Jiren has a personality. It's just, at the moment, very simplistic and mysterious. Jiren is someone who's very much to himself. Hit was the same way. Being to yourself and being very reserved, is a personality type. People in real life are like this. It doesn't mean they don't have a personality. In fact, usually it means there's a lot going on in their mind.

Honestly, many of you are way too hard on this franchise.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Pannaliciour » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Does Goku care if his opponent has personality? No, only his power. And this is Dragon ball (fighting serie) no love story. Fact: their are fans that only cares about fighting and power. Do you call them real fans? They dont give a crap.

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