Can we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr the same person?

[Michsi]

There are a lot of weird stuff like this in DB- if we can accept Goku using a magic pole to put someone on the moon or blowing up the moon not having grave consequences to the Earth, I think we can easily accept this.

I don’t get this comparison at all.

There’s a world of difference between Goku has magic compliant staff that can extend at his command and Roshi has enough mastery over his chi to annihilate the moon and all these people survived a giant explosion in less than 3 minutes.


Fantastical elements is not a “Get out of insulting your audience intelligence” free card.

I'm not talking about having a magical staff or chi control I'm talking about laws of physics not applying - like the Earth not suffering severe consequences from having the moon obliterated should fall into the same category of people managing to evacuate in under 20 min.
Btw I believe in the manga the explosion isn't a big as the anime made it out to be so I don't think Piccolo leveled the entire island. They only had to evacuate the surrounding area.

[ABED]

I get it, word spread quickly, but the time it takes to evacuate a city of that size even if everyone had access to either a boat or a plane, it would take entirely too long. I have no idea why Toriyama would try to claim everyone was off the island. He doesn't shy away from mass casualties. But as you said, it's clear that Piccolo didn't care. Why cause a blast that big if all he was after was Goku and maybe his friends. He doesn't know Goku can fly.

I'm not gonna get into technicalities (yes, in RL that would be impossible) but if iIrc Toriyama stated he decided Piccolo Jr. would stick around pretty much from the time he first designed so he was probably careful not to have him do stuff that would make him irredeemable.

There are a lot of weird stuff like this in DB- if we can accept Goku using a magic pole to put someone on the moon or blowing up the moon not having grave consequences to the Earth, I think we can easily accept this.

And yet he reverses that position with Vegeta, who is arguably even worse than Piccolo. Piccolo has the excuse of being a literal personification of evil. Vegeta chose to do what he did and his massacres aren't limited to a single planet. Yet, he has a redemption arc.

Regardless of whether people could get out even in a weird world like DB, Piccolo would think nothing about killing innocent people. His plan was to murder his one challenge and then go right back to what he was going to do before his father/previous self was planning - terrorize and murder humans.

[Michsi]

And yet he reverses that position with Vegeta, who is arguably even worse than Piccolo. Piccolo has the excuse of being a literal personification of evil. Vegeta chose to do what he did and his massacres aren't limited to a single planet. Yet, he has a redemption arc.

Yes, Piccolo redemption was planned. Vegeta's was not. I believe he even stated during pulication of the manga that he wasn't really fond of Vegeta, but he was popular. Different attitude towards characters, different handling of those characters.

I'm not saying Piccolo wasn't evil at that time (he reveled in the knowledge that he could go all out against Goku because he didn't care if the audience got hurt and was wiling to prove that), just that he lacked that gratuitous cruelty his father loved to hand out.

Another example: King Piccolo was also cowardly, and he used Tenshinhan as a hostage when he started getting scared. I can't imagine Piccolo Jr. doing that, even during his evil stage.

[KBABZ]

There are a lot of weird stuff like this in DB- if we can accept Goku using a magic pole to put someone on the moon or blowing up the moon not having grave consequences to the Earth, I think we can easily accept this.

I don’t get this comparison at all.

There’s a world of difference between Goku has magic compliant staff that can extend at his command and Roshi has enough mastery over his chi to annihilate the moon and all these people survived a giant explosion in less than 3 minutes.


Fantastical elements is not a “Get out of insulting your audience intelligence” free card.

I actually agree here. The moon thing worked as a joke for when Dragon Ball was a gag manga, but after the 21st TB this approach is put on the back-burner to focus more on the adventure element (I honestly feel that's why Toriyama decided to revisit the Dragon Ball quest again as the third arc). Certainly by the time Daimao showed up, the tone of the story had changed dramatically.

Now you're probably gonna bring up the Buu saga, but for me the humour there is done in service to either deliberately subvert the tropes the manga had played over and over again by that point, or to deliberately induce mood whiplash and add a dark edge to the light moment (such as turning Chi-Chi into an egg). The original arc to me didn't have any of that and it was much more earnest in its delivery to me.

[Michsi]

The moon thing worked as a joke for when Dragon Ball was a gag manga, but after the 21st TB this approach is put on the back-burner to focus more on the adventure element (I honestly feel that's why Toriyama decided to revisit the Dragon Ball quest again as the third arc). Certainly by the time Daimao showed up, the tone of the story had changed dramatically.

Not to mention that the moon thing happened again in the saiyan saga and sure wasn't used as a joke.

I'm saying RL rules don't need to apply - if we were told they evacuated we can believe people evacuated.

[ABED]

And yet he reverses that position with Vegeta, who is arguably even worse than Piccolo. Piccolo has the excuse of being a literal personification of evil. Vegeta chose to do what he did and his massacres aren't limited to a single planet. Yet, he has a redemption arc.

Yes, Piccolo redemption was planned. Vegeta's was not. I believe he even stated during pulication of the manga that he wasn't really fond of Vegeta, but he was popular. Different attitude towards characters, different handling of those characters.

I'm not saying Piccolo wasn't evil at that time (he reveled in the knowledge that he could go all out against Goku because he didn't care if the audience got hurt and was wiling to prove that), just that he lacked that gratuitous cruelty his father loved to hand out.

Another example: King Piccolo was also cowardly, and he used Tenshinhan as a hostage when he started getting scared. I can't imagine Piccolo Jr. doing that, even during his evil stage.

I understand the differences in characterization, but Piccolo is clearly evil and doesn't care about collateral damage. I don't read this lack of a body count as Toriyama's characterization of the new Piccolo as much as him trying to protect Piccolo by making the death toll a lot lower. The Piccolo we see at the tournament is changing, but he still has yet to show any hesitancy to murder people. He's not againt it.

My point wasn't a nitpicky issue of "this lacks logic" b/c I get your point. Of all the things to zero in on, people making it off an island in 40 minutes or so is low on the list of logical leaps. My issue is that Toriyama felt the need to soften that blow in the first place. It feels like he's pulling his punch. Okay Piccolo is changing, granted, but we haven't see that he's not willing to go there. Instead Toriyama reduces the civilian casualties by having them almost instantaneously get off the island. In short, he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too. It comes off like those dumb lines in the Ocean dub scripted to make the show seem less violent "Look you can see their parachutes" or "This city may have been evacuated...", etc.

[Michsi]

I understand the differences in characterization, but Piccolo is clearly evil and doesn't care about collateral damage. I don't read this lack of a body count as Toriyama's characterization of the new Piccolo as much as him trying to protect Piccolo by making the death toll a lot lower. The Piccolo we see at the tournament is changing, but he still has yet to show any hesitancy to murder people. He's not againt it.

That is almost literally what I stated- the behind-the-scene reason why Piccolo Jr. was different from the get-go, and then Toriyama made that an in-universe observation from Goku's perspective.

[ABED]

I understand the differences in characterization, but Piccolo is clearly evil and doesn't care about collateral damage. I don't read this lack of a body count as Toriyama's characterization of the new Piccolo as much as him trying to protect Piccolo by making the death toll a lot lower. The Piccolo we see at the tournament is changing, but he still has yet to show any hesitancy to murder people. He's not againt it.

That is almost literally what I stated- the behind-the-scene reason why Piccolo Jr. was different from the get-go, and then Toriyama made that an in-universe observation from Goku's perspective.

But the in universe observation doesn't work because nothing in that arc leads me to think Piccolo would give a damn even if he did kill those people. Remember: Show, don't tell.

[Michsi]

I understand the differences in characterization, but Piccolo is clearly evil and doesn't care about collateral damage. I don't read this lack of a body count as Toriyama's characterization of the new Piccolo as much as him trying to protect Piccolo by making the death toll a lot lower. The Piccolo we see at the tournament is changing, but he still has yet to show any hesitancy to murder people. He's not againt it.

That is almost literally what I stated- the behind-the-scene reason why Piccolo Jr. was different from the get-go, and then Toriyama made that an in-universe observation from Goku's perspective.

But the in universe observation doesn't work because nothing in that arc leads me to think Piccolo would give a damn even if he did kill those people. Remember: Show, don't tell.

It does show. And I never said he gave damn about killing, just that he wasn't as cruel as his father in that particular regard. He didn't care about collateral damage, but he didn't go out of his way to inflict pain on folks for shits'n giggles. Goku didn't say Piccolo Jr. was good, just that he wasn't as bad as the old one.
Piccolo Jr. using an alias to "play along" in the tournament (actually getting upset when he thought that he might've killed Kuririn and be eliminated, thus ending the "fun game" ), not shown to gleefully enjoy killing for the sake of it, not stooping to use hostages to gain leverage when he was losing. These might not seem that evident to you, but to me they very much stood out.

[KBABZ]

I understand the differences in characterization, but Piccolo is clearly evil and doesn't care about collateral damage. I don't read this lack of a body count as Toriyama's characterization of the new Piccolo as much as him trying to protect Piccolo by making the death toll a lot lower. The Piccolo we see at the tournament is changing, but he still has yet to show any hesitancy to murder people. He's not againt it.

That is almost literally what I stated- the behind-the-scene reason why Piccolo Jr. was different from the get-go, and then Toriyama made that an in-universe observation from Goku's perspective.

But the in universe observation doesn't work because nothing in that arc leads me to think Piccolo would give a damn even if he did kill those people. Remember: Show, don't tell.

There's an interesting parallel here between Daimao and Jr I just realized. Both flatten an entire city, but in neither case is the death toll explicitly called out by anyone (initially in Jr's case). In fact it hasn't been until just now that I've realized Daimao must have killed everyone in his own capital. The difference for me is that in the case of Jr., the death toll is called out by proxy of Chaiotzu having to explain how he survived (they evacuated the hospital!), whereas with Daimao I feel it wasn't really. It isn't like with Vegeta and Nappa's arrival where we see people go about their day moments before they're decimated, so I guess I never noticed it.

[ABED]

It wasn't for lack of trying that the death toll was lower. It's only from some VERY SLOPPY exposition from Chaozu that we find out Piccolo didn't actually murder anyone. Toriyama might as well have written directly to the audience, "Don't worry children, those buildings were all abandoned".

These might not seem that evident to you, but to me they very much stood out.

I'm not arguing he's not different. In the very same post of mine you quoted, the first sentence is "I understand the differences in characterization..." The sentence that follows the one you bolded is "the Piccolo we see at the tournament is changing..." The old Piccolo wouldn't have fought by the rules of the tournament. However, both Piccolos destroyed the cities they were in for the same exact reason - to kill Goku. In neither case was the aim civilian casualties. He didn't care if he did kill them, but that wasn't his goal.

Here's how the conversation goes
Me: Piccolo murders without any remorse
You: But he's changed and Goku points that out.
Me: He's changed, but he's murdered people or tries to and doesn't show any hesitation.
You: You don't seem to see that he's changed.

the death toll is called out by proxy of Chaiotzu having to explain how he survived (they evacuated the hospital!),

Wait, what is Chaozu's exact line? Does he say the whole city evacuated? If the extent of his explanation is the people in the hospital got out, that makes sense to me and doesn't claim EVERYONE in the city got out.

[KBABZ]

the death toll is called out by proxy of Chaiotzu having to explain how he survived (they evacuated the hospital!),

Wait, what is Chaozu's exact line? Does he say the whole city evacuated? If the extent of his explanation is the people in the hospital got out, that makes sense to me and doesn't claim EVERYONE in the city got out.

Time to investigate! Okay, so I can only go by what's written in the ViZ translation of course.

Tien: Did you evacuate with the rest of the crowd?!
Chiaotzu: Yup!! I was sleeping in the hospital, so they carried me away!!

Which is honestly even MORE confusing, because it seems to imply that the entire attendance of the finals was the entire population of Papaya Island. You know, with skyscrapers and stuff.

The only other thing I can think of is that Jr. didn't blow up the entire island, but rather the local vicinity, and neither the manga nor anime bother to establish just how big Jr.'s blast zone is. But then it's clear the hospital was in the blast zone and they evacuated all the patients in the hospital... at this point it would have probably been easier to say Chiaotzu was killed!

[Michsi]

the death toll is called out by proxy of Chaiotzu having to explain how he survived (they evacuated the hospital!),

Wait, what is Chaozu's exact line? Does he say the whole city evacuated? If the extent of his explanation is the people in the hospital got out, that makes sense to me and doesn't claim EVERYONE in the city got out.

Time to investigate! Okay, so I can only go by what's written in the ViZ translation of course.

Tien: Did you evacuate with the rest of the crowd?!
Chiaotzu: Yup!! I was sleeping in the hospital, so they carried me away!!

Which is honestly even MORE confusing, because it seems to imply that the entire attendance of the finals was the entire population of Papaya Island. You know, with skyscrapers and stuff.

The only other thing I can think of is that Jr. didn't blow up the entire island, but rather the local vicinity, and neither the manga nor anime bother to establish just how big Jr.'s blast zone is. But then it's clear the hospital was in the blast zone and they evacuated all the patients in the hospital... at this point it would have probably been easier to say Chiaotzu was killed!

Yes, the anime greatly exaggerated the blast zone and showed that he leveled the island.

Here's how the conversation goes
Me: Piccolo murders without any remorse
You: But he's changed and Goku points that out.
Me: He's changed, but he's murdered people or tries to and doesn't show any hesitation.
You: You don't seem to see that he's changed.
.

I think this either missing my point or unfairly twisting my words.

Goku establishing that Piccolo Jr. was different was something I brought up as proof that he was different from his father from the start. If he was basically his father in another body he should've acted like the old King Piccolo during the 23TP. And then you said that Goku's words alone don't prove anything and I retorted with examples to show that the story supports Goku's observation+ knowing Toriyama's intention of keeping Piccolo Jr. around.
King Piccolo had a heavy nuance of sadism to him that was all about hurting for the sake of hurting. His game of picking cities to destroy every year is the clearest indication of that. We don't see that in Piccolo Jr. That is what I meant. Both fall into the category of evil and heartless, but only one of them is shown to take pleasure in excessive cruelty and that was one of King Piccolo's distinguishing traits.

[ABED]

Doesn't matter if they exaggerated the blast zone, it was still a huge blast that would've killed hundreds if not thousands and more to the point, he showed zero remorse. I've looked at the manga and not only did it not say the whole island evacuated in time, but there's nothing that shows Piccolo didn't blow the shit out of the whole island like he did in the anime. The manga shows buildings and cars being destroyed, boats in the water get wrecked. Sorry, but Junior murdered A TON of people.

Who's saying Piccolo Jr. is just his father in a new body? What I and presumably others are saying is Piccolo Jr. is different but not a wholly separate being just like Jesus was both God and the son of God. He had very human emotions, including doubt. No one here is claiming Piccolo Jr. isn't different, just that he's not a completely different person. I haven't twisted your words, I'm pointing out that no matter how many times I've acknowledged Piccolo has changed, you make it seem like I'm denying it.

Further proof that he's both is in the scene where Piccolo and Kami are talking in Namekian during the tournament, Piccolo says "Once, you and I were one body". You and I, not you and my father.

[Michsi]

Doesn't matter if they exaggerated the blast zone, it was still a huge blast that would've killed hundreds if not thousands and more to the point, he showed zero remorse. I've looked at the manga and not only did it not say the whole island evacuated in time, but there's nothing that shows Piccolo didn't blow the shit out of the whole island like he did in the anime. The manga shows buildings and cars being destroyed, boats in the water get wrecked. Sorry, but Junior murdered A TON of people.

Who's saying Piccolo Jr. is just his father in a new body? What I and presumably others are saying is Piccolo Jr. is different but not a wholly separate being just like Jesus was both God and the son of God. He had very human emotions, including doubt. No one here is claiming Piccolo Jr. isn't different, just that he's not a completely different person. I haven't twisted your words, I'm pointing out that no matter how many times I've acknowledged Piccolo has changed, you make it seem like I'm denying it.

Further proof that he's both is in the scene where Piccolo and Kami are talking in Namekian during the tournament, Piccolo says "Once, you and I were one body". You and I, not you and my father.

Well, if you say so. I can't force you to believe something else.

And I'm sorry but you were clearly missing my point or twisting my words with "the city" example - You made it seem like I thought Piccolo Jr. murderousness was something frivolous, when my whole point from the start was to indicate how much King Piccolo enjoyed that yet that very essential trait of his was missing from Piccolo Jr. from way before he had any external influences to change him. If he was also his father, he would've acted a lot more like him, but instead it seemed more like an attempt at being him. It was for your show don't tell argument.

And I will look for that quote. Might be one of the parts that does treat Piccolo Jr as his father.

I intentionally avoided the religion parallels because there are too many schools of thought with Christology and I know none of them.

[sintzu]

I think they're different Namakians, just that one got the memories of his father. If somehow your father managed to give you all his memories, you'll still be your own person at the end of the day.

[Michsi]

I think they're different Namakians, just that one got the memories of his father. If somehow your father managed to give you all his memories, you'll still be your own person at the end of the day.

That's pretty much what I think too, that the whole reincarnation bit was before the introduction of Namekians and Namekian reproduction and that's when the whole mysticism surrounding it kinda evaporates.

[ABED]

If he was also his father, he would've acted a lot more like him, but instead it seemed more like an attempt at being him. It was for your show don't tell argument.

So you say, but they aren't the same exact person. Piccolo is both but to be both, he has to act somewhat differently. And it wasn't some weak attempt at being his father. Piccolo had every intention on murdering people and causing terror, but before that, he had to kill Goku.

If somehow your father managed to give you all his memories, you'll still be your own person at the end of the day.

It's an interesting philosophical idea, but I don't think being given someone's memories and life force doesn't mean you aren't both. Again, he's both. He's his father, but in a new body. With a new body comes different circumstances and a different context. Our memories are a lot of what makes us who we are.

That's pretty much what I think too, that the whole reincarnation bit was before the introduction of Namekians and Namekian reproduction and that's when the whole mysticism surrounding it kinda evaporates.

Exept it doesn't. Piccolo Daimao is a Namekian and a mystical entity. He was literally the evil within Kami/God given physical form. Being Namekian doesn't disqualify him from being mystical in nature.

[MasenkoHA]

I think they're different Namakians, just that one got the memories of his father. If somehow your father managed to give you all his memories, you'll still be your own person at the end of the day.

The word reincarnation was used.

The series stated multiple times that Kami and Piccolo Jr came from the same being. That alone should tell you yes Piccolo Daimao, Kami, and Piccolo Jr are all the same Namekian.

[Piccolo_Daima]

Come on man, If Daimao had spent 5 years readying himself to beat Goku, then got beat by him, then Goku spared him, and now he's just spent 5 years waiting around, and now he has to ally with Goku's son to stop a greater threat for basically an entire year... An 11-year span like that can change someone like that. In the 10 years leading up to Raditz's arrival, Piccolo had basically been alone to meditate on his ways, his failures, etc. Presumably, this along with his fairly isolated upbringing changed him quite a lot. And he was with Gohan for a year...

You're talking about the guy who held a grudge against martial artists and rice cookers for hundreds of years.

Lol everyone would hold a grudge against the guy that put him in the mafuba for hundreds of years