Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

I think he is letting it drag cause Toriyama prob doesn’t have an idea yet for the next arc after super hero. I hope whatever he and Toyotaro come up with, it will be fun. This arc has its ups and downs. I wish it was a weekly series, it would drag less.

I doubt that since Moro was basically Toyo's arc and there is nothing suggesting that Toyo will even time-skip to the timeframe to Super Hero.

It's also tiresome that every time there's pacing issues with the manga people put it on Toriyama. Like people were certain that the reason USS was rushed because Toyo was 'pushed' to finished the arc so he could retell the Broly movie, only for it not to be the case. And people thought this arc will have a rushed ending to sync with Super Hero's release and that sure in heck wasn't true.

[Berserker1921]

I think he is letting it drag cause Toriyama prob doesn’t have an idea yet for the next arc after super hero. I hope whatever he and Toyotaro come up with, it will be fun. This arc has its ups and downs. I wish it was a weekly series, it would drag less.

I doubt that since Moro was basically Toyo's arc and there is nothing suggesting that Toyo will even time-skip to the timeframe to Super Hero.

It's also tiresome that every time there's pacing issues with the manga people put it on Toriyama. Like people were certain that the reason USS was rushed because Toyo was 'pushed' to finished the arc so he could retell the Broly movie, only for it not to be the case. And people thought this arc will have a rushed ending to sync with Super Hero's release and that sure in heck wasn't true.

But remember everything has to be approved by Toriyama. Every change to the story or adding anything. It has to have his say so. Same thing with character designs. Toyotaro can write a full story. But if Toriyama doesn’t like elements, like character designs. The kid is held back and the story is delayed more.

Toriyama was the one that wanted the Heeters in the story. Apparently Toyotaro just wanted to use Granolah.

I am sure they have an idea. But I am sure they are waiting on Toriyama to make corrections or additions to the plot and characters.

[Skar]

But as is, fights won’t have any tension as long as these forms are around with these gimmicks. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing: this is supposedly peace time.

That's a good point. It definitely feels like an endgame ability and probably why Toriyama hasn't had Goku master it yet. I think it was a mistake for Toyotaro to have Goku to learn to use it at will in the Moro arc. It would've worked to have Goku only learn to use Omen at will and leave UI for whenever Toriyama decides to use it again.

I'm still confused why Toriyama's involvement in the manga these last two arcs. During all the times he checks the manga and discusses ideas with Toyotaro, he hasn't shared what he planned to do with UI? I don't think he had a specific plan in mind but at least explaining how he intended the form to work. I really hope the next arc is from another Toriyama outline and takes place after Super Hero.

[BWri]

Oh, and what's the deal with Granola? wasn't this his arc? he's been out of comission since january.

Seems like he's been Trunks'd.

[HeroR]

I think he is letting it drag cause Toriyama prob doesn’t have an idea yet for the next arc after super hero. I hope whatever he and Toyotaro come up with, it will be fun. This arc has its ups and downs. I wish it was a weekly series, it would drag less.

I doubt that since Moro was basically Toyo's arc and there is nothing suggesting that Toyo will even time-skip to the timeframe to Super Hero.

It's also tiresome that every time there's pacing issues with the manga people put it on Toriyama. Like people were certain that the reason USS was rushed because Toyo was 'pushed' to finished the arc so he could retell the Broly movie, only for it not to be the case. And people thought this arc will have a rushed ending to sync with Super Hero's release and that sure in heck wasn't true.

But remember everything has to be approved by Toriyama. Every change to the story or adding anything. It has to have his say so. Same thing with character designs. Toyotaro can write a full story. But if Toriyama doesn’t like elements, like character designs. The kid is held back and the story is delayed more.

Toriyama was the one that wanted the Heeters in the story. Apparently Toyotaro just wanted to use Granolah.

I am sure they have an idea. But I am sure they are waiting on Toriyama to make corrections or additions to the plot and characters.

It's called being an editor. Toriyama had to rewrite the entire Android Saga because his editor hated his villains.

And Toriyama created the Heeters during the drafting process. Not when the story was in-progress.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Vegeta: “Keep damaging me! It’ll only make me stronger!!”
5 minutes later…
Vegeta: “HAHA! I’ve finally taken enough damage to overpower y-“ *passes out*

Fuck sake man.

[Aizamasu]

I’ve been a fan of Super’s manga since chapter 1 and I’ve always talked highly about it. I loved the ending of Moro arc and thought it was a perfect portayal of Ultra instinct. But this whole arc and especially this chapter seems to have taken everything that Goku has learned since ToP away since Goku is suddenly back to using Sign and saying it currently fits him better even though we already saw just how inferior Sign was to Ultra instinct against Moro. This isn’t anything like Vegeta’s God-Blue switching against Black which was actually a really great move.

I know others have already said the same things but I really am disappointed in the direction the manga has been going. I really hope the manga can eventually return to the quality it used to have so I can go back to actually looking forward to a new chapter every month.

[Berserker1921]

I doubt that since Moro was basically Toyo's arc and there is nothing suggesting that Toyo will even time-skip to the timeframe to Super Hero.

It's also tiresome that every time there's pacing issues with the manga people put it on Toriyama. Like people were certain that the reason USS was rushed because Toyo was 'pushed' to finished the arc so he could retell the Broly movie, only for it not to be the case. And people thought this arc will have a rushed ending to sync with Super Hero's release and that sure in heck wasn't true.

But remember everything has to be approved by Toriyama. Every change to the story or adding anything. It has to have his say so. Same thing with character designs. Toyotaro can write a full story. But if Toriyama doesn’t like elements, like character designs. The kid is held back and the story is delayed more.

Toriyama was the one that wanted the Heeters in the story. Apparently Toyotaro just wanted to use Granolah.

I am sure they have an idea. But I am sure they are waiting on Toriyama to make corrections or additions to the plot and characters.

It's called being an editor. Toriyama had to rewrite the entire Android Saga because his editor hated his villains.

And Toriyama created the Heeters during the drafting process. Not when the story was in-progress.

Still that said. You think the Heeters are worth it to this story? Or do you think the whole conflict between gas and the heroes going on for too long.

[nineko]

Can we use the Cerealian dragon balls to wish for this arc to be over soon?

[Jiren The Alpha]

Can we use the Cerealian dragon balls to wish for this arc to be over soon?

You need the Super Dragon Balls for that one

[Nistarkail]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 85:

- Some really nice fight choreography

- Hang on a second... so with Ultra Instinct Sign, Goku is more powerful in that form than Mastered Ultra Instinct since he's not constrained by keeping emotions calm? That makes no fucking sense at all with what has been seen of Ultra Instinct in the manga. Goku used Ultra Instinct Sign and tried to max out his power output with that form against Moro in the previous arc and couldn't beat him since it was weaker than Mastered Ultra Instinct.

- What the hell is the endgame with Ultra Ego? It hasn't really done anything for Vegeta as a character or had any significant impact on the development of the plot. All Vegeta has done this whole arc when using Ultra Ego is get his ass stomped into the dirt, get back up, start mouthing off, and then get wrecked again. What good is all the strength Ultra Ego can provide if you have to obtain it through an ass beating that your body can’t handle?

- This chapter really highlighted the major problem when you have Goku and Vegeta be the only characters of relevance -- there's little to no room for another meaningful powerup or strategy to be developed once a fight starts because there's no secondary narrative to provide the support for that alternative. In the original manga, when Toriyama would be sideling characters he would always make replace them with new ones to ensure the roster was wide enough that the narrative had the opportunity to pull in characters from offscreen and with their own power-ups or different techniques so that the story wouldn't feel reliant on one character (or two at best) to drive the plot and create a sense of tedium or stagnation repeatedly stacked on a single character. Dragon Ball Super at this stage feels like an American comic book -- because there is no growth or sense of progression beyond a surface level.

- Man... every new transformation Gas gets is somehow uglier than the previous one.

- The fight is going in circles. Ultra Instinct Sign made Goku stronger than Gas when it’s literally an incomplete and weaker version of Mastered Ultra Instinct which Goku was previously using to fight Gas with and was getting his ass kicked when using it. I'm not really a power scaling guy but... what? This makes no goddamn sense.

- Remember Granolah, guys? Anyone? Anyone? *sigh* That poor fucker. Benched in his own arc.

- In the end... nothing really happened that the last dozen chapters haven't already done before.

Overall thoughts... next chapter, please.

I hope that this new "Rafiki-Gas" will be consumed from his same rage once he stops to power-up The power drove him insane into his mind, but he's still a child with a bipolar tendency to act as a bully-bullied at same time.

Aside this, honestly I get a good vibe when Elec and Goku speak each other for the first time. We see villains as Zamasu or Moro that have specific knowledge about magic and universe, but both of them never had a B-Plan or a strategic mind. So, once Elec will show his true strength, I'm sure that the first arc will end with some deceptive strategy.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

With the amount of story beats there are in this arc and how repetitive it’s been, this arc should have wrapped up like 6 months ago. It just doesn’t have enough content to justify being dragged out for this long.

This whole arc has just been Goku, Vegeta, Granolah and Gas beating the shit out of each other for a year and a half with some Bardock action sprinkled throughout it. Like at least the Moro arc changed its location and had breaks in the story. At least it had fights that involved other characters.

The only thing I genuinely loved in this arc was Vegeta vs Granolah. That was some of my favourite action and writing in all of Super. I hope we can see it animated one day.

But yeah… this arc is dragging its feet. I honestly don’t want to follow it month to month anymore and would much rather just read the rest of it when the arc finally finishes. I haven’t done that since the Future Trunks arc. I’m tired of anticipating it every month, only to be disappointed that the story hasn’t progressed much.

[Goku9001]

I think the chapter was relatively good, but it suffers the same issue that has been prevalent in that not enough happens, so the arc drags on. Some thoughts here.

- There's nothing meaningful behind Gas' interaction between both Goku and Vegeta other than to serve as an obstacle for the both of them. Goku even makes it clear that the Heeters could back out at any given moment making it clear that Goku isn't necessarily invested in the conflict. I found Vegeta's interactions with Granola to be more meaningful because they were personal. Likewise, there's some history between Gas and Granolah in which Gas feels neglected because Granolah is filling the role for Elec that Gas believes that should be his. The story should have focused on the dynamic between Granolah and Gas and eventually tied it into something greater. Instead, the story is dragging Gas along for as long as possible with the same, predictable twists. The only thing meaningful here is the whole Bardock thing and Goku doesn't really seem personally invested in it.

- Fight choreography was really good. There was a solid exchange of blows that highlight Goku's superiority and newfound fighting style and I enjoyed how it culminated in a clash between Goku's evasive abilities and Gas' original techniques which highlights the origins of both their respective abilities. The flip over Gas' ball and chain so that he could swing the ball back at Gas was pretty slick. The fight was quick and straight to the point.

- Vegeta embracing Ultra Ego isn't really made clear but I like the subtle implication here. Rather than thinking about the pain inflicted prior to receiving each blow, Vegeta embraces it and charges in headfirst. Vegeta makes it clear when he willingly provokes Gas into attacking him and deliberately attempts to strike Gas before his body completely collapses on him. I think the implication here is that Vegeta is merely thinking about winning and ignoring the damage he is experiencing/could be experiencing from each attack.

- I do like how Toyotaro is subverting our expectations of how a higher battle power can be obtained even whilst using an inferior form. Goku's reliance on Omen does contradict what we see in Moro where forgoing the tranquility of the form held him back. Reigning in his emotions allowed him to perfect Ultra Instinct which led to much greater power. It's confusing but it still maintains the hierarchical power structure behind Goku's transformations. We should still come to expect the Silver-haired form to be when Ultra Instinct is at its best once he can apply his attuned Saiyan pride to that form.

- "There won't be a next time for Gas". Sounds like Gas' lifeforce is at the brink of death. This will be the final battle.

Solid chapter overall. I'm hoping the plot evolves to reveal Elec's gameplan at this point.

[HeroR]

But remember everything has to be approved by Toriyama. Every change to the story or adding anything. It has to have his say so. Same thing with character designs. Toyotaro can write a full story. But if Toriyama doesn’t like elements, like character designs. The kid is held back and the story is delayed more.

Toriyama was the one that wanted the Heeters in the story. Apparently Toyotaro just wanted to use Granolah.

I am sure they have an idea. But I am sure they are waiting on Toriyama to make corrections or additions to the plot and characters.

It's called being an editor. Toriyama had to rewrite the entire Android Saga because his editor hated his villains.

And Toriyama created the Heeters during the drafting process. Not when the story was in-progress.

Still that said. You think the Heeters are worth it to this story? Or do you think the whole conflict between gas and the heroes going on for too long.

Hard to say since I have clue how Toyo’s original draft went. Like there was no Dragon Balls before Toriyama put them in, so how did Granaloh become so strong in Toyo’s original story.

[ChronoTwigger]

It's bad written, and probably the month by month schedule doesn't help.

Goku and Vegeta got a boost from Bardack. Think a videogame buff. "Sayan Pride is a power buff!"
BUT Goku find that the buff cannot be used in no emotional state as UI.
So he revert back to Omen, that can use a bit of emotions, and apply the buff.

OMEN+ BARDACK BUFF > UI.

The difference with Moro is he didn't collected the Bardack buff...

That's what happened, is not that Omen magically >> UI. Is the Bardack buff that's acting on the sayans.
It's badly written and the whole thing is about Bardack telling "ok, don't forget you're a sayan, your pride act as a power buff". "Oh, right!", said Vegeta,"Now I have my answer!" and go 'full pride mode'.

It should have been WAAAAAY more better if Toyo associated some special effect to Sayan Pride Booster (flames, discharges, whatever) to state the effect of the boost, *name it* so people can identify it, and show that UI loose the boost- to keep it, use a lower, emotional form.

The whole thing tied up to the 'roots' theme and 'being sayan doesn't make you evil' narrative. Being an aware sayan make you stronger than refuse it. That was the story since the start, underlined a lot of times by Granolah/Gas/Beerus.

That clarified, the whole thing is an example of a bad written story, as you don't mind about clarity of the concepts you're trying to expose - sparse tenses cannot sustain the weight of narrative. "But the character said *this word* 20 pages ago" is just a sign you're rushing.

[Koitsukai]

At this pace, I don't think I'll ever get to know what the hell are those Cerelian DBs, a set of two spheres and broken as fuck.

The story doesn't need to explain this to tell an interesting story, sure, but you can't just pull out of your ass the most broken gimmick in the dbverse (even the SDB need a year to recharge and you need seven of them), exploit it until it gets boring, without a single word and get away with it.
And of course they should be destroyed or something after this, hopefully when the arc wraps (probably around september 2029) something will be said about them.

[Skar]

I know others have already said the same things but I really am disappointed in the direction the manga has been going. I really hope the manga can eventually return to the quality it used to have so I can go back to actually looking forward to a new chapter every month.

I feel the same way and hope it returns to its previous quality. In the first few arcs, I only felt some scenes were rushed but thought the pacing was fitting for how little source material there was to adapt. I doublechecked and this arc is already longer than the manga ToP and it's been around 13 chapters of just the battle against Granolah then Gas. That's over 500 pages which I believe is longer than the battle against Freeza from his first form to Namek's destruction.

I'm just really confused why the manga slowed down so much and feels like there's a lot of filler that could be removed without affecting the story. I hope whatever the cause won't affect the next arc. At least we have confirmation the next one is starting this year so that leaves at most five chapters for the Granolah arc.

[kemuri07]

I think he is letting it drag cause Toriyama prob doesn’t have an idea yet for the next arc after super hero. I hope whatever he and Toyotaro come up with, it will be fun. This arc has its ups and downs. I wish it was a weekly series, it would drag less.

I doubt that since Moro was basically Toyo's arc and there is nothing suggesting that Toyo will even time-skip to the timeframe to Super Hero.

It's also tiresome that every time there's pacing issues with the manga people put it on Toriyama. Like people were certain that the reason USS was rushed because Toyo was 'pushed' to finished the arc so he could retell the Broly movie, only for it not to be the case. And people thought this arc will have a rushed ending to sync with Super Hero's release and that sure in heck wasn't true.

But remember everything has to be approved by Toriyama. Every change to the story or adding anything. It has to have his say so. Same thing with character designs. Toyotaro can write a full story. But if Toriyama doesn’t like elements, like character designs. The kid is held back and the story is delayed more.

Toriyama was the one that wanted the Heeters in the story. Apparently Toyotaro just wanted to use Granolah.

I am sure they have an idea. But I am sure they are waiting on Toriyama to make corrections or additions to the plot and characters.

This is important. I say this all the time: Toriyama has nothing left to prove after DB-DBZ. But maaaaan.....I don't care for this narrative some people are trying to put that positions this conflict between Toei, Toyo, and Toriyama. Toriyama absolutely signs off on this stuff and we all know the man can do bad all by himself if DB0 and saiyan Mitochloreans are any indication. Whatever faults are with Super, Toriyama absolutely shares some of that blame.

[OrangeBanana]

It seems that Toyo hasn't yet learned how to pace his stories correctly in terms of having bursts of action spaced out evenly in an arc, and making sure that each chapter has a meaningful amount of substance to leave a impact on the reader so the storytelling doesn't feel stagnant. Personally the way I would've improved this arc is to cut down on the filler fighting which doesn't go anywhere half the time. The fights also lack any actual drama to them, Gas is a villain with very little character and what character he has lacks sufficient depth to make him compelling enough for the reader to care about his conflict with Goku and Vegeta. Granola was a great antagonist and had this arc been simply limited to him seeking vengeance and falling slowly into that rabbit hole as he seeks more and more power only to be utterly defeated in the end and regret it all, then it would've been a total blast. But, what we have here is a pile of wasted potential for what could've been and should've been a real banger of an arc. Next time I hope Toyo takes a month's break and sits down to outline the arc, and tinker with it to make sure it hits all the right notes, he can definitely do it.

[LightBing]

The dragging I believe is Toyotarõ's own doing. It was already present in the Moro arc, people were already complaining then.
This arc just took it to another extreme and didn't offer the small buffer of Piccolo and the Earthlings having a small role.

Super needs a rewrite altogether. It's clear as day that the original intention of reaching Beerus became muddied with bad writing more concerned with keeping the train going.

Even when Toriyama was writing Dragon Ball weekly, not thinking much ahead. There was progression: goals were reached, new ones acquired, characters grew or got left behind.

Beerus is a never reaching goal, UI apparently is following the same path. We're stuck in the lost decade where everything and nothing happens.

Who's to blame? Everyone probably. Toriyama unfortunately is way too laid back to bring closure the plot opportunities raised in BoG. He probably doesn't have the same drive that got him to go against his editor and make Goku an adult.

Anyway just conjecture, since I don't know anything about how the franchise is handled behind closed doors. One thing I'm pretty sure, money is the motivation and good writing isn't even close to a concern.