Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

[AliTheZombie13]

Or Daima is just bad at pacing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Or it's not. I swear to god this thread is going to drive me up the fucking wall.

It's not the worst, but it's not the best either.
You can like something and acknowledge it has flaws, it's not that hard.

[SupremeKai25]

From the very beginning, this series was pitched as a light-hearted, almost slice of life series. Not a battle-focused series with high, universal stakes like Super.

It seems like some people here just went in thinking this was going to be Super 2.0.

I have no problem with the slower pacing of this show. Perhaps I simply measured my expectations correctly.

If you want a climactic, universal battle in the 4th episode of the first arc, you can just go watch Super. In that series, there's already a major battle in the 4th episode of the first arc (filler/slice of life episodes notwithstanding).

[Yuji]

My only real issues with the pacing are with the unnecessary recap in #01, and feeling like #03 and #04 could have been condensed easily into one episode. I agree they're setting the table but the first part of #04 really felt like it was dragging its feet.

[kemuri07]

Or Daima is just bad at pacing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Or it's not. I swear to god this thread is going to drive me up the fucking wall.

It's not the worst, but it's not the best either.
You can like something and acknowledge it has flaws, it's not that hard.

But that's not what you're doing? Like at all.

More importantly, I can acknowledge that something has flaws, while disagreeing with your sentiments, which is what I'm doing.

Can we stop assuming that I think something has to be perfect for me to defend it? Because you do this a lot and frankly I find it annoying.

From the very beginning this series was pitched as a light-hearted, almost slice of life series. Not a battle-focused series with high, universal stakes like Super.

It seems like some people here just went in thinking that was going to be Super 2.0.

I have no problem with the slower pacing of this show. Perhaps I simply measured my expectations correctly.

If you want a climactic, universal battle in the 4th episode of the first arc, you can just go watch Super. In that series, there's already a major battle in the 4th episode of the first arc (filler/slice of life episodes notwithstanding).

Pretty much this.

[SupremeKai25]

Seeing some of the comments here about how “slow” the arc is, i have no idea how you guys would have managed to deal with the original DB arcs when it was first airing, with no episodes to skip, especially the Pilaf saga and with no emotional attachment to the franchise or nostalgia for it, there is a reason why both the original first two runs of DB failed in the US and they had to pivot to Z, many of you guys just have no patience for world building and just want straight action, it’s fine if you prefer that, but that’s not what Dragon Ball is at it’s core, or at least not what the original(which Daima is trying to evoke)was !

Well I think it was a bit different, those arcs didn’t really have a lot of wasted motion imo. The story in Hunt for the DBs progresses at a very good pace.

I still really like Daima, the pacing complaints are more so tethered to the fact that we are spending time with characters who are seemingly telling us things that have already been covered. Or delivering exposition in a way that’s a bit boring or unnatural.

These are relatively minor complaints though, and I do think that it’s becoming less and less of an issue as the series progresses.

I understand what you mean but it personally doesn’t bother me, at the very least we don’t have to watch movie rehashes with worse animation and pacing like Super’s first two arcs and we are also not following any manga so it’s all fresh material, i guess it’s because i knew what to expect from the start in that’s more of a slice of life nostalgia driven show rather than a super serious show with huge stakes and this is why i don’t really care for them to rush the story along because i don’t think it’s going to go into a Goku Black or Universal Tournament type of arc anyway, i don’t expect to be huge battles and world threatening events in the story or anything like that, i am just along for the ride !

This highlighted part. Quoted for truth.

Look at the Goku Black arc. The first episode is literally a battle, it already drops you midway through the apocalyptic conflict. The ToP arc also quickly goes into a high-stakes battle territory with the Zeno Exhibition Match.

To me it was pretty obvious that this Daima series was going to be a much more light-hearted and relaxed series. We do know from the trailer that there will be a battle at some point, of course, but yeah... this series is clearly not meant to be battle-focused.

[AliTheZombie13]

But that's not what you're doing? Like at all.

More importantly, I can acknowledge that something has flaws, while disagreeing with your sentiments, which is what I'm doing.

Can we stop assuming that I think something has to be perfect for me to defend it? Because you do this a lot and frankly I find it annoying.

I mean, I was responding to someone else who was very rudely calling people who criticize the show "lacking in common sense."
That does give me the impression of blindly defending something while shutting down all form of debate.

[Mr Baggins]

Or it's not. I swear to god this thread is going to drive me up the fucking wall.

I'm glad it's not just me.

Also, I can't say I buy that anyone is actually bothered by the occasional repeated lore bit. That's, like, 2 to 5 seconds of runtime. It's a non-issue.

In general, and this isn't aimed at everyone dissatisfied with Daima, I think it's unfortunate to see the proliferation of these CinemaSins type "critiques" where people are watching all the episodes as if they're on some laser-focused lookout for supposed plotholes or things to complain about. This just isn't constructive or sincere analysis, if you ask me, and nitpicking is pedantry by definition. Consume the material organically and with an open mind, then try to articulate what made you enjoy or not enjoy it.

Basically, I'd tell people to just watch the story unfold. I don't know why the English speaking DB fan community has struggled with this since its inception.

[Jord]

I think that a lot of people got conditioned by the second part of GT, Z and Super that DB is high octane, all action show. When you then go back to the slower paced Daima, it feels different, especially for those that haven't watched OG DB or don't care about.

[JulieYBM]

I think that it's very interesting that the response to "I think this work of art has these flaws" is "These people who have these criticisms of this work of art that I do not have are all making it up."

Like, damn girl, great discussion we have going on here!

Anyway, it's going to be interesting to see how the structure of Episode #5 follows up on this episode. I have a feeling that it's going to feel like Episode #5 should have been the B-Part of this episode's A-Part.

[AliTheZombie13]

I think that a lot of people got conditioned by the second part of GT, Z and Super that DB is high octane, all action show. When you then go back to the slower paced Daima, it feels different, especially for those that haven't watched OG DB or don't care about.

I have watched and loved the original arc, I have also watched and loved the Black Star Saga of GT, which many people hate with a burning passion. I even have Pan with a shot from that same arc as my avatar. Now I'm watching and loving Daima.

The big difference here is, neither Dragon Ball nor GT's Black Star arc ever really felt the need to dwelve too much on the rules of how their universe works or kept having extended 10-minute long recaps. In fact, "GT doesn't explain much" is one of the most frequent complaints I see against it.

I am watching, and I am articulating it right now: This is taking me out of the show.
It's not a deal breaker, but it's definitely an issue.

[JulieYBM]

I think there's too much action. I know that I'm repeating myself, but I definitely think the sparring in the first episode was just cotton candy, and I have to wonder if Glorio's fight with that flying demon was really necessary. Like, I think it was a cool fight, but I don't think that it was really necessary to the plot or as effective an action set piece there. I would have made the final fight at the end of the episode tougher for Gokuu and gang instead, and just kept the plotting moving along earlier.

[super michael]

From the very beginning, this series was pitched as a light-hearted, almost slice of life series. Not a battle-focused series with high, universal stakes like Super.

It seems like some people here just went in thinking this was going to be Super 2.0.

I have no problem with the slower pacing of this show. Perhaps I simply measured my expectations correctly.

If you want a climactic, universal battle in the 4th episode of the first arc, you can just go watch Super. In that series, there's already a major battle in the 4th episode of the first arc (filler/slice of life episodes notwithstanding).

I am happy that Dragon Ball Daima isn't DBS 2.0. I think the comedy, slice of life, action, adventure and fight scenes are actually good. I actually like the writing and the new characters.
Power scale seems to be really good at the moment, I think turning them into kid was a good choice.

Goku and the new character trying to protect the people of the demon realm was good, it shows they care about innocent people being mistreated. They are showing us the new Demon King is greedy and evil.

[StaticMania]

My only real issues with the pacing are with the unnecessary recap in #01, and feeling like #03 and #04 could have been condensed easily into one episode. I agree they're setting the table but the first part of #04 really felt like it was dragging its feet.

I feel like Episodes 2 & 3 could've been condensed into one, not 3 & 4...

4 is the first episode that I feel had actual decent pacing. It felt like enough things were happening at the same time we...(re)learned exposition and establishing what the characters' game plan is.

[LightBing]

This episode pacing was by far the best, it set up a lot of things moving the story along.

- The group decides to chase the Dragon balls, while also revealing a bit more of Glorio's character.
- Items that likely will prove useful ahead are earned. A travelling method as well since flying is out of the picture.
- Goku becomes a fugitive and witnesses the military police.
- Magic collars are introduced, the first sight of magic. It will probably be important for the story with the whole oppressive system.
- A life extracting machine appears. This connects to the first episode when Neva was promised extended life.
- A new character is introduced.
- Glorio's ballpark power tier is revealed. Relevant since this is a battle series after all.

All of the above was done while expanding the World and adding color to it.

Glorio could just have the bugs in his pocket and the store sequence be removed.
The group could have seen the new character get ready to confront the military and just scoop her up, avoiding the fight and the whole populace suffering scene.

It would be faster, it would also make for a worse story and a dimmer World.

The removal of shunkan idõ and constraints on flight is the best Daima has done. This is an RPG without travel points, it's on the nose and I love it.

[Mr Baggins]

I think that it's very interesting that the response to "I think this work of art has these flaws" is "These people who have these criticisms of this work of art that I do not have are all making it up."

I'm not seeing a lot of that.

What I am seeing are some strawman insinuations based on made up positions, such as "the idea that Dragon Ball and its pacing is above the barest levels of criticism is kind of just silly to me" (nobody said otherwise) and "You can like something and acknowledge it has flaws, it's not that hard" (nobody said otherwise).

Nobody in this thread thinks Dragon Ball's pacing is above criticism; most of us just disagree that the criticisms levied here hold any real weight. And while we can probably continue to argue about it, there's not much more of substance to add than "Viewer A enjoys X Y and Z for the same reasons that Viewer B does not enjoy X Y and Z". It's a trivial, meaningless debate at that point.

You can read any one of the dozen or so posts made here if you're curious about why the thing you find worthy of criticism is just a plus for us.

I have to wonder if Glorio's fight with that flying demon was really necessary.

I don't. Glorio oneshotting the demon tells us that he's capable of more than just being a skilled gunslinger, and was a good lead-up to a funny moment where Goku compares his strength to the Supreme Kai, much to the latter's annoyance. And it's... what, a few seconds long?

To the extent that this episode would have been a little more lifeless without it, yeah, I'd say it was necessary.

[The Monkey King]

I genuinely don't understand all the complaints about "pacing" we're only 4 episodes in, there's plenty of episodes for things to pick up.
At first people were complaining about the Buu saga flashbacks in the extended first episode and now it's complaints that Goku isn't fighting the Tamagami already.

Also on the subject of Goku's personality, he's 6 years old now, half the age he was at chapter 1 of the original manga.
Call it headcanon I genuinely don't care but to me that's why he's been acting noticeably childish during Daima.

As for the episode, the nyoi-bo action was good and it was nice to see Goku's sense of justice flair up.

[tonysoprano300]

The pacing is just a minor thing that i noticed while watching, honestly it only hurt my enjoyment in the first episode where a lot of it could have been chopped down to make things tighter .After that point its mostly fine/inoffensive, I love the adventure element of DB and Daima is probably the first time I’ve been thoroughly enjoying a DB product since the release of BOG.

I guess it depends on how others interpreting this criticism, I can only speak for myself but it has nothing to with action or fighting or twists and turns at every corner. Its just whether the story is able to continuously make every scene feel meaningful. Daima is getting very close to accomplishing that so I'm a happy camper personally

[anubisj]

Hey guys, just wanted to offer my input on this;

Firstly, I'm seeing some people getting riled up here, I think there's some misjudging of posts going on. What I'm seeing, some poster made quite a rude comment (as in, "if you don't like a certain thing about Daima you should just not watch the show, some people just lack common sense", said in an, imo, rudely manner), and then someone else answered like "or Daima has bad pacing" which, to me, amounts to "or maybe we are allowed to have our own opinions", which is a valid answer to me, as the other guy was being quite rude. Then some people started getting angry at these complaints...Like, what's wrong with someone not liking Daima pacing?

As far as I can see, nobody is grasping at straws or trying to find things to complain about just for the sake of it. Like, I don't think anyone is "lying" on their perception of the show or trying to disregard things, each of us has an opinion, is all, and I'm pretty sure we all, as Dragon Ball fans first and foremost, would love not to complain or perceive flaws and experience the perfect show, but hey, that happens very rarely, and it's a forum, there's going to be differing opinions, all of them valid. if anything, i think the fuss should be directed at the rude comment from before (I found it quite ill-mannered, to be honest). That's just my two cents.

Back on topic, I'm kind of enjoying Daima, but still wary of what might come, I think there's too few eps yet to get an idea of where this is going. About the pacing, I definitely did not enjoy the 10 min (at least it felt like that) of Boo recap at the beginning, but other than that, it's not bad. It's true that sometimes I wished things were more fast-paced, but it might be because I'm experiencing the series ep by ep, instead of binge-watching after it's finished. Maybe once I do my obligatory rewatch, I will feel differently about it. So far the stakes are pretty low, but the fights are nice.

Basically, what I think Tori is trying to do, he is breaking the limits of Dragon Ball stories after the Piccolo saga, nerfing Goku and Comp, adding new lore to reasses what we know of the universe, and basically just reliving the good old days. It's true that it is retreading some ground (GT comes to mind), but I'm sure that, unlike Tori's recent ideas, this one will turn out to be a new, fresh story (I don't think we are in for some enemy that possesses people or metaphorically fighting the Dragon Balls, at least I hope not, that would remove any interest I have on this...as for the Tamagamis, I don't really know enough to compare them to the Shadow Dragons). In fact, I believe the stakes will not increase considerably from what we have already (unlike GT); I am secretly hoping, though, that somehow there will be a demon invasion on Earth.

All in all, it's being an enjoyable experience, I feel as if Goku just fell on a rabbit hole, and he's meeting all kinds of creatures and people. I'm also excited about the new fusion concept!!! Also I'm digging the designs for the demonic people, they look alien but not just alien, as in, they all have a sinister aura, even though they might be well-meant, good beings at heart, but they do look a bit demonic.

What I'm not entirely buying/enjoying:

-The designs for the Tamagamis, I'm not liking them so far, they look like something cute and too robotic, not fit for something demonic or even powerful. I know that they're creations of Neva, but they could've gone for a more mystical or impactful design, so far it is a bit lacklustre (unless they end up with other forms or whatnot).

-For all the ideas of bringing freshness to Dragon Ball, the items in the RPG shop were all the exact same type as in Earth, barring a few exceptions (like the fusion being apparently done on 3 fighters rather than 2). I think it was a missed opportunity to add new things that can be done, like an item that allows to breathe underwater (let's remember that the Z fighters could all die if underwater for more than a couple min; although they might have this covered afterwards, seeing as one of the Tamagamis apparently lives underwater), or maybe something that allows them to go through surfaces without breaking them, temporarily (as in a "ghost"). Idk, something to add flavor to the Demon World, instead of "same items from Korin but with different names".

-I don't really care for the Tori obsession of a tail that injects itself on a body and absorbs things. I think, since we are in the Demon World, things should be more magical, and maybe a tad less sci-fi for once (talking about the aging machine).

-I wished Glorio was an adult and had a different design, so far he just looks like the cool kid of the block, I think making him an adult to compare against Goku Mini would've been nice, but it does seem like he will play a big part in events to come, so who knows what will happen later (aging machine, anyone?).

Lookign forward to seeing how this story develops.

[Luso Saiyan]

I think that a lot of people got conditioned by the second part of GT, Z and Super that DB is high octane, all action show. When you then go back to the slower paced Daima, it feels different, especially for those that haven't watched OG DB or don't care about.

That's a lot of extrapolation.

Do people not know what pacing means anymore? What does being an action show vs an adventure show got to do with good or bad pacing? People who criticize Daima's pacing are not criticizing Daima for not being action-heavy. An all-action show can have bad pacing. A slow burner show can have good pacing. Even if nothing happens plot-wise, cutting between character groups (Goku & co, Bulma & co, Gomah & co) can dramatically change the pacing of an episode. And that's completely absent, for example. And this is a directorial decision, not a story decision, because there's certainly story going on with those three groups.

[Jord]

The Tamagamis could have a second form. It's DB after all.
I wonder if the series will acknowledge Dabura's face turn after his death. I loved Dabura in heaven.