Opinion of Sabat?

[Captain Awesome]

Some people just don't like synthesized "X-treme" music. In my opinion it's the equivalent of scrapping the Star Wars soundtrack and instead adding a bunch of music from My Chemical Romance.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[MajinVejitaXV]

That scene, and the entire episode 191 are the two occasions where I can honestly say that the dub trumped the Japanese version

Jeez, I hate Nadolny's Gohan. It sounds like Saffron Henderson's version, only with the voice actress having gargled gravel for a week. If I ever met a kid that sounded like that in real life, I think I'd punch them in the throat

As for the Vegeta scene, what "trumps" the Japanese version? The added dialogue that completely fucks the character development?

N- no! He- Cell is not going to be defeated by that lower-class warrior Kakarrot, nor his son! It's going...It's going to be by me!

How could I let this happen to my son? He has sacrificed everything for me and I have done nothing but ignore him! No, I won't give up on him! There is still time to change things! Cell has crossed me for the last time! He has tricked me in battle, mocked my Saiyan ancestry, but this...this time he has gone too far! He will pay the ultimate price for what he has done to my son!

Vegeta's metamorphosis from Villain to Hero is much, much slower than FUNimation makes it out to be. At this point Vegeta was just barely starting to show some heroic attributes. Was he angry that Cell killed Trunks? Yes. However, it wasn't because he was overwhelmed with regret for ignoring his son or anything of that sort, it was because he seemed to view things from a prospective of "You've all fucked this up, I'm the one who will finish this."

It's just like his death in the Freeza saga. Vegeta was a cold-hearted bastard in both cases, and FUNimation tried to portray him in a softer light (which ultimately detracts from when he really does become a better man). Vegeta didn't flick a switch and become a nice guy, he's just barely starting to awaken to the importance of others (something that plays an integral part in his role in the Boo arc) but is still focused on himself primarily. Arguably the episode after next when Vegeta finally stops thinking of himself and joins with the others to attack Cell, giving Gohan the opening he needs to win, is the first selfless act he see Vegeta perform. Seemingly, that act leads Vegeta to become a somewhat different person by the time we see him again after the 7 years have passed.

__________________

As for Sabat in general, I feel like the man was miscast in many cases. I say this having seen the UUE dub and so on. He did, very much, improve himself, however I simply didn't believe him in the roles of Piccolo and Vegeta. To me, that's the true mark of an actor. DragonBall/Z/GT may not be realistic, but when I watch the Japanese version I can actually believe that there's an arrogant, murderous bastard who starts out with a heart of stone and eventually evolves to being a good person. In the English version, I simply don't get the same feeling. It may be a combination of the scripts, music and vocal performances.

And as for the person who mentioned Drummond, I agree that Drummond's voice was no more fitting than Sabat's. The only difference is, with his ability as an actor, I could see Drummond fitting with proper direction (he certainly nailed Vegeta's psychotic breaks and screams). Sabat, I believe, simply cannot portray the character in the most fitting manner. This isn't mean to be offensive either, many actors can't portray many roles.

-Corey

[SSJ2bardock]

Some people just don't like synthesized "X-treme" music. In my opinion it's the equivalent of scrapping the Star Wars soundtrack and instead adding a bunch of music from My Chemical Romance.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

So then why is it so hard to believe that some people just don't like the goofy, really old sounding music that the Japanese version has?

[Raki]

Some people just don't like synthesized "X-treme" music. In my opinion it's the equivalent of scrapping the Star Wars soundtrack and instead adding a bunch of music from My Chemical Romance.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

So then why is it so hard to believe that some people just don't like the goofy, really old sounding music that the Japanese version has?

That music potrays Dragonball as a timeless classic...that's why it may come off as "old" sounding to many.

[Captain Awesome]

Some people just don't like synthesized "X-treme" music. In my opinion it's the equivalent of scrapping the Star Wars soundtrack and instead adding a bunch of music from My Chemical Romance.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

So then why is it so hard to believe that some people just don't like the goofy, really old sounding music that the Japanese version has?

Because if you're calling it "goofy" you clearly haven't listened to it, sure it's got it's light-hearted moments, but I personally find cheap poorly composed synth far more goofy than an orchestral score.

[SSJ2bardock]

I couldn't have put it better myself.

So then why is it so hard to believe that some people just don't like the goofy, really old sounding music that the Japanese version has?

Because if you're calling it "goofy" you clearly haven't listened to it, sure it's got it's light-hearted moments, but I personally find cheap poorly composed synth far more goofy than an orchestral score.

I have in fact listened to it, I went through and watched my entire Season 5 set with the Japanese BGM on. And yes, I did think it was goofy and unbearable at times. I know the dub tracks can be over the top sometimes and they shouldn't have music playing all the time, but at least it fits the mood sometimes. With the Japanese music it never feels like it fits to me.

DISCLAIMER
These are my opinions, not fact.[/b]

[Chrono Trigger]

I know the dub tracks can be over the top sometimes and they shouldn't have music playing all the time, but at least it fits the mood sometimes.

That's how I feel about it too. A perfect example for me would be the music they played when Goku turned Super Saiyan for the first time. I couldn't believe out of all the bgm's they had they picked that one. It really just makes the scene weird and awkward for me. I love the Original score but sometimes they just make some weird choices. That and they reuse a lot of the same stuff.

[Raki]

I know the dub tracks can be over the top sometimes and they shouldn't have music playing all the time, but at least it fits the mood sometimes.

That's how I feel about it too. A perfect example for me would be the music they played when Goku turned Super Saiyan for the first time. I couldn't believe out of all the bgm's they had they picked that one. It really just makes the scene weird and awkward for me. I love the Original score but sometimes they just make some weird choices. That and they reuse a lot of the same stuff.

Too bad Bruce made a lot of different tracks that had the overall same sound and feeling....that it was just background music and nothing more. He made it feel like the tracks were there to take up time just so Gen could charge Cartoon Network for every minute it's played.

[Chrono Trigger]

Too bad Bruce made a lot of different tracks that had the overall same sound and feeling....that it was just background music and nothing more. He made it feel like the tracks were there to take up time just so Gen could charge Cartoon Network for every minute it's played.

Well I don't know about that but sometimes Bruce's music fit the mood and sometimes it did it better than original. Sometimes....

[Nikkolas]

Majin, in regards to Vegeta hero or villain, you seem to have forgotten even in the Funi dub he was cackling happily when he thought Goku was dead and he was the strongest being still alive.
Had it all ended with Frieza, Vegeta would have been still very much a villain.

[Gozar]

f you are watching the anime of Dragon Ball, you are watching a product created by Toei (based on the story of Akira Toriyama), and therefore when it comes to the anime of Dragon Ball the characters become their characters (not Funimation's), and therefore the decisions on how characters should sound are theirs (not Funimation's). You don't like the adaptation Toei did of the original manga and how they brought some of the characters to life? Well, too bad. Still, that doesn't give Funimation the right to "improve" anything. Appearently now dubbing companies have the right to completely change a character if they think the way the original sounds is not appropriate? Are we crazy?

How arrogant can you be? To say that a subjective matter is cut and dry in your favor is a prime example of how NOT to debate. Toei does not decide who the characters are. Based on what Toei has done in the movies, Kuririn's character IS a babbling character that deserves mocking just like FUNi seems to do. You can't just pick and choose what aspects of Toei's creative license with characters goes. It's either all fact or all opinion.

And indeed my example is like yours. You said voicing a character is very subjective and that Gokuh could very well have had a different voice. Of course. If he had had a different voice, then that's the way he should sound (or at least act and emote) when being dubbed to another language. And Vegeta could have been a different character, and that's they way he should be in the English dub. So what? Thing is, it happens that Gokuh has Nozawa's voice, and Vegeta has Horikawa's voice, and Vegeta is how he is. Speculating how they could have sound if, if, if, if, if whatever is absurd. They sound the way they sound. Period.

Comparing an actress not auditioning for a role and a drunk Toriyama writing Vegeta completely different over a span of 6'ish years are vastly different situations. If all you're going to do os try and downplay everything I say with an example that makes no sense then you clearly have no respect for someone who has a different opinion than you.

Besides, do you actually think that's the reason why all the freakin' characters in the dub sound different? The only reason Vegeta and Piccolo sound like that in the dub is they didn't want poor little kids to get confused. Having a bad guy sounding like a perfectly normal person? A green alien with a human, natural voice? They wouldn't understand!

Oh god. For over 10 years this has been the lame excuse that people always use when downing FUNi. FUNi thinks kids are stupid. Why does Goku say heroic things? Because FUNi thinks kids are stupid. Why is the music changed? Because FUNi thinks kids are stupid. Why are the voices they way they are? Because FUNi thinks kids are stupid. It was a lame answer in 1996 and it's still lame today.

Why do Piccolo and Vegeta sound gruff? Because the English directors felt like it. They felt it was a better move and I agree.

Well in Nozawa's case, Toriyama personally picked her out, and said that while drawing the manga he imagined Goku speaking in her voice, and that he couldn't imagine anyone else voicing Goku.

I'm aware of this. Which is why I used her as an example specifically. What if she didn't want the role?

Vegeta's metamorphosis from Villain to Hero is much, much slower than FUNimation makes it out to be. At this point Vegeta was just barely starting to show some heroic attributes. Was he angry that Cell killed Trunks? Yes. However, it wasn't because he was overwhelmed with regret for ignoring his son or anything of that sort, it was because he seemed to view things from a prospective of "You've all fucked this up, I'm the one who will finish this."

GAH!!!...*Sobs like a baby*...For the 8 Millionth time. That whole thing in the JP Version of the Anime was 100% Toei. Completely fabrication. Toriyama's Manga had it being all about Trunks. It was going to be Vegeta's big character development moment. Toei screwed that up. Funimation, intentional or not. FIXED, Toei's screw up.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Vegeta's metamorphosis from Villain to Hero is much, much slower than FUNimation makes it out to be. At this point Vegeta was just barely starting to show some heroic attributes. Was he angry that Cell killed Trunks? Yes. However, it wasn't because he was overwhelmed with regret for ignoring his son or anything of that sort, it was because he seemed to view things from a prospective of "You've all fucked this up, I'm the one who will finish this."

GAH!!!...*Sobs like a baby*...For the 8 Millionth time. That whole thing in the JP Version of the Anime was 100% Toei. Completely fabrication. Toriyama's Manga had it being all about Trunks. It was going to be Vegeta's big character development moment. Toei screwed that up. Funimation, intentional or not. FIXED, Toei's screw up.

Not at all. Toei was a lot closer than FUNimation. In the manga, Vegeta simply says Trunks' name twice and then yells and flies at Cell. He doesn't drone on for 5 minutes with a bunch of sap, like the English version. Toei may have added a little dialogue, but it's a lot more consistent with the manga than FUNimation's paragraph that they added.

-Corey

[Kaboom]

Wait, I don't get it. In the manga, he thought about Trunks. In the dub, he thought a little more, but still about Trunks. But in the Japanese anime, he thought of something completely different? It looks like, surprisingly, the original dub is the odd man out.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Wait, I don't get it. In the manga, he thought about Trunks. In the dub, he thought a little more, but still about Trunks. But in the Japanese anime, he thought of something completely different? It looks like, surprisingly, the original dub is the odd man out.

Not really.

Manga. He said Trunks' name twice, jumped at Cell.

JP Anime. He says Trunks' name, gets furious and declares that he will be the one to stop Cell, not Goku or Gohan.

EN Anime. Vegeta rambles on for the entire length of the scene about how he loves his son and how he's failed him, how he can still change himself, etc.

Just a matter of choice. I like the subtle change Japanese Vegeta shows, he shows some feelings but is still himself, as opposed to the complete hard-stop and 180 turn that English Vegeta exhibits.

-Corey

[Kaboom]

I see. I'll have to check the scene myself sometime soon.

[Tsukento]

I have in fact listened to it, I went through and watched my entire Season 5 set with the Japanese BGM on. And yes, I did think it was goofy and unbearable at times. I know the dub tracks can be over the top sometimes and they shouldn't have music playing all the time, but at least it fits the mood sometimes. With the Japanese music it never feels like it fits to me.

DISCLAIMER
These are my opinions, not fact.

Do you know why? Because the dub is NOT the same as the original. FUNimation has changed Dragon Ball Z in such a way that it DOESN'T resemble the original. From the corny and added dialogue, to the script changes, to even the voice presentations (the narrator being one); DBZ dubbed is NOT the same as the original. It's not presented as being the same and is more of its own thing.

People who come into the series watching only the dub are obviously going to think the original music is out of place. Why? Because FUNi put too much effort into presenting the series as being "hardcore" and trying to be more serious than it really is. Contrary to popular belief, DBZ is NOT just all about action and beating the shit out of everyone. Yeah, it has a lot more action than Dragon Ball did, but there's still some form of story packed away in there with characters who develop.

Remember, this is the same dub that made Vegeta cry because Freeza "took him away from his father" and "threatened to kill his father if he didn't do as he said" thus trying to make it seem like Vegeta was only evil because of Freeza. This is the same dub that ignored the fact that Trunks refers to the Artificial Humans as Cyborgs and NOT robots. The same dub that has the narrator give every single last detail about what happened in the last episode with a deep, ridiculous voice despite there being visual aid in the recap, as well as recapping something we just saw a moment ago before the episode ends.

[SSJ2bardock]

Yes, I do in fact know why it doesn't feel like it fits, because to me it doesn't sound right to have some ridiculous springing sound going off in the background when two universally strong fighters are staring eachother down, IT DOESN'T SET THE MOOD AT ALL. Just because the dub is different doesn't mean it's stupid. Why do fans of the original feel it's their civil duty to downplay and trash everything that the dub does? It's like I'm not allowed to like it or something.

And as far as the story not being all about fighting and action: I know that, where did that even play into the mix and what did that have to do with the music?

Are fans of the dub not allowed to have their own thoughts and preferences when it comes to Dragonball?

So what if it's a cyborg and not an "android", they aren't human and that's what you need to know because we still get the same general idea and so what if they tweaked Vegeta's speech to Freeza, we're still getting the same general idea.

[Gozar]

Not at all. Toei was a lot closer than FUNimation. In the manga, Vegeta simply says Trunks' name twice and then yells and flies at Cell. He doesn't drone on for 5 minutes with a bunch of sap, like the English version. Toei may have added a little dialogue, but it's a lot more consistent with the manga than FUNimation's paragraph that they added.

-Corey

In the JP Anime, Vegeta goes on his typical pride binge. Trunks death takes a complete back seat and dampers a very important character development moment for Vegeta. The Dub makes it all about Trunks just as Toriyama intended.

Just a matter of choice. I like the subtle change Japanese Vegeta shows, he shows some feelings but is still himself, as opposed to the complete hard-stop and 180 turn that English Vegeta exhibits.

Come on, that's bull and you know it. The JP Anime was not a "subtle" change. It's the JP Anime that did the 180.

[VegettoEX]

On-topic, please.

[Tsukento]

And as far as the story not being all about fighting and action: I know that, where did that even play into the mix and what did that have to do with the music?

Fits into the whole idea that FUNi tries playing DBZ off as something hardcore and nothing but action. Look at how they tried playing off GT with its opening and ads.

Are fans of the dub not allowed to have their own thoughts and preferences when it comes to Dragonball?

They are, but to say it "doesn't fit" when the dub is no where like the original is where it gets problematic.

So what if it's a cyborg and not an "android", they aren't human

False. A cyborg is a HUMAN with robotic parts. #17 and #18 are humans with nanomachines in their bodies to give them never ending energy. An android is a ROBOT made to look human.

and that's what you need to know because we still get the same general idea

No, it's not. They're two completely different things and it gets especially annoying when FUNi kept having Vegeta say nonsense about them being mechanical.

and so what if they tweaked Vegeta's speech to Freeza, we're still getting the same general idea.

Once again, not the same. Not the same at all. None of that happened in Vegeta's actual past. Vegeta is who he is because he's a Saiyan. Not because of Freeza. Vegeta did not care that his father was dead. He only cared about himself as a Saiyan warrior. His speech to Goku in the original is about making Freeza feel humiliated by being beaten at the hands of a Saiyan. NOT for revenge for killing all of the Saiyans. Vegeta showed a moment of weakness in the original because he was begging the one guy he looked down upon completely to actually beat someone he himself could not beat. NOT because Freeza took him away from daddy and still killed him.

Vegeta was not actually a softy the whole time. Not only was the dialogue in the dub out of character, but it ended up conflicting with events that occur later in the series.