Super or Daima

[GokuTheMaster389]

Super for me, but I dislike both.

Copying & pasting from GT thread:

Spoiler:

I wanted to write a huge post about this, but I feel so drained from Dragon Ball now... I haven't really enjoyed any of the modern Dragon Ball series/movies since BoG, that I'm starting to question why I bother watching anymore. I just... don't even know what I want from DB anymore if that makes sense? I feel all the effort and love I have is gone now; maybe that's just getting older? Hearing the passing's of VA's, musician, and the creator himself probably hasn't helped.

[Jord]

It does depend a bit on how/if Daima nails the ending.
Super did have the worst ending ever in all of Dragon ball, with Goku pressing a magic remote to erase the bad guy. That being said, with Zamasu being a weak rethread of Ginyu mixed with Turtles, I was glad that it was over. An evil Goku was a great idea, just look at Turles. An evl guy that only looked like Goku but was someone else was done better (and short) in the Ginyu saga.
That ending to it though, it makes the Super 17 saga look like high art. I can't imagine Daima having a worse ending.

[SupremeKai25]

It does depend a bit on how/if Daima nails the ending.
Super did have the worst ending ever in all of Dragon ball, with Goku pressing a magic remote to erase the bad guy. That being said, with Zamasu being a weak rethread of Ginyu mixed with Turtles, I was glad that it was over. An evil Goku was a great idea, just look at Turles. An evl guy that only looked like Goku but was someone else was done better (and short) in the Ginyu saga.
That ending to it though, it makes the Super 17 saga look like high art. I can't imagine Daima having a worse ending.

I don't know how some people can look at this badass villain, with a cool design incorporating both Saiyan and Kaioshin elements, amazing techniques reminiscent of a JRPG, an interesting motivation and origin rooted in the lore of Dragon Ball, and a well-planned and complete character arc, and say

"Ah yes, it's just Captain Ginyu but worse"

Spoiler:

Just the visual aspect alone of Zamasu, how his technique are visualized and how grandiose they are in scale, already puts him above any DBZ villain.

It's very hypocritical that this fandom constantly complains that Super brings back old villains, but when Super does bring in new villains, this fandom does everything in its capability to dismiss anything fresh the new villain brings to the table and just tunnel visions on what the new villain has in common with an older one, which is very little anyway and just nit-picking.

Zamasu and Ginyu have completely different designs, completely different origins, completely different motivations, completely different personality, completely different powers, they're not even the same species, but because both of them stole the same body, that means Zamasu is just a retread of Ginyu. Everything else be damned, everything else can be discarded like trash. This is just too funny.

This fandom does this with Zamasu and it does this with Moro too.

And you know what's funny? I can play this game too, you know. Majin Buu is just Cell but pink. He's a pure evil monster who gets stronger by absorbing people. Freeza is just another alien conqueror who wants immortality like Vegeta. They've even got the same armour, how lame is that? Very lame, but not as lazy as Cell, a villain so lame that he's literally just an amalgam of Freeza and Vegeta.

But nostalgia is going to do its thing again and somehow every old villain was fresh and did not retread previous concepts in any way whatsoever.

[Hugo Boss]

Right now, I prefer Daima. Super’s pacing often felt bloated with filler-like content. That said, I did enjoy Magetta, Hit, Goku Black, Dyspo, Jiren, and the Ultra Instinct fights. If we counted the movies, my preference would be closer, but since we’re talking TV series, Daima easily wins for me.

[AliTheZombie13]

Can I change my vote?
After the last episode, I no longer endorse Daima, it's hit "Just as bad as RoF" tier for me.
I pick Super over it.

[Tian]

Even though I am not fond of Yamamuro's designs and the absurd ending of the Zamasu Arc, I am gonna go with Super.

Daima may have a fantastic art direction and some really good voice castings but I feel the story isn't making a good use of the 20 episode length.

Both series suffer from ilogical and annoying retcons that contradict each other, but Daima's are way worse than Super.

[dbs fanboy]

It does depend a bit on how/if Daima nails the ending.
Super did have the worst ending ever in all of Dragon ball, with Goku pressing a magic remote to erase the bad guy. That being said, with Zamasu being a weak rethread of Ginyu mixed with Turtles, I was glad that it was over. An evil Goku was a great idea, just look at Turles. An evl guy that only looked like Goku but was someone else was done better (and short) in the Ginyu saga.
That ending to it though, it makes the Super 17 saga look like high art. I can't imagine Daima having a worse ending.

I'm with Supreme Kai over here, saying Zamasu is just another Ginyu is incredibly reductive to it's character and what the story was doing with him.

And it's also like saying that Buu is just another Mr Rabbit.

Or Baby is just another Cell mixed with Garlicky Junior and the Guy from Plan to Eradicate Saiyans.

[Jord]

It does depend a bit on how/if Daima nails the ending.
Super did have the worst ending ever in all of Dragon ball, with Goku pressing a magic remote to erase the bad guy. That being said, with Zamasu being a weak rethread of Ginyu mixed with Turtles, I was glad that it was over. An evil Goku was a great idea, just look at Turles. An evl guy that only looked like Goku but was someone else was done better (and short) in the Ginyu saga.
That ending to it though, it makes the Super 17 saga look like high art. I can't imagine Daima having a worse ending.

And it's also like saying that Buu is just another Mr Rabbit.

A bit off-topic but thanks for reminding me of Mr Rabbit. I love those original, wacky DB villains.
(Doesn't mean we need to see Mr Rabbit train and face SSB Goku anytime soon)

[tonysoprano300]

It does depend a bit on how/if Daima nails the ending.
Super did have the worst ending ever in all of Dragon ball, with Goku pressing a magic remote to erase the bad guy. That being said, with Zamasu being a weak rethread of Ginyu mixed with Turtles, I was glad that it was over. An evil Goku was a great idea, just look at Turles. An evl guy that only looked like Goku but was someone else was done better (and short) in the Ginyu saga.
That ending to it though, it makes the Super 17 saga look like high art. I can't imagine Daima having a worse ending.

an interesting motivation and origin rooted in the lore of Dragon Ball, and a well-planned and complete character arc

.....He wants to genocide all mortals and the reason he gives is completely absurd to the point where its almost comical. Legitimately, what is interesting or thought provoking about that? Goku Black is very cool, dont get me wrong. Love his design and how ominous he is(Anime Version) but he's not a particularly complex character at all. Which is ok, but i just dont really see why people try to prop him up as such

[SupremeKai25]

It does depend a bit on how/if Daima nails the ending.
Super did have the worst ending ever in all of Dragon ball, with Goku pressing a magic remote to erase the bad guy. That being said, with Zamasu being a weak rethread of Ginyu mixed with Turtles, I was glad that it was over. An evil Goku was a great idea, just look at Turles. An evl guy that only looked like Goku but was someone else was done better (and short) in the Ginyu saga.
That ending to it though, it makes the Super 17 saga look like high art. I can't imagine Daima having a worse ending.

an interesting motivation and origin rooted in the lore of Dragon Ball, and a well-planned and complete character arc

.....He wants to genocide all mortals and the reason he gives is completely absurd to the point where its almost comical. Legitimately, what is interesting or thought provoking about that? Goku Black is very cool, dont get me wrong. Love his design and how ominous he is(Anime Version) but he's not a particularly complex character at all. Which is ok, but i just dont really see why people try to prop him up as such

He wants to genocide all mortals because he believes their constant warring is ruining the universe, which we know is factually correct because we see throughout the entirety of DBZ that mortals have a penchant for invading planets, despoiling and destroying them, and fighting each other in general. Where Zamasu sinned, himself, was when he decided to be inefficient and kill all the mortals by his own hand, instead of just wishing them away with the Super Dragon Balls.

Yeah, I find that motivation far more interesting than "me big, me strong, me destroy Earth mwahaha" which describes 99% of DBZ villains.

And anyway, Zamasu is unique among Dragon Ball villains because he's the only one who started out good and has an inner psychological conflict. I know this for a fact, because it's what Toriyama said. You can check my signature for reference.

[tonysoprano300]

an interesting motivation and origin rooted in the lore of Dragon Ball, and a well-planned and complete character arc

.....He wants to genocide all mortals and the reason he gives is completely absurd to the point where its almost comical. Legitimately, what is interesting or thought provoking about that? Goku Black is very cool, dont get me wrong. Love his design and how ominous he is(Anime Version) but he's not a particularly complex character at all. Which is ok, but i just dont really see why people try to prop him up as such

He wants to genocide all mortals because he believes their constant warring is ruining the universe, which we know is factually correct because we see throughout the entirety of DBZ that mortals have a penchant for invading planets, despoiling and destroying them, and fighting each other in general. Where Zamasu sinned, himself, was when he decided to be inefficient and kill all the mortals by his own hand, instead of just wishing them away with the Super Dragon Balls.

Yeah, I find that motivation far more interesting than "me big, me strong, me destroy Earth mwahaha" which describes 99% of DBZ villains.

And anyway, Zamasu is unique among Dragon Ball villains because he's the only one who started out good and has an inner psychological conflict. I know this for a fact, because it's what Toriyama said. You can check my signature for reference.

Gods do that too, Freeza(one of the mortals ruining the universe) destroyed Vegeta at the behest of Beerus and is generally subservient to him. Zeno is liable to wipe out the multiverse because he's in a bad mood. If the gods themselves dgaf about desecrating the lands they create then why should mortals? If his argument is that its ok when gods do it, then he's just xenophobic against mortals. There's nothing interesting about that, its not as if he has a reasonable position that we're meant to consider. Especially in the DB universe where God is a designation and mortals become Gods all the time.

Toppo would be a much better example of a character who actually has understandable moral grounds in opposition to Goku, where one could actually argue that Toppo is right. Thats way more interesting than Goku Black.

[SupremeKai25]

Gods do that too,

Well yeah, that's kind of the point of why Zamasu is a well-constructed villain. Because he's hypocritical, and while he allegedly wants to protect the gods from mortals, he ends up massacring his fellow gods too.

The best-constructed villains are those who see themselves as heroes, yet are utterly delusional and oblivious to their own flaws and contradictions.

Not sure how that shows Zamasu's worse than the monsters of boring old DBZ.

There's nothing interesting about that

You asked my opinion on why I find Zamasu more interesting than monster of the week #10 who wants to eat and/or kill people for fun. I gave it to you. Do what you want with it.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

My vote goes to Daima, not because it's necessarily better, but because it's far shorter. Both have the same issues, it's just that one is 20 episodes long, while the other is over 130.

[super michael]

DBS I like it that Piccolo and Gohan got their unique forms, which makes them more power. Piccolo didn't let his pride get in the way to gain power from Shenron unlocking his potential.

The villains, Future Trunks return and humans being relevant was good. ToP and multiple universe, GoD, Angels, etc was good.


However even with all those good things about DBS, I will still have to say Daima is better. The characters themselves are important and this is were I feel DBS fails. How the characters were written didn't feel like a continuation from the Boo Saga, it felt like a reboot instead due to the characters downgrade and increasing their negative flaws to maximum level.

DBS problem was they didn't know when to stop, they continued doing the same thing over and over until it just got old. Goku being stupid got old along with Boo falling asleep, Chi Chi being a control freak and Goten and Trunks being forbidden.

[tonysoprano300]

Gods do that too,

Well yeah, that's kind of the point of why Zamasu is a well-constructed villain. Because he's hypocritical, and while he allegedly wants to protect the gods from mortals, he ends up massacring his fellow gods too.

The best-constructed villains are those who see themselves as heroes, yet are utterly delusional and oblivious to their own flaws and contradictions.

Not sure how that shows Zamasu's worse than the monsters of boring old DBZ.

There's nothing interesting about that

You asked my opinion on why I find Zamasu more interesting than monster of the week #10 who wants to eat and/or kill people for fun. I gave it to you. Do what you want with it.

I mean its an obvious hypocrisy that's never addressed in any way, so Zamasu is just a xenophobic genocidal maniac who's philosophy doesn't even stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. To each his own, if you find that compelling I'm not here to rain on that parade. I just personally don't see a meaningful difference between that and a typical bad guy but I will acknowledge that Goku Black is very cool

[SupremeKai25]

I mean its an obvious hypocrisy that's never addressed in any way, so Zamasu is just a xenophobic genocidal maniac who's philosophy doesn't even stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. To each his own, if you find that compelling I'm not here to rain on that parade. I just personally don't see a meaningful difference between that and a typical bad guy but I will acknowledge that Goku Black is very cool

Typical bad guy = I'm evil because I want to kill people/enslave people/eat people, that's fun. So what?

Zamasu = I'm not evil, I'm actually a hero, look at me committing genocide. I'm such a hero.

I think there's a clear difference between a villain like Zamasu, a self-deluded extremist from a "good" race, and villains like Freeza/Cell/Buu, who are just weird alien monsters. I find Zamasu infinitely more entertaining and funnier than those old villains from that 30 yo old series.

BTW, Trunks and Gowasu absolutely call out Zamasu on his BS. Trunks tells him that he cannot speak about right or wrong when he committed genocide of his planet. Gowasu tells Zamasu that his philosophy doesn't make sense because he killed the other gods too.

And these are unique dynamics that wouldn't have happened with a boring, generic villain who's just evil for the sake of pure evil (like the old villains).

[tonysoprano300]

I mean its an obvious hypocrisy that's never addressed in any way, so Zamasu is just a xenophobic genocidal maniac who's philosophy doesn't even stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. To each his own, if you find that compelling I'm not here to rain on that parade. I just personally don't see a meaningful difference between that and a typical bad guy but I will acknowledge that Goku Black is very cool

Typical bad guy = I'm evil because I want to kill people/enslave people/eat people, that's fun. So what?

Zamasu = I'm not evil, I'm actually a hero, look at me committing genocide. I'm such a hero.

I think there's a clear difference between a villain like Zamasu, a self-deluded extremist from a "good" race, and villains like Freeza/Cell/Buu, who are just weird alien monsters. I find Zamasu infinitely more entertaining and funnier than those old villains from that 30 yo old series.

BTW, Trunks and Gowasu absolutely call out Zamasu on his BS. Trunks tells him that he cannot speak about right or wrong when he committed genocide of his planet. Gowasu tells Zamasu that his philosophy doesn't make sense because he killed the other gods too.

And these are unique dynamics that wouldn't have happened with a boring, generic villain who's just evil for the sake of pure evil (like the old villains).

These are differences but they arent meaningful in the sense that the audience will ever begin to see them as complex characters who do bad things for an understandable moral impulse. A character seeing themselves as a hero doesnt automatically make them complex, there has to be something there for the audience to resonate with. Otherwise its just fake complexity, he's still absolute pure evil at the end of the day with no redeeming qualities whatsoever and so we never have to pause and think about anything he says.

There is the potential in the concept of him that I can agree with but I just dont care if the execution is lacking. I do agree, DB villain's aren't typically deep but I dont see Zamasu being the solution to any of those past issues.(Although Like I said before, Toppo is a favorite of mine because he has a totally understandable and perhaps even justified attitude towards Goku. So DBS has better examples)

[SupremeKai25]

I mean its an obvious hypocrisy that's never addressed in any way, so Zamasu is just a xenophobic genocidal maniac who's philosophy doesn't even stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. To each his own, if you find that compelling I'm not here to rain on that parade. I just personally don't see a meaningful difference between that and a typical bad guy but I will acknowledge that Goku Black is very cool

Typical bad guy = I'm evil because I want to kill people/enslave people/eat people, that's fun. So what?

Zamasu = I'm not evil, I'm actually a hero, look at me committing genocide. I'm such a hero.

I think there's a clear difference between a villain like Zamasu, a self-deluded extremist from a "good" race, and villains like Freeza/Cell/Buu, who are just weird alien monsters. I find Zamasu infinitely more entertaining and funnier than those old villains from that 30 yo old series.

BTW, Trunks and Gowasu absolutely call out Zamasu on his BS. Trunks tells him that he cannot speak about right or wrong when he committed genocide of his planet. Gowasu tells Zamasu that his philosophy doesn't make sense because he killed the other gods too.

And these are unique dynamics that wouldn't have happened with a boring, generic villain who's just evil for the sake of pure evil (like the old villains).

These are differences but they arent meaningful in the sense that the audience will ever begin to see them as complex characters who do bad things for an understandable moral impulse.

I didn't say any of that stuff, so you are arguing with someone who isn't me.

[tonysoprano300]

Typical bad guy = I'm evil because I want to kill people/enslave people/eat people, that's fun. So what?

Zamasu = I'm not evil, I'm actually a hero, look at me committing genocide. I'm such a hero.

I think there's a clear difference between a villain like Zamasu, a self-deluded extremist from a "good" race, and villains like Freeza/Cell/Buu, who are just weird alien monsters. I find Zamasu infinitely more entertaining and funnier than those old villains from that 30 yo old series.

BTW, Trunks and Gowasu absolutely call out Zamasu on his BS. Trunks tells him that he cannot speak about right or wrong when he committed genocide of his planet. Gowasu tells Zamasu that his philosophy doesn't make sense because he killed the other gods too.

And these are unique dynamics that wouldn't have happened with a boring, generic villain who's just evil for the sake of pure evil (like the old villains).

These are differences but they arent meaningful in the sense that the audience will ever begin to see them as complex characters who do bad things for an understandable moral impulse.

I didn't say any of that stuff, so you are arguing with someone who isn't me.

Generally if you say has an interesting motivation, I make the assumption that there is supposed to be something worth analyzing in there. But if you just meant that he's a different flavor of pure evil then sure.

[SupremeKai25]

Generally if you say has an interesting motivation, I make the assumption that there is supposed to be something worth analyzing in there. But if you just meant that he's a different flavor of pure evil then sure.

I said it's an interesting motivation because he's correct that mortals constantly war against each other and despoil nature. You don't even need to look at Dragon Ball to understand this.

I didn't say he was doing the right thing. I even said he sinned himself when he decided to go about his plan in such a crude and inefficient way, when he could have just used the Super Dragon Balls to erase mortals and start over. (which is literally Zeno and the Grand Priest's plan in the following arc)

Genuine question: why did you even ask my opinion on Zamasu? I don't see you ever changing your mind that, maybe, Zamasu is better than those old childhood villains.