SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku

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Xyex
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Post by Xyex » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:00 am

Kaioshin basically referred to Freeza as a pathetic scrub.
When Pui Pui started showing off, Kaioshin freaked out and started talking about teamwork. And Vegeta still effortlessly takes Pui Pui down. Again, Kaioshin said he could have taken Freeza out in one hit. Not "could have probably beaten in a fight." One. Single. Blow. So unless he's lying out the ass, he's at least as strong as SSJ Trunks when he first showed up.

So someone as strong as a run of the mill SSJ1 would come face to face with someone of, as Horgus put it, Kewi's level and be afraid? THAT is the single most ridiculous assumption I've heard in this thread.

Do you have a conflicting quote or specific flaw in the evidence? If so I'd love to hear it. That's the point of a debate. But if not, I take offense to the implication of stupidity based on a gut feeling of "Nahhh Pui Pui didn't seem that badass."
Well, before I get started on the evidence against this notion, I'll go over the previously mentioned evidence for it. 1) The Supreme Kai's statement. 2) Uh... there is no two.

Alright then. Let's go for the evidence against it now. First of all, I'm sure we can all agree on this one point at least. The Supreme Kai's ki sensing skills... for lack of a better word... blow. Let's face it, he was face to face with SSJ2 Gohan at the tourament. He's got first had experience with that power. And yet he's afraid of Pui Pui?

Obviously base Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan because obviously Pui Pui is stronger than what he sensed from Gohan at the tournament. Of course, we know this not to be true, so obviously there must be some other thing at work here. Why, then, would the Supreme Kai freak out over Pui Pui if he's witnessed a power far greater than the alien's?

It's pretty simple, really. Pui Pui wasn't just some alien. He was an alien under Babidi's control. He was a Majin. He was the one thing the Supreme Kai feared in the entire universe. He's 'Majinphobic' if you will. And why wouldn't he be? He witnessed Majin Buu decimate a large portion of the universe and completely overwhelm and kill his fellow Kais.

So, the Supreme Kai's terror is completely and utterly self induced from phobia. He's standing feet away from several beings more powerful than Pui Pui. He's witnessed Gohan's SSJ2 power before. If he had any true ki sensing abilities or paid any kind of attention to what was going on he'd already know that Pui Pui was pathetically weak compred to himself and his allies.

The Supreme Kai never, during the course of the entire series, shows any kind of aptitude with ki sensing. He's wrong. Every time. Over and over again. His comments should basicly be ignored because he's about as good an indicator as asking Hercule.
Horgus and caejones, being comfortable in "only" 10gs has nothing to do with power- put Goku in a 400g environment and suddenly Vegeta would have an advantage. Gravity training is similar in theory to weighted training. You get used to a higher level, and you find yourself that much faster, stronger, and more durable when restored to normal levels. And the only thing they say on Pui Pui is that his homeworld was 10 times earth gravity. They failed because they didn't know Vegeta had gone through intense gravity training, not because Pui Pui "could only handle..."
This would be the other point against that kind of power being needed. Your point is decent, but invalid. It was invalidated earlier in the story when Trunks was in with Vegeta. Trunks was walking with only slight trouble in 150Gs. Then he transformed into a Super Saiya-jin and 150Gs became like nothing to him. Obviously power is enough to override the effects of high gravity.

The fact Pui Pui assumed that 10Gs would be enough to incapacitate or slow Vegeta to the point he could defeat him speaks volumes about his own power. If he was exceptionally powerful he would know that Vegeta was as well, just by how easily he was being knocked around, and he would know that 10Gs would not have the effect he assumed it would.
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Post by Onikage725 » Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:12 am

My point is that the gravity difference is irrelevant to "power level," outside of a training technique. You seem fixated on it, as if to imply that anyone who didn't gravity train must be weak.

Hell, gravity training only even comes into play because of Vegeta in this scenario. I'm not even sure why we're approaching this from the angle of 0what Pui Pui could handle. When Pui Pui was failing to land any blows, Babidi remembers that Pui Pui's home planet had greater gravity than earth. And since Babidi knew dick all about Saiyans, he assumed Vegeta was just a kickass earthling, and that finding himself under 10 times the gravitational pull pull would mess him up.

EDIT based on Xyex's post- Let me rephrase slightly- You're looking at it from *our* perspective. Look at it from Babidi's. We see Trunks skip around (was that in the manga btw? I forget) but Babidi didn't. Ignorance =/= weakness. Babidi saw Vegeta as an "earthling" and thought 10gs would be rough on him. That is all we can ascertain from that.

I accept your Majinphobic explanation. I do offer this though- when Gohan powered up at the tournament, we know for a fact he wasn't giving his best by any means. Vegeta says he's weaker than when he fought Cell. Later Goku hints that Dabura is tougher than Cell, and Gohan at SSJ1 goes to blows with him (albeit without making any headway). To Horgus, I say SSJ1 because SSJ2's trademark lightning is not present, at least in the anime. Correct me if it is in the manga. Anyway, for Gohan to do this, either he's running entirely on skill, or he managed to put forth more in his comfortable FPSSJ state than in his unfamiliar and unmotivated change to SSJ2 (keeping in mind that against Cell he was VERY motivated). Basically, at the tournament, he was "at rest."
Now let's look at Kaioshin- being scared is one thing, but it was suggested in this forum that Pui Pui was on Kewi's level. My god, Kuririn wets his pants all the time in the later saga, but he's not even that bad. And this is a god. Also, at the tournament, he was able to contain Gohan's strength. So he obviously, for whatever reason, wasn't dealing with the full measure of an SSJ2. Either that, or he's close to SSJ2 moreso than 1 on the power scale, which makes Pui Pui being late Saiyan Saga level even harder to swallow.
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Post by vicdmx » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:20 am

SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ3 Goku. :roll:

There´s no need to debate about this.
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Post by VegettoEX » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:22 am

vicdmx wrote:SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ3 Goku. :roll:

There´s no need to debate about this.
VegettoEX wrote:There is very rarely productive conversation that comes out of basic "versus" threads, and as such, they are very promptly closed. As with other threads of this type, I will keep a close eye on it, and will not hesitate to close it if degenerates into nothingness.

(I realize I'm quoting this from another thread, but it's relevant.) While there's no actual rule against it, per se, I personally frown upon the expression of actual sentences as little more than algebraic equations. We really do ask that people put some actual content into their posts and responses, and it just doesn't seem like there's much effort in [character/technique] [relation] [character/technique].
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