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In the hopes that the narrative will get better.
I'd like to see what DB does with an elusive villain. We haven't really had that before. I'd like to see a villain last for maybe 2 or 3 arcs before getting their comeuppance.Miracles wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:52 pm With that said, Toyotaro has potential with Elec to spice things up. I know some want the arc just to wrap up but he has a chance to end well.
tfw that vilalin turns out to be 7-3 (who's probably gonna survive this arc onto the next)BWri wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:51 am I'd like to see what DB does with an elusive villain. We haven't really had that before. I'd like to see a villain last for maybe 2 or 3 arcs before getting their comeuppance.
As much as I'm looking forward to the next part of 7-3's story thread, that's not really what I'm referring to. I'm hoping its a more active antagonist and hopefully one with some charisma. They could have done something like this with Frieza or Champa previously, Frieza in particular, but he's mostly just a background character after DBS: Broly. And Champa's scheme was all just to setup a gag/heartwarming moment. Was hoping for something more sinister/long term from him back in the day.Xeogran wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:44 amtfw that vilalin turns out to be 7-3 (who's probably gonna survive this arc onto the next)BWri wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:51 am I'd like to see what DB does with an elusive villain. We haven't really had that before. I'd like to see a villain last for maybe 2 or 3 arcs before getting their comeuppance.
I would put it a different way. The anime attempted to deliver on narrative progression, but it failed at presenting it in a satisfying (integrated, consistent, tonally-appropriate, etc.) way. This is especially apparent when compared to the same arcs of the manga. On the other hand, we could regularly expect at least one or two cool cuts of fighting animation per episode.LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm Many people criticised the anime for over-emphasising ephemeral action over meaningful narrative progression; I feel that the manga is really no different at all in this regard, at this point anyway.
I'm not sure if you're referring to me in this quote, but since others have expressed a similar view toward me, I will respond.LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm While I certainly appreciate that many people genuinely enjoy the manga currently and want to liven up the discourse, some vocal loyalists are perhaps too keen to turn their fondness for the manga as a cudgel to beat dissenters with, which only causes the discussion to grind to a halt (not unlike the arc's plotting). Some of the strident attempts to make these "redemptive readings" of the arc, compelling and persuasive as they can be at their best, do tend to come across as slightly disingenuous/contrarian at their worst. At the end of the day, if you're not willing to hear out someone's criticisms or give any ground to their position whatsoever, all that does is piss them off. No matter how persuasive you think you're being and no matter how much hidden artistic merit you think something has, you can't force another dude to like it.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm On the same token, I'm really not a fan of this forced division between the Manga Scrutinisers and the "Manga Riders", as that guy with the Super-Baby-Bogdanoff-2 profile picture put it.
While I've been mostly fine with the fights every chapter & feel there's generally been a good (or at least) amount of meaningful story progression/characterisation in each one amongst the fighting, I can understand (despite not fully agreeing) the "fighting for the sake of fighting" complaining/perception lobbed at the arc. It's especially noticeable that the standard amount of chapters for each individual fight has bumped up to 2 (90 pages overall, which in the grand scheme of a monthly manga, is a lot) from 1 (like the recent chapter & most previous arcs' ones). As a side note, I'm generally wary of attributing deficiencies in/criticisms of the writing (like padding) to/as being mandated by management/editors, like shadowy higher power scapegoats, since it almost feels like deflecting critique from those directly responsible for the manga i.e. Toyotaro & Toriyama, who for one (or two) have never really brought them up in interviews about the manga's production/arcs' planning & writing (compared to say, much of what we know about Toriyama and his editors during DB), & the Moro arc (where we assume Toyo generally had free reign) is evidence of filler action/fights in close to every chapter prior to the Granolah arc.batistabus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 pmI would put it a different way. The anime attempted to deliver on narrative progression, but it failed at presenting it in a satisfying (integrated, consistent, tonally-appropriate, etc.) way. This is especially apparent when compared to the same arcs of the manga. On the other hand, we could regularly expect at least one or two cool cuts of fighting animation per episode.LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm Many people criticised the anime for over-emphasising ephemeral action over meaningful narrative progression; I feel that the manga is really no different at all in this regard, at this point anyway.
As for how that criticism applies to this arc...there's certainly a lot of fighting. More than I would like, maybe. To me, it feels like padding mandated by the higher-ups at V-Jump. I've found the action entertaining, and I don't think it comes at the expense of the narrative - except in the form of month-to-month pacing. Even then, I've enjoyed every chapter and looked forward to the next.
I agree with most of this, I do get a sense that something must have changed editorially behind the scenes, which does interest me. Though as Shorty said, there’s no way of knowing for sure yet. I definitely agree that Toyotaro’s earlier renditions of Toriyama’s story outlines were mostly far more narratively satisfying in the manga. Funnily enough, I was just reading the chapter where Beerus destroys Zamasu, it’s so cleverly structured from start to finish. The build-up to Future Zamasu’s appearance after the parallel dialogue between Beerus/Zamasu and Vegeta/Black was masterful.batistabus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 pmI would put it a different way. The anime attempted to deliver on narrative progression, but it failed at presenting it in a satisfying (integrated, consistent, tonally-appropriate, etc.) way. This is especially apparent when compared to the same arcs of the manga. On the other hand, we could regularly expect at least one or two cool cuts of fighting animation per episode.LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm Many people criticised the anime for over-emphasising ephemeral action over meaningful narrative progression; I feel that the manga is really no different at all in this regard, at this point anyway.
As for how that criticism applies to this arc...there's certainly a lot of fighting. More than I would like, maybe. To me, it feels like padding mandated by the higher-ups at V-Jump. I've found the action entertaining, and I don't think it comes at the expense of the narrative - except in the form of month-to-month pacing. Even then, I've enjoyed every chapter and looked forward to the next.
I never meant to imply that anyone who praises the arc should have to apologise or downplay themselves. If anyone feels they have to do that, that’s definitely a problem. No specific one person was meant to be “targeted” by that part or any part of my rant there. It’s more about the generally divisive vibe on this side of the forum at the moment (tbh, you generally conduct yourself politely and modestly so I apologise if you did feel targeted, that definitely wasn’t my intention).I'm not sure if you're referring to me in this quote, but since others have expressed a similar view toward me, I will respond.
Nobody should apologize for expressing why they like this arc, manga, or anything else related to Dragon Ball here. Personally, I will not concede to arguments I don't think are well-founded simply to avoid being labeled as biased. As for the idea of beating others over the head with my opinion, I try my best to back off when I feel that the conversation has become unproductive, and I choose my battles. Similarly, it's entirely possible for there to be an impassioned debate between people who don't agree but still respect each other.
I express my point of view because I want to share my passion for Dragon Ball. I am a Dragon Ball fan on a Dragon Ball fan site. If my comments stand out among the disproportionate negativity, it's because that's how I genuinely feel, and I'm okay with that. On a similar note, if I wasn't online, I would not be aware of the amount of criticism leveled at this story.
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There's been some discussion here regarding the "exhausting" negativity of this thread. Some users have expressed concern about how other users might be hesitant to express themselves because of this. If you want to steer the conversation in a certain direction, give it a shot. You don't have to respond to everyone who quotes you. This forum is big enough for multiple conversations, so we should all just engage with what we want. Let the mods sort out the rest.
I’m also not a big fan of how nearly every fight has been extended to two or more chapters, I’ve rarely found it to be justified.
Agreed, that's really good stuff.LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:18 am Funnily enough, I was just reading the chapter where Beerus destroys Zamasu, it’s so cleverly structured from start to finish. The build-up to Future Zamasu’s appearance after the parallel dialogue between Beerus/Zamasu and Vegeta/Black was masterful.
I agree with this sentiment. I'm all for greater patience and understanding. On the other hand, I think many of us are drawn to forums (instead of social media, for example) because we're interested in conversation and can be convinced. I've changed my mind on plenty of things (the dub, music, animation, etc.) because of conversations I've had on these forums. In those cases, my foundation for holding a previous opinion was "debunked", and for better or worse, not always in a civil manner. If someone claims to dislike something, but is invested enough to spend hours discussing it every month, they probably like it more than they're letting on. So if someone claims they don't like something for "x" reason, but they can be shown to view it another way, they might.What personally annoys me a bit is when it becomes less about even-handed discussion and giving one’s own opinions, and more about trying to “debunk” the opinions of the other party without really addressing what they’re saying, which I believe is why the tone of these threads has become more combative.
I don't think this accurately represents the balance of criticism at all, personally. The treatment of Toyotaro by "hardcore" fans, here and across the internet, has been uncharitable (to put it generously) since the start of the DBS manga. One of the best examples was Trunks' healing powers; fans were up in arms at Toyo for "plot holes" and incompetence" before the reveal. The same thing happened before Merus was reveal to be an angel. I can think of very few instances of people admitting they overreacted in those circumstances, although the "wait until the chapter actually comes out" discourse on Twitter has definitely improved.The idea that to be a TRUE CRITIC, you have to artificially squeeze as much merit and themes from an artwork as possible purely for the sake of “balance” — even if you think the work itself is complete crap — is a rather narrow-minded view of literary criticism, IMO.
Tellingly, I noticed that much of the thematic discussion of this arc boiled down to speculation of what might happen to support their authoritatively-written theories rather than what was actually going on in the month-to-month story. And nearly every time, these theories were outright disproven or completely off the mark.
Hey hey, LFH73, feeling is mutual.LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:18 am Also, I don’t think we’ve been formally introduced Shorty but nice to meet you anyway.
Interesting, enlightened post. Here is an accompanying picture you could add to go along with it for better comprehension.ChronoTwigger wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:55 am I think there's something wrong when the debate go from criticizing the subject to criticize the critics on the subject.
In the context of tabletop RPG we reached the peak of this trend. You *cannot say* that a product is bad, as someone can be hurted by this. Here there's a similar derange, and I assure you that most of this come from a wrong, new netiquette trend.
One should be grown enough to understand two facts: the world is not your comfort zone, and freedom stop when another individual freedom begin (even if that area of freedom make you feel "wrong").
There's no way that someone can debate with me and change my idea this manga deranged to a terrible mess, with no content, random stuff and failed writing. If you think this mess is a good piece of manga, I can quote an infinite number of better products, so the logic can be flipped: why you still like and positively comment on this mess when you can read something better?
If someone try to amend the manga by attaching extra values you have to come by going deeper than the author himself, I can quote one part of DBS I liked (Zamasu arc), until I've come with the fact I was adding more by my own metanarrative than the authors did. I was 'figuring out' a better plot - it's like buying a terrible book and write the missing tenses on your own. That qualify the book as a bad thing. Objectively.
If once I thought it was anime schedule, the fact the issue show up again in the manga is to me evident they don't care. No one care. So why I should? And I want for people to notice.
I suspect a number of people is doing exactly that: attaching more value to a story that's good by intent, but poorly narrated to the point the good intent require so much effort to rise that doing *my own fanfiction* will be less costly - and I'm ot even sure the intent was the one I'm comeing with.
My critics are about that. And to me, is quite astounding that people can eat such stuff and didn't perceived the scam behind, the lack of passion, the lazy execution and the overall "they'll eat whatever, so give them whatever" that I can *clearly* see, crystal as the summer sky.
To me, you can pretend more, you should and you're in full right to pretend more.
But if you're satisfied by such poor meal *that's the thing* and none of my words or any other words should never put you in doubt to be *morally wrong*. The critic is about the product, *not you* that like it.
If you do feel morally assaulted by bad critics on a product you like, you're extending your comfort zone to me - and I'm not just a bunch of lines on *your* device, I'm not a system bug on your perfectly fit life, not I'm polarizing anything - I'm just another human being you cannot control, with different perspectives.
So, critics on critics are silly to the point I don't think they're rational at all.
Yeah, I'd like to hope this is the case. Nothing better than having your view changed or changing someone else's.batistabus wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:51 pmI agree with this sentiment. I'm all for greater patience and understanding. On the other hand, I think many of us are drawn to forums (instead of social media, for example) because we're interested in conversation and can be convinced. I've changed my mind on plenty of things (the dub, music, animation, etc.) because of conversations I've had on these forums. In those cases, my foundation for holding a previous opinion was "debunked", and for better or worse, not always in a civil manner. If someone claims to dislike something, but is invested enough to spend hours discussing it every month, they probably like it more than they're letting on. So if someone claims they don't like something for "x" reason, but they can be shown to view it another way, they might.What personally annoys me a bit is when it becomes less about even-handed discussion and giving one’s own opinions, and more about trying to “debunk” the opinions of the other party without really addressing what they’re saying, which I believe is why the tone of these threads has become more combative.
Yeah, people used to be extremely harsh on Toyotaro, I also think the trolls and haters have generally died down across this forum and social media. People moaning about Merus was especially dumb. However, there's a thin line between the mindless haters and the honest critics, the latter of whom are not (always) being uncharitable or unreasonable in their assessments of the manga, vitriolic as they can be. I don't think it's fair to dismiss them just because the positive readings have also been dismissed in the past.I don't think this accurately represents the balance of criticism at all, personally. The treatment of Toyotaro by "hardcore" fans, here and across the internet, has been uncharitable (to put it generously) since the start of the DBS manga. One of the best examples was Trunks' healing powers; fans were up in arms at Toyo for "plot holes" and incompetence" before the reveal. The same thing happened before Merus was reveal to be an angel. I can think of very few instances of people admitting they overreacted in those circumstances, although the "wait until the chapter actually comes out" discourse on Twitter has definitely improved.
As for excited speculation about where the story may lead...let me put it this way. Anyone commenting with certainty about where the story will go before it's over (and especially when it's just starting) is going to be wrong. Dragon Ball - even Super - is hard to predict. That's what makes it fun. Still, if you're eagerly anticipating the next part of the story, it can be fun to guess how things might unfold. I'd rather read that than unfounded pessimism; at least wait until the story is resolved before complaining about things that haven't happened. In both cases, anyone engaging should dial down the certainty, but I don't think these are equal offenses.
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:04 pm Alas, we are in the Dragon Ball Super manga chapter discussion thread having read up to the 86th chapter of Dragon Ball Super. Tis an unfortunate fate indeed for those who either liked/positively commented on something like this instead of (reading) something better, or those who disliked/negatively commented on something like this instead of (reading) something better. Or worse, if you're into that.
First time I've heard the manga ToP called "magic". Usually it gets lambasted. Rightly so imo. I didnt like the manga or anime ToP. Its when they gave up entirely on scaling and making sense in general.TKA wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:44 amIn the hopes that the narrative will get better.
It's not rocket surgery here. We enjoyed the manga from the first tournament until the end of the tournament of power. That's like 6 years, man. Now we see it dipping and not being enjoyable, but we want it to be again so we keep reading, hoping it will recapture that magic.
Cool.TBMx wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:01 am
First time I've heard the manga ToP called "magic". Usually it gets lambasted. Rightly so imo. I didnt like the manga or anime ToP.
I don't give a shit about the power level community and their inability to understand context, or storytelling. Can't speak for the anime, but the manga had nothing egregious.Its when they gave up entirely on scaling and making sense in general.
Gohan drawing Kefla after Kale by herself nearly ringed out SSB Goku. And despite Vados saying Kefla may be unmatched at the tournament. Making an angel look stupid cos of Gohans random asspull is pretty egregious, as she said this after witnessing Gokus full power MSSB attempt on Jiren.TKA wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:56 amCool.TBMx wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:01 am
First time I've heard the manga ToP called "magic". Usually it gets lambasted. Rightly so imo. I didnt like the manga or anime ToP.
I don't give a shit about the power level community and their inability to understand context, or storytelling. Can't speak for the anime, but the manga had nothing egregious.Its when they gave up entirely on scaling and making sense in general.
Inb4"RoshiDodgedJiren"
At the cost of burying the actual UI, cos when Goku fails to dodge anything from opponents such as Gas when the power gap between his Saiyan UI and Gas is less than Roshi and Jiren - that shows this is just an anything goes setting. The anything goes thing started at the ToP.batistabus wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:05 am Roshi dodging Jiren is the most impactful example demonstrating that Ultra Instinct is more about skill than raw power.
