Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

[FoolsGil]

Keep in mind that no one before the Kid Buu part of the Buu saga considered Vegeta an ally or friend, besides Goku (who himself hated Vegeta prior to his death speech on Namek), Bulma & Future Trunks. Bulma didn't need to see any "good" in Vegeta for her to hook up with him since she's been known to be attracted to villainous men in the past like Bandit Yamcha, General Blue & Zarbon.

Vegeta stayed around after Namek because they couldn't get rid of him, and if they somehow did the situation would have gotten worse in the long run.

Heh good point, guess I gave Bulma too much credit, nix that part I guess.

Second part is what I said multiple times. same old story every arc.

Unrelated to the above: And while there have been multiple fuck ups that led to Perfect Cell being created, everyone else on the Dragon Team had a better trust record than Vegeta, which is why they aren't given as much crap. Krillin pretty much kept the boat afloat on Namek until Goku showed up. He deserves some slack.

[super michael]

You are missing the point, and how does me telling straight facts make me a Vegeta fanboy?

Krillin wanting to help Android 18 at all is really stupid, because 18 is a killer Android that he barely even knows and her being alive means Cell has a chance to become Perfect. Literally any other Z Fighter would have just pushed the button if they were in Krillin's position. And there's plenty of other women out there besides 18 .

Gohan playing around and wanting to make Cell suffer instead of just killing him right away is stupid and out of character.

By choicing to fight the Androids at all, Piccolo gave away the Androids' location to Cell, so Cell coming anywhere near any of the Androids at all is Piccolo's fault.

The main goal of most of the Z Fighters was to stop the Androids and protect the Earth, Vegeta was the exception. What Krillin, Gohan and Piccolo did in that arc was either inconsistent with that goal or just plain stupid.

Krillin wanted to give C18 a chance to live, there is nothing wrong with that. Krillin saw that C18 was scared. That isn't evil. However Krillin didn't help Cell get his perfect form.

Gohan wanting to get revenge by making Cell suffer is wrong. However Gohan didn't help Cell.


Vegeta oh Vegeta he helps Cell by letting him go and Vegeta even goes as far as become Cell body guard, so if anyone attack him, Vegeta attacks them back.
Trunks is Vegeta son, yet he cared more about Cell words than his son words.
So yes Vegeta helped Cell get his perfect form and protected Cell until he got his perfect form.

Krillin Did help Cell by choosing to destroy the remote device. By letting 18 live, Krillin helped Cell become Perfect.

Gohan also basically helped Cell by not just killing him right away, giving Cell enough time to think of an exit strategy

You can't be serious, Gohan and Krillin didn't help Cell, their intention wasn't to help Cell in anyway.

Vegeta he literally agreed to protect Cell and help him gain his perfect form. If Vegeta didn't help Cell, then Future Trunks wouldn't have failed to kill Cell and Cell wouldn't have absorbed C18.

Krillin wanted to protect C18, not have C18 absorbed.
Gohan wanted to make Cell suffer, not have Cell retain his perfect form or blow up the earth.

[MyVisionity]

They were all selfish.

Gohan was selfish for wanting to make Cell suffer.

Kuririn was selfish for wanting to spare 18 for love.

Vegeta was selfish for wanting to fight Cell in his perfect form.

The point is that they all have done questionable things for selfish reasons that resulted in terrible consequences. No one is going to hold something like that against Vegeta. It's not some kind of unforgivable act.

[super michael]

They were all selfish.

Gohan was selfish for wanting to make Cell suffer.

Kuririn was selfish for wanting to spare 18 for love.

Vegeta was selfish for wanting to fight Cell in his perfect form.

The point is that they all have done questionable things for selfish reasons that resulted in terrible consequences. No one is going to hold something like that against Vegeta. It's not some kind of unforgivable act.

Vegeta attacked his own son and didn't care what Trunks said, how is that not evil. Trunks failed to kill Cell thanks to Vegeta interfering.
Vegeta didn't want to kill Cell himself and didn't want anyone to kill him.

[MyVisionity]

Vegeta attacked his own son and didn't care what Trunks said, how is that not evil. Trunks failed to kill Cell thanks to Vegeta interfering.
Vegeta didn't want to kill Cell himself and didn't want anyone to kill him.

It's not unforgivable. There are different levels to evil. As long as Vegeta isn't directly hurting anyone or causing destruction, then nobody's gonna get too worked up about it.

[super michael]

Vegeta attacked his own son and didn't care what Trunks said, how is that not evil. Trunks failed to kill Cell thanks to Vegeta interfering.
Vegeta didn't want to kill Cell himself and didn't want anyone to kill him.

It's not unforgivable. There are different levels to evil. As long as Vegeta isn't directly hurting anyone or causing destruction, then nobody's gonna get too worked up about it.

Attacking his son so he fails to kill isn't unforgivable? That seems wrong. Vegeta directly attacked his son.

[jjgp1112]

They were all selfish.

Gohan was selfish for wanting to make Cell suffer.

Kuririn was selfish for wanting to spare 18 for love.

Vegeta was selfish for wanting to fight Cell in his perfect form.

The point is that they all have done questionable things for selfish reasons that resulted in terrible consequences. No one is going to hold something like that against Vegeta. It's not some kind of unforgivable act.

They're not in nearly the same category of selfish, though. Gohan and Krillin's decisions were short-sighted and emotional, Vegeta actively helped Cell out.

Gohan got too caught up in the moment while Krillin didn't think stopping Cell was worth killing someone.

On the other hand, Vegeta just wanted to stroke his ego and couldn't have cared less what happened to anybody else.

I think anybody with common sense would know who to forgive more. Somebody getting too consumed with anger (and not expecting their opponent's rage quit to be so catastrophic) or somebody being too soft to make the tough decisions aren't the damning revelations of character that Vegeta's mistakes are.

You gotta stop trying so hard to play Devil's Advocate.

[MyVisionity]

Attacking his son so he fails to kill isn't unforgivable? That seems wrong. Vegeta directly attacked his son.

No, it's not unforgivable. Attacking your own son is not the worst thing in the world. And Vegeta plays by different rules to begin with anyhow. He's a Saiyan.

They're not in nearly the same category of selfish, though. Gohan and Krillin's decisions were short-sighted and emotional, Vegeta actively helped Cell out.

I think anybody with common sense would know who to forgive more. Somebody getting too consumed with anger (and not expecting their opponent's rage quit to be so catastrophic) or somebody being too soft to make the tough decisions aren't the damning revelations of character that Vegeta's mistakes are.

Of course they aren't the same level of selfish. It's just that Vegeta's mistake, while worse, isn't so terrible that any of them would stop associating with him. Especially when everyone else there made bad mistakes in that saga. And when so many of them were evil themselves in the past.

[PurestEvil]

Attacking his son so he fails to kill isn't unforgivable? That seems wrong. Vegeta directly attacked his son.

No, it's not unforgivable. Attacking your own son is not the worst thing in the world. And Vegeta plays by different rules to begin with anyhow. He's a Saiyan.

I dunno, the fact that Vegeta attacked his son just so Cell could get the Perfect form is pretty damning towards him.

[MyVisionity]

I dunno, the fact that Vegeta attacked his son just so Cell could get the Perfect form is pretty damning towards him.

Damning? It's not like he tried to kill Trunks or anything. They're both warriors, and Trunks is not a child. The father/son relationship only means but so much. Vegeta had already proven earlier in the saga that he wasn't above attacking his own son if he got in his way.

"Just so Cell could get the perfect form..."? To Vegeta this meant everything. His Saiyan pride and lust for battle wouldn't accept anything less.

The only part about it that makes Vegeta look bad is the fact that he was willing to potentially allow for the Earth and its people to be destroyed for the sake of fighting Cell at full power.

[jjgp1112]

Attacking your own ally regardless of familial relationship is a bad look either way you slice it and no, that "They're warriors" stuff doesn't make anymore sense than it did the last time you argued it.

[MyVisionity]

Attacking your own ally regardless of familial relationship is a bad look either way you slice it and no, that "They're warriors" stuff doesn't make anymore sense than it did the last time you argued it.

In that moment, Trunks wasn't Vegeta's ally. He was getting in the way of Cell becoming Perfect, which was Vegeta's objective.

They are warriors, meaning that this is the language they speak. The language of combat. And that means giving and receiving strikes and blows.

Even if it does look bad, so what? Nobody is going to hold something that minor against Vegeta. Not those characters, not in their world.

[jjgp1112]

I dunno about you, but if a guy is willing to switch sides on you depending on what's convenient to him on any given moment...then he's probably an untrustworthy guy who doesn't deserve the chances he was given, which is the premise of this thread

[Lukmendes]

Man, I like Vegeta, but the downplaying of his actions here is questionable.

Androids saga only happened to begin with because most characters were too much fight junkies to solve this the smart way, they were all being selfish assholes willing to risk everyone under the mentality of "I got this".

And even then, Vegeta is still far worse than everyone else in there, while everyone else was trying to prevent Gero from awakening 17 and 18, Vegeta decided he wants to fight them, Krillin got a dumb crush on 18 and chose to not use the remote on her, because he didn't want her to die, Gohan kept delaying killing Cell because he wanted to make Cell suffer, and then there's Vegeta, who went out of his way to let Cell absorb 18, to the point he attacked Trunks, just so he could prove he has a bigger dick than Cell.

It was generally agreed among everyone that letting Cell absorb the androids was a bad idea, but Vegeta went against everyone and actually fucking helped Cell to do so, he was being an evil asshole, and everyone else was understandably pissed at him for doing so, it didn't last for long because DB characters are over forgiving, but the way Vegeta got in the way still annoyed everyone, and made him the most unreliable character on the cast.

[jjgp1112]

Man, I like Vegeta, but the downplaying of his actions here is questionable.

Androids saga only happened to begin with because most characters were too much fight junkies to solve this the smart way, they were all being selfish assholes willing to risk everyone under the mentality of "I got this".

And even then, Vegeta is still far worse than everyone else in there, while everyone else was trying to prevent Gero from awakening 17 and 18, Vegeta decided he wants to fight them, Krillin got a dumb crush on 18 and chose to not use the remote on her, because he didn't want her to die, Gohan kept delaying killing Cell because he wanted to make Cell suffer, and then there's Vegeta, who went out of his way to let Cell absorb 18, to the point he attacked Trunks, just so he could prove he has a bigger dick than Cell.

It was generally agreed among everyone that letting Cell absorb the androids was a bad idea, but Vegeta went against everyone and actually fucking helped Cell to do so, he was being an evil asshole, and everyone else was understandably pissed at him for doing so, it didn't last for long because DB characters are over forgiving, but the way Vegeta got in the way still annoyed everyone, and made him the most unreliable character on the cast.

Right - like nobody's excuses Gohan and Krillin's mistakes. But their mistakes are actually things the average person can empathize with. Taking a liking to somebody and not wanting their blood on their hands even if it might worsen the situation? I think 99.9% of us would do the same thing in his shoes. Getting so angry your judgment crumbles and you put vengeance before reason? We've all been there.

But encouraging the other side to make things worse because that's more exciting to you and attacking anyone who doesn't want to abide by your ego-stroking wish? Nope. We're not gonna justify that.

[MyVisionity]

Yeah, so Vegeta did some bad things and was unpredictable. Again, what's it matter at the end of the day? He's still a powerful ally, albeit an untrustworthy one during the Cell Saga. He's still the father of Bulma's child. He's not actively threatening evil. No one is going to turn their backs on him.

[Lukmendes]

Right - like nobody's excuses Gohan and Krillin's mistakes. But their mistakes are actually things the average person can empathize with. Taking a liking to somebody and not wanting their blood on their hands even if it might worsen the situation? I think 99.9% of us would do the same thing in his shoes. Getting so angry your judgment crumbles and you put vengeance before reason? We've all been there.

But encouraging the other side to make things worse because that's more exciting to you and attacking anyone who doesn't want to abide by your ego-stroking wish? Nope. We're not gonna justify that.

Even if the mistakes Krillin and Gohan made weren't relatable, the big thing is how the characters went about it, Krillin, while it's stupid he speedran falling in love with some chick he talked for 12 seconds, he still has good intentions in not wanting her to die, and Gohan, while I can't call him torturing Cell a good intention, one can make a point that Cell deserves to suffer for killing so many, and was planning to kill even more.

Vegeta, his selfishness is at best comparable to Goku's, because Goku himself didn't want Vegeta to be killed just so he can fight Vegeta later, which is a really horrible and selfish decision considering all the bullshit Vegeta just had done, and as far as they all knew Vegeta wouldn't change, even then, as bad as Goku is, Goku just wouldn't attack someone else if they disagreed, because if Goku was as bad as Vegeta back then, he would've attacked Krillin for trying to kill Vegeta.

So yeah, there is a lot of selfishness on the cast, and Vegeta is still the worst one because of the way he goes about it, between Cell saga and Buu saga, when he is selfish he'll directly hurt anyone else if it means he can get what he wants.

Yeah, so Vegeta did some bad things and was unpredictable. Again, what's it matter at the end of the day?

It's at the very least, very stressful to be around someone who just makes shit worse by existing.

He's still a powerful ally, albeit an untrustworthy one during the Cell Saga.

If he's untrustworthy he's not much of an ally, Krillin even says that using androids shit can be a good idea to keep Vegeta busy for now.

He's still the father of Bulma's child.

He didn't care about Bulma or Trunks at first to the point he made no effort to save them when Gero attacked them.

He's not actively threatening evil.

He made it clear more than once that when androids shit is done with he'll kill Goku.

No one is going to turn their backs on him.

They may not do so but it's made clear how much he pisses them off even when he's not actively getting in the way.

[MrGohanks]

Krillin wanted to give C18 a chance to live, there is nothing wrong with that. Krillin saw that C18 was scared. That isn't evil. However Krillin didn't help Cell get his perfect form.

Gohan wanting to get revenge by making Cell suffer is wrong. However Gohan didn't help Cell.


Vegeta oh Vegeta he helps Cell by letting him go and Vegeta even goes as far as become Cell body guard, so if anyone attack him, Vegeta attacks them back.
Trunks is Vegeta son, yet he cared more about Cell words than his son words.
So yes Vegeta helped Cell get his perfect form and protected Cell until he got his perfect form.

Krillin Did help Cell by choosing to destroy the remote device. By letting 18 live, Krillin helped Cell become Perfect.

Gohan also basically helped Cell by not just killing him right away, giving Cell enough time to think of an exit strategy

You can't be serious, Gohan and Krillin didn't help Cell, their intention wasn't to help Cell in anyway.

Vegeta he literally agreed to protect Cell and help him gain his perfect form. If Vegeta didn't help Cell, then Future Trunks wouldn't have failed to kill Cell and Cell wouldn't have absorbed C18.

Krillin wanted to protect C18, not have C18 absorbed.
Gohan wanted to make Cell suffer, not have Cell retain his perfect form or blow up the earth.

"Krillin wanted to protect C18, not have C18 absorbed.
Gohan wanted to make Cell suffer, not have Cell retain his perfect form or blow up the earth."

I can't believe you still fail to see how both of these dumb actions helped Cell succeed.

[MyVisionity]

He's still the father of Bulma's child.

He didn't care about Bulma or Trunks at first to the point he made no effort to save them when Gero attacked them.

But Bulma and Trunks care about *him*. And the Z-Soldiers care about Bulma and Trunks. So they ain't gonna just get rid of someone who is extended family.

He's not actively threatening evil.

He made it clear more than once that when androids shit is done with he'll kill Goku.

That's not really evil. He mostly just wants to defeat Goku in battle. Somehow I doubt he cares whether or not Goku is actually killed. Either way, Goku is not some helpless innocent, he's a warrior who can take care of himself.

[Lukmendes]

But Bulma and Trunks care about *him*. And the Z-Soldiers care about Bulma and Trunks. So they ain't gonna just get rid of someone who is extended family.

They're not, but the point is that Vegeta in Cell saga was an evil ass.

That's not really evil. He mostly just wants to defeat Goku in battle.

Are you seriously saying that wanting to kill Goku is not evil?

Somehow I doubt he cares whether or not Goku is actually killed.

(Chapter 366)

Either way, Goku is not some helpless innocent, he's a warrior who can take care of himself.

So what? Just because Goku can defend himself doesn't make Vegeta less evil for wanting to kill him.